Skyrim is bad as an RPG, but would have been decent as an action adventure: Discuss

Legendsmith

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(Original Thread title: Skyrim shouldn't be classified as an RPG: Discuss)

This thread was brought about by the following post:
Andrew_J_Drake said:
For me it is a tie between Kingdom Hearts:Birth by Sleep(for better controls and combat systems than the console offerings) and the Elder Scrolls:Skyrim(Because its freaking massive and the executions).
You're judging the best RPG a role playing game by it's combat system and size?
For shame!
What you are doing is akin to judging a car by the quality of the seats and ignoring the rest of the car.

If you want to judge a game by its combat system there are plenty of hack and slash/shoot, etc games out there, Magicka being a prime example with its magic system. Hell, there are other games that are fantasy RPGs, like Skyrim, with are far better combat system than Skyrim.Mount & Blade Warband; to name one So it fails there anyway!

Skyrim is definitely not the best RPG because there is a distinct lack of roleplaying and well, character to the characters. Lydia is a prime example. She has no real character to speak of. At no point can I speak to lydia about what she thinks of what's going on or any subject. She just blindly accepts, points out that there's a cave when you pass by one and seems resigned to carry the player's burden.
She's not a follower, companion or anything. She's like a pet, doing exactly what she's told.
That's not a character. As far as I know, most of the companions are like this.

If Skyrim was a tabletop RPG all the players would be complaining of the extreme railroadingRailroading definition: When a Game master of a tabletop or Pen & Paper RPG restricts the players to a narrowly defined, planned path, much like how a train is restricted to its rails. Any attempt by the players to deviate from these rails is met by immovable resistance, pretty much like the invisible wall in video games..
"But Legendsmith" I hear you say "Skyrim has a massive open world and tons of quests and stuff and levelling up."
My response is "so what?"
Just Cause 2 had a huge open world, as big as or bigger than Skyrim's if I recall correctly. It had a lot of missions and you could level up health, improve weapons, etc by finding various objects. But it sure wasn't an RPG!

In Skyrim, there are very few or no consequences for your actions. For example, assume a player kills a shopkeeper. Their relatives inherit the shop, but they'll still sell you stuff and even give quests. The different dialogue options are a joke. 3 or 4 is the usual amount, but they have no real impact on anything. Older RPGs have had far, far more. I've seen one that had 18 options to start with. There is very little choice in skyrim.

Indeed, Very few quests have any kind of choice either. The ones I have encountered that do are side quests with no impact on the main story; they just earn the player some money/items, just like all the other quests, bar those that earn you a companion. The quests in skyrim have loot as their reward, which is pretty much expected, but it's no more than that. That is not expected of an RPG.

The only thing I found memorable about characters in skyrim was that they were not memorable at all. A role playing game has you play the role of a character, a role where you interact with other characters. But there is no character to the other characters in Skyrim.

Let's have a look at a Sandbox action RPG; Mount & Blade Warband.
In that game, the player can accumulate followers who actually have personalities. They talk to the player about various locations, giving insight into their own personal histories. They interact with each other in positive and negative ways. In addition, the player him/her self must interact with them. If two followers are disagreeing then the player has to reprimand one and support the other, because they will bring their disagreement to the player since ingame he/she is the leader of the warband. If you choose to support one over the other, they will become unhappy and may even leave. Any significant character can be interacted with and has a like/dislike relationship slider. Cities and towns can also like or dislike the player. There is an actual element of roleplaying. I had a friend who plays the game describe his game in great detail, as if he was telling a story.
I have not seen anyone speak like that to me of Skyrim, and I have even more friends who play it than I do M&B warband.
On another note, I've seen people say that skyrim's random encounter thing, where enemies are randomly spawned so you get things like a mammoth fighting dragons is really awesome.
Is it cool? Yes. Is it amazing or new? No. M&B had a similar thing.



Now, you might say "why don't you just play those games if you want those features?"
Well yes, I do play them. But I expect roleplaying elements in a game that's supposedly an RPG. Skyrim disappoints here. But it had the potential not to.
Skyrim could have been a really good RPG without the game being rewritten; but it wasn't.


I must conclude that Skyrim is no more an RPG than Just Cause 2 is.There are other points I'd make to support my conclusion, but being the hour that it is I can not recall them.
In fact, I'd classify them the same way, both are open world action-adventure games. (The difference being that Skyrim is like an action adventure game trying to be an RPG).
If you look at Skyrim in the open world action adventure light, then it it's far, far better, than it is as an RPG; but still not the best.

Perhaps I've been spoiled by P&P RPGs, where there is a real person crafting a story there with the players, but I doubt it. Skyrim's RPG elements seem quite lacklustre to me. I was looking for an engaging story with interesting characters, but its strangely absent in Skyrim.

[/rant]

Two last thing, if anyone complains about comparing Skyrim to other games, they should realise that comparing something to other, similar things is a perfectly valid way to evaluate it.
And finally:
I am not saying Skyrim is a bad game that you should feel bad about liking. It is enjoyable. But it is not the best. It is not a breakthrough in anything. Everything that is can boast about or does well has been done already and done far better.
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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DnD has three things:
1. Role-playing
2. Emphasis on freedom in character building and combat.
3. Finding ways to piss off the DM.
So yes, I'd say that it is fair to judge RPGs by the way they handle combat and character progression. And Skyrim gave you complete control over how you build your character, so I'd call it a RPG. And faulting the game for not being able to react to what you do in the world? Technical limitations. Play a tabletop game if you want that level of interaction.
 

Legendsmith

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RedEyesBlackGamer said:
DnD has three things:
1. Role-playing
2. Emphasis on freedom in character building and combat.
3. Finding ways to piss off the DM.
Never mentioned DnD.
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
And faulting the game for not being able to react to what you do in the world? Technical limitations.
It's good that this is at the end of your comment, because otherwise I would have stopped reading.
If you think technical limitations are what prevented there being any solutions to problems other than mindless violence, if you think technical limitations are what gave us meaningless choices for meaningless conversations, if you think technical limitations are what caused the characters in Skyrim to have a distinct lack of character and if you think technical limitations are what prevents roleplaying in skyrim then I respectfully suggest that you have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

There are older games that have far better RPG elements than Skyrim. I even gave an example in the OP. Please, consider what I have said instead of saying what comes to you first off the top of your head.
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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Legendsmith said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
DnD has three things:
1. Role-playing
2. Emphasis on freedom in character building and combat.
3. Finding ways to piss off the DM.
Never mentioned DnD.
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
And faulting the game for not being able to react to what you do in the world? Technical limitations.
It's good that this is at the end of your comment, because otherwise I would have stopped reading.
If you think technical limitations are what prevented there being any solutions to problems other than mindless violence, if you think technical limitations are what gave us meaningless choices for meaningless conversations, if you think technical limitations are what caused the characters in Skyrim to have a distinct lack of character and if you think technical limitations are what prevents roleplaying in skyrim then I respectfully suggest that you have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

There are older games that have far better RPG elements than Skyrim. I even gave an example in the OP. Please, consider what I have said instead of saying what comes to you first off the top of your head.
This is where I refer you to
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/experienced-points/6069-Death-to-Good-Graphics
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/experienced-points/7588-Voice-vs-Choice
See, 10 years ago, they could have done a lot of that stuff with ease. But with graphics the way they are now and having the game be completely voice acted, there isn't much room to incorporate multiple ways to do every quest or have a ton of dialogue options.
 

endtherapture

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Legendsmith said:
If you think technical limitations are what prevented there being any solutions to problems other than mindless violence, if you think technical limitations are what gave us meaningless choices for meaningless conversations, if you think technical limitations are what caused the characters in Skyrim to have a distinct lack of character and if you think technical limitations are what prevents roleplaying in skyrim then I respectfully suggest that you have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

There are older games that have far better RPG elements than Skyrim. I even gave an example in the OP. Please, consider what I have said instead of saying what comes to you first off the top of your head.
Older games are easier to create vast choices with because you can just write a line of text - Skyrim requires extra animation, voice work and stuff to make it work because of the resoueces.

The lack of characterisation and stuff is just due to Bethesda - they've never been good at it, if you want character in your game, play Obsidian or Bioware games.

It seems you want complete freedom but also deep characters - that's the compromise in games, you can either have a linear directed world and strong characters, ala Bioware, or a vast open world with freedom ala Bethesda.
 

Legendsmith

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RedEyesBlackGamer said:
This is where I refer you to
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/experienced-points/6069-Death-to-Good-Graphics
See, 10 years ago, they could have done a lot of that a stuff with ease. But with graphics the way they are now and having the game be completely voice acted, there isn't much room to incorporate multiple ways to do every quest or have a ton of dialogue options.
It really would have helped if you had linked that in your initial post.
That said, I agree, to an extent. It's not technical limitations that are stopping the game being a good RPG, it's the fact that apparently it needs to be voice acted and have super shiny graphics.
It's not technical limitations, it's budget limitations, but not quite, because current gen low budget games or older games (which had lower budgets) are delivering better RPG experiences, so then, would you say that it's design spec limitations that are imposed because, as Shamus said, developers & publishers want a safe bet.
...Because people buy games with shiny graphics. Why? Because publiushers hype them. Publishers hype them because people buy game with shiny graphics...
Seems like the industry is in a vicious cycle.

Personally, I would say that if players want every line voice acted in an RPG, they should be playing a pen & paper RPG.

endtherapture said:
It seems you want complete freedom but also deep characters - that's the compromise in games, you can either have a linear directed world and strong characters, ala Bioware, or a vast open world with freedom ala Bethesda.
Actually, I'd be happy with one. Skyrim provides neither. That said, it's not really as much of a tradeoff as you make it out to be.
 

Terminate421

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Well if I am using a one handed sword, then why am I improving in-game with the skill?

I think that classifies as an RPG

What I like about Skyrim is I can control my character the way I want to, I am not limited to an area or am forced to swing my sword in a certain motion.
 

Legendsmith

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Terminate421 said:
Well if I am using a one handed sword, then why am I improving in-game with the skill?

I think that classifies as an RPG
If you think that a player having skill levels makes an RPG, then you do not know what an RPG is.
Is BF3 an RPG? By your measure it is.
 

Ragnarok185

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I call them "adventure games"

I want the term "role playing game" wiped from the face off the earth.
 

Fishyash

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There have been very few video games that have succeeded in every aspect of an RPG. The Elder Scrolls series focuses on dungeon crawling, exploring and lore, and combat that tries harder than it should (IMO) to be an action game.

RPGs for video games have started off as dungeon crawling sims, so while it's interesting to see people try to recreate the P&P experience, it doesn't really seem worthwhile to discuss the definition of an RPG in regards to video games, because, frankly, there really isn't one...
 

Legendsmith

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Ragnarok185 said:
I call them "adventure games"

I want the term "role playing game" wiped from the face off the earth.
It sounds to me like you've never played a good RPG, video or traditional. There was a time when Role Playing Game referred only to traditional, pen & paper roleplaying games. The type where you get some friends around a table and take on roles of characters in a world created, described and controlled by a game master.

There are video roleplaying games that do actually do the RPG part right. Skyrim is not one of them. Adventure games are something different to what Skyrim is trying to be. Consider what you're saying there.

Fishyash said:
There have been very few video games that have succeeded in every aspect of an RPG. The Elder Scrolls series focuses on dungeon crawling, exploring and lore, and combat that tries harder than it should (IMO) to be an action game.
Honestly, I think Bethesda should drop all pretenses of TES VI being an RPG and have the games an open world acton-adventure. I believe that the result would be a better game.
 

Fishyash

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Legendsmith said:
Fishyash said:
There have been very few video games that have succeeded in every aspect of an RPG. The Elder Scrolls series focuses on dungeon crawling, exploring and lore, and combat that tries harder than it should (IMO) to be an action game.
Honestly, I think Bethesda should drop all pretenses of TES VI being an RPG and have the games an open world acton-adventure. I believe that the result would be a better game.
Since you responded faster than I ended up editing I will just respond to this post.

RPGs for video games have started off as dungeon crawling sims, so while it's great to see developers try to recreate the P&P experience, it doesn't really seem worthwhile to discuss the definition of an RPG in regards to video games, because, frankly, there really isn't one...
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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Legendsmith said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
This is where I refer you to
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/experienced-points/6069-Death-to-Good-Graphics
See, 10 years ago, they could have done a lot of that a stuff with ease. But with graphics the way they are now and having the game be completely voice acted, there isn't much room to incorporate multiple ways to do every quest or have a ton of dialogue options.
It really would have helped if you had linked that in your initial post.
That said, I agree, to an extent. It's not technical limitations that are stopping the game being a good RPG, it's the fact that apparently it needs to be voice acted and have super shiny graphics.
It's not technical limitations, it's budget limitations, but not quite, because current gen low budget games or older games (which had lower budgets) are delivering better RPG experiences, so then, would you say that it's design spec limitations that are imposed because, as Shamus said, developers & publishers want a safe bet.
...Because people buy games with shiny graphics. Why? Because publiushers hype them. Publishers hype them because people buy game with shiny graphics...
Seems like the industry is in a vicious cycle.

Personally, I would say that if players want every line voice acted in an RPG, they should be playing a pen & paper RPG.
I agree. I guess budget limitations would be a better way to put it. But that is where the industry is at right now. What are you going to do?
 

Legendsmith

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Fishyash said:
RPGs for video games have started off as dungeon crawling sims, so while it's great to see developers try to recreate the P&P experience, it doesn't really seem worthwhile to discuss the definition of an RPG in regards to video games, because, frankly, there really isn't one...
I can see where you are coming from, but I disagree. There are quite a few elements that carry over fine from P&P to video games. They undergo changes and such, yes, but the result is still a game where a player can play a role and have the game be recognisably an RPG.
Skyrim does not do it right. There was potential there in Skyrim for it to work, but it didn't.

RedEyesBlackGamer said:
I agree. I guess budget limitations would be a better way to put it. But that is where the industry is at right now. What are you going to do?
Why, post on the internet about it of course! What else?
 

GrimHeaper

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Most games are RPG's the term just isn't used for them for some reason or another.
For some reason the mechanics are more associated with games being rpg's now when the mechanics were always there just to measure your actions and progress.
 

Legendsmith

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GrimHeaper said:
Most games are RPG's the term just isn't used for them for some reason or another.
For some reason the mechanics are more associated with games being rpg's now when the mechanics were always there just to measure your actions and progress.
Indeed, you're getting the point. The mechanics often used in RPGs have become the definition of RPGs, in some people's minds. Just look at Terminate421's post. He equated the presence of a character skill level mechanic with a game being an RPG. This is false, as the level mechanic is supposed to measure the character's actions and progress through the role playing, now they are ends to themselves. That provides a really shallow experience.


As I said, Skyrim had the potential to be a good RPG, but it didn't reach it.
 

Fishyash

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Legendsmith said:
Fishyash said:
RPGs for video games have started off as dungeon crawling sims, so while it's great to see developers try to recreate the P&P experience, it doesn't really seem worthwhile to discuss the definition of an RPG in regards to video games, because, frankly, there really isn't one...
I can see where you are coming from, but I disagree. There are quite a few elements that carry over fine from P&P to video games. They undergo changes and such, yes, but the result is still a game where a player can play a role and have the game be recognisably an RPG.
Skyrim does not do it right. There was potential there in Skyrim for it to work, but it didn't.
What would you think should have been done for it to become an RPG? I don't think skyrim is fundamentally flawed, and that something could have been done for it to be an RPG.
 

Terminate421

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Legendsmith said:
Terminate421 said:
Well if I am using a one handed sword, then why am I improving in-game with the skill?

I think that classifies as an RPG
If you think that a player having skill levels makes an RPG, then you do not know what an RPG is.
Is BF3 an RPG? By your measure it is.
You have some nerve you know.

Battlefield's unlock system rewards you with stuff that would be helpful to you, so long as you focus on that class. But notice how I said stuff, not stats or skills. That means that even if I suck at say, sniping. And I home in on that class for a while, I will gain access to more useful sniper stuff, but my skill as a sniper may still suck.

Pokemon is an RPG be ause as you train your pokemon, they get stronger. As well as access to new stuff such as evolving or moves.

Skyrim is the same way, if I swing my sword enough, I can improve my ability to swing the sword, not just by gaining access to stuff, but also access to powers and increases
 

Legendsmith

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Fishyash said:
Legendsmith said:
Fishyash said:
RPGs for video games have started off as dungeon crawling sims, so while it's great to see developers try to recreate the P&P experience, it doesn't really seem worthwhile to discuss the definition of an RPG in regards to video games, because, frankly, there really isn't one...
I can see where you are coming from, but I disagree. There are quite a few elements that carry over fine from P&P to video games. They undergo changes and such, yes, but the result is still a game where a player can play a role and have the game be recognisably an RPG.
Skyrim does not do it right. There was potential there in Skyrim for it to work, but it didn't.
What would you think should have been done for it to become an RPG? I don't think skyrim is fundamentally flawed, and that something could have been done for it to be an RPG.
Character interaction. It's virtually non-existent in Skyrim. Characters with personalities who actually respond to events would have greatly improved the game. I gave an example in the OP with mount & Blade. There are intra-party interactions between the NPC party-members. Consequences for events.

That's all secondary. I could go on pointing out things like that for hours.

What really needs to change is this: The mechanics of the game should be a medium by which a player plays out the role of his character. Things like skill level should measure the character's progression through the story and the world. In Skyrim, they don't. There's barely a story, NPCs pile quests on you for no real reason. Hell, a lot of these are arbritarily given to you, the player has no choice in the matter, but there is no reason given for the quest. Levelling up is an end to itself in Skyrim, rather than a means to an end.

There is no character development in Skyrim.
I've mentioned Mount & Blade too many times, but I'll speak of it again. In that game, the mechanics of levelling up and gaining higher skill levels actually DO measure a character's progression through the world and story.

A higher level character can interact with Lords on an even playing field and present a threat to them. When a character is high enough level to lead an army, they can enter the national 'stage', to use a metaphor, and challenge Kings and enter diplomacy on a national scale. Pretty much anyone who has played Mount & Blade can tell you that if someone had the will and the talent for writing, they could write a story based off a Mount & Blade game and give it some depth.

Is that possible in Skyrim? No, not that I have seen. Skyrim is wide, yes, but it is flat. There is little depth.

SomeBritishDude said:
If Skyrim isn't an RPG then people stopped making big budget RPGs a long time ago.
I fear you may be correct.
Terminate421 said:
Skyrim is the same way, if I swing my sword enough, I can improve my ability to swing the sword, not just by gaining access to stuff, but also access to powers and increases
You realise you are just proving me correct, yes?
If I shoot my gun enough in BF3, I get new guns, powers (perks) and increases! Modern Warfare 2 & 3 also fall under RPGs with your definition.

The mechanics often associated with an RPG (levelling up, etc) do not make a game an RPG by being there. Lots more games are putting in level up systems so players can get an additional sense of progression and add more content to the game without spoiling the player right at the beginning. This does not make a game an RPG.

As I said earlier: You do not know what makes an RPG an RPG.