Skyrim, level-scaling, and you.

[Pyode]

I'm generally not thrilled with level scaling. I understand peoples point about being able to go anywhere right from the start, but to me that just defeats the point of having a leveling system at all. If all of the enemies are always the same strength relative to you, you might as well just beat the game as a level one. It would basically be the same experience.

I like the feeling of being completely weak and alone at the beginning, forced to stick to the proper roads and take low level quests. It makes it much more satisfying when you finally can delve into a Daedric ruin. You feel like you've earned it.

 

[Danpascooch]

It'll do.

But if I feel rail-roaded to certain areas at any point...I'll fucking gut someone.

I want to be able to go anywhere in the world without running into something way out of my league.

Fucking Daedric Ruins in Morrowind.

Oh hey, you're level 3!

STORM ATRONACH, DAEDROTH.

So you want the game to hold your hand through the whole way, instead? Not having level scaling like this would be like if you could defeat Kefka at level 1 in Final Fantasy VI or something. Strong enemies are strong, you are not. Since when did we gamers become such a bunch of wimps who can't take a little bit of a challenge? (Not saying that to YOU specifically, more a question in general since I've heard so many say the same thing in the past)

On the contrary, I enjoy a challenge. I just hate when they give you an open game world, and then DISCOURAGE exploration until you return at a higher level. I'm at the dungeon now, I want to have a chance in hell at beating it. A Daedroth vs Me and my Iron Broadsword is not even remotely fair, especially when that's only OUTSIDE the dungeon. Lords know what I run into inside!

(BTW, I'm a new guy, not the guy who quoted you before)

Yeah, but the problem with scaling the leveling means that there is really little point in leveling up at all. If there aren't areas you need to level up to survive in, then what's the point? You level at the same rate as enemies, and it all just stays about the same as early levels.

I think a mix would be best, have about 2/3s of the dungeons and areas scale so that you can explore freely, but have about 1/3 be hard to do until certain levels so you have something to work towards. (But find some way to make the player know WHICH areas these are, otherwise it'll be a clusterfuck)

 

[Danpascooch]

It'll do.

But if I feel rail-roaded to certain areas at any point...I'll fucking gut someone.

I want to be able to go anywhere in the world without running into something way out of my league.

Fucking Daedric Ruins in Morrowind.

Oh hey, you're level 3!

STORM ATRONACH, DAEDROTH.

So you want the game to hold your hand through the whole way, instead? Not having level scaling like this would be like if you could defeat Kefka at level 1 in Final Fantasy VI or something. Strong enemies are strong, you are not. Since when did we gamers become such a bunch of wimps who can't take a little bit of a challenge? (Not saying that to YOU specifically, more a question in general since I've heard so many say the same thing in the past)

That's a pretty dumb comparison, after all, you can't go kill the final boss of Oblivion at level 1, quest and story progression makes sure you don't do anything like that until you're at a reasonable level, without having you be able to go to areas way above your paygrade.

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

It'll do.

But if I feel rail-roaded to certain areas at any point...I'll fucking gut someone.

I want to be able to go anywhere in the world without running into something way out of my league.

Fucking Daedric Ruins in Morrowind.

Oh hey, you're level 3!

STORM ATRONACH, DAEDROTH.

So you want the game to hold your hand through the whole way, instead? Not having level scaling like this would be like if you could defeat Kefka at level 1 in Final Fantasy VI or something. Strong enemies are strong, you are not. Since when did we gamers become such a bunch of wimps who can't take a little bit of a challenge? (Not saying that to YOU specifically, more a question in general since I've heard so many say the same thing in the past)

That's a pretty dumb comparison, after all, you can't go kill the final boss of Oblivion at level 1, quest and story progression makes sure you don't do anything like that until you're at a reasonable level, without having you be able to go to areas way above your paygrade.

You CAN do it at level 2, you know. But that would require some sort of intent by the player to have that as his goal. That wouldn't happen by accident.

 

[The Unworthy Gentleman]

Oh good, Fallout's levelling system was much better than Oblivions. I never knew when I levelled up until I slept in a bed, which was pretty damn rare. Still not a lot of details though.

 

[malfernion]

It'll do.

But if I feel rail-roaded to certain areas at any point...I'll fucking gut someone.

I want to be able to go anywhere in the world without running into something way out of my league.

Fucking Daedric Ruins in Morrowind.

Oh hey, you're level 3!

STORM ATRONACH, DAEDROTH.

That's not a challenge, that's a massacre. At that point, the player is likely carrying less than 10 healing potions, and iron weapons.

Or the Deathclaws in New Vegas at the start. Can be done, but not without a considerable hurting on the inventory and much reloading.

TBH you should get killed by deathclaws if your too weak to handle them, serves you right for getting cocky and attacking this:

The last thing your character will ever see

The real world is dangerous, you don't go running in one direction do you, NO you stick to the roads like you should until you can handle the dangers out in the wilderness.

Exactly. I knew I couldn't handle it. I also knew that I was being rail-roaded.

I have nothing against linearity, I have something against deception. In a game about freedom, the lack of it disturbs me. For a game that allows for so much freedom, it's quite constricting for the first dozen hours.

I really think you should read the box on morrowind and FO3.. i dont recall reading the genre as exploration.. i thought it was rpg. In fallout you roleplay as a guy in a world post-nuclear apocalypse, with huge mutants running around killing everything, and you think its unfair when you can crawl out of a hole with nothing and get killed by deathclaws..

Whats the point or joy in exploring a world with absolutely no realism.. So in morrowind a prisoner gets released and wanders up to a volcano inhabited by the minions of an insane demigod and you should be able to walk in and check out whats in the draws? no, you'll get slaughtered.. Thats the beauty of a well realised world, not railroading..

 

[Roamin11]

It'll do.

But if I feel rail-roaded to certain areas at any point...I'll fucking gut someone.

I want to be able to go anywhere in the world without running into something way out of my league.

Fucking Daedric Ruins in Morrowind.

Oh hey, you're level 3!

STORM ATRONACH, DAEDROTH.

That's not a challenge, that's a massacre. At that point, the player is likely carrying less than 10 healing potions, and iron weapons.

Or the Deathclaws in New Vegas at the start. Can be done, but not without a considerable hurting on the inventory and much reloading.

TBH you should get killed by deathclaws if your too weak to handle them, serves you right for getting cocky and attacking this:

The last thing your character will ever see

The real world is dangerous, you don't go running in one direction do you, NO you stick to the roads like you should until you can handle the dangers out in the wilderness.

Exactly. I knew I couldn't handle it. I also knew that I was being rail-roaded.

I have nothing against linearity, I have something against deception. In a game about freedom, the lack of it disturbs me. For a game that allows for so much freedom, it's quite constricting for the first dozen hours.

I Didn't mind the railroading, but I did. I wish they would have seperated both black mountian, and the quarry, that whole section still remains unexplored for me (Damn saving over, curse me and my multipul files) a whole chunk of the map guarded by super mutants and death claws is no beuno!!

 

[spartandude]

It'll do.

But if I feel rail-roaded to certain areas at any point...I'll fucking gut someone.

I want to be able to go anywhere in the world without running into something way out of my league.

Fucking Daedric Ruins in Morrowind.

Oh hey, you're level 3!

STORM ATRONACH, DAEDROTH.

So you want the game to hold your hand through the whole way, instead? Not having level scaling like this would be like if you could defeat Kefka at level 1 in Final Fantasy VI or something. Strong enemies are strong, you are not. Since when did we gamers become such a bunch of wimps who can't take a little bit of a challenge? (Not saying that to YOU specifically, more a question in general since I've heard so many say the same thing in the past)

That's a pretty dumb comparison, after all, you can't go kill the final boss of Oblivion at level 1, quest and story progression makes sure you don't do anything like that until you're at a reasonable level, without having you be able to go to areas way above your paygrade.

the requirments for Oblivion's story is that you must be atleast level....2? 2? that is just pointless and yes i did beat the game at level 2 and it had very little difference in challenge from when i defeated it at 20

 

[phantasmalWordsmith]

Thank the lord. progress. now we just need a better combat system and everything has come up roses for the elder scrolls

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

It'll do.

But if I feel rail-roaded to certain areas at any point...I'll fucking gut someone.

I want to be able to go anywhere in the world without running into something way out of my league.

Fucking Daedric Ruins in Morrowind.

Oh hey, you're level 3!

STORM ATRONACH, DAEDROTH.

That's not a challenge, that's a massacre. At that point, the player is likely carrying less than 10 healing potions, and iron weapons.

Or the Deathclaws in New Vegas at the start. Can be done, but not without a considerable hurting on the inventory and much reloading.

b)breaks immersion.

You lost me there...I've never been a huge fan of immersion. I actually adore when games break the 4th wall.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Well, I hope they at least put in SOME sense of threat and don't scale everything again.
Otherwise, there's no suspense or sense of danger, and later, when you DO become powerful it doesn't feel like it made any difference.

Random bandits running around kicking my ass after I became a Master of the Arts of Destruction (which I spent TENS OF HOURS in game time acquiring)...yeah. That doesn't feel futile at all.

If you were going to go that route, then why include levels stats, and all that math business at all?
Oh right. RPG stats are marketable, even if they're completely meaningless.

 

[spartandude]

It'll do.

But if I feel rail-roaded to certain areas at any point...I'll fucking gut someone.

I want to be able to go anywhere in the world without running into something way out of my league.

Fucking Daedric Ruins in Morrowind.

Oh hey, you're level 3!

STORM ATRONACH, DAEDROTH.

That's not a challenge, that's a massacre. At that point, the player is likely carrying less than 10 healing potions, and iron weapons.

Or the Deathclaws in New Vegas at the start. Can be done, but not without a considerable hurting on the inventory and much reloading.

b)breaks immersion.

You lost me there...I've never been a huge fan of immersion. I actually adore when games break the 4th wall.

i dont know how to put pictures into a thread so all i can say is....

Facepalm!

 

[archvile93]

snip

snip

Oh right, I get it. Enemies all scale to your own level, so you get a challenge throughout. I can't yet decide if this is good or bad.

On one hand there is a nice challenge all the way through the game, so that makes it a bit more fun I guess. But on the other hand you can go anywhere at any level, without levelling up and kill whatever is in your way (still a challenge but can also leave you with a bit of disappointment because you feel as if your character still has the same amount of power as he/she/it did 6 levels ago.

At least that is what I think it is about, is there anything more than it than that? I'm sort of on the line with this one.

You summarized, perfectly, the main argument between the "for and against" enemy scaling crowds.

Generally, enemy scaling works really well for repeat playthroughs, when you already know your favorite dungeons and quests.

And having to grind up to a certain level of ability again, just makes repeat playthroughs a hassle at times.

This is the reason I played Oblivion so many times, with the full enemy scaling, there is nothing stopping me from running to my favorite haunts with a new character. I can head there right away, without being bothered by anything I can't handle. You still get a challenge from the boss enemies of dungeons.

The only real issue starts at higher levels of around 30. You combat skills cap at 100, and enemies will still get stronger with more health, even when you level through your Speechcraft skill, and you're still doing the same amount of damage.

For people who play one character, scaling can suck really bad and make the game into a wall that requires glitch/exploit abuse to make it through at higher levels.

Actually some quests you really can't do until you level up anyway. Not because the enemies will be too tough for you, but because the rewards will be worthless. A good example is quests that give you unique weapons. If you do them early, the weapon you get will be shit and you'll never get the good version. One good example is the finger's of the mountain quest I belive it's called. do it early, you get a shit spell that you'll forget about by level 4. Do it late, and you get a god spell.

 

[maturin]

That's a pretty dumb comparison, after all, you can't go kill the final boss of Oblivion at level 1, quest and story progression makes sure you don't do anything like that until you're at a reasonable level, without having you be able to go to areas way above your paygrade.

Wrong. There is no final boss in Oblivion. The only requirement is that you be level 2. For serious.

You can stop an entire Daedric invasions seeing virtually nothing but pathetic scamps.

You CAN do it at level 2, you know. But that would require some sort of intent by the player to have that as his goal. That wouldn't happen by accident.

Not in the slightest. The instant you step out of the starting dungeons you get an incredibly loud quest popup that gives you a pizza slice quest marker and says Fast Travel Here! So you do it, have a short conversation, and you get another pizza slice and fast travel destination.

And that's Kvatch. You learn that the world is ending and do as any rational person would do in their final days on earth. You rush around trying to stop it. And heh, you might level up twice on the way, but the story practically demands that you save the world right away. Makes the carefree exploration and faction gameplay really stupid in context.

See no hellgate, hear no hellgate speak no hellgate. Everything's fine and the NPCs are all creepily smiling at me anyway.

 

[Danpascooch]

It'll do.

But if I feel rail-roaded to certain areas at any point...I'll fucking gut someone.

I want to be able to go anywhere in the world without running into something way out of my league.

Fucking Daedric Ruins in Morrowind.

Oh hey, you're level 3!

STORM ATRONACH, DAEDROTH.

So you want the game to hold your hand through the whole way, instead? Not having level scaling like this would be like if you could defeat Kefka at level 1 in Final Fantasy VI or something. Strong enemies are strong, you are not. Since when did we gamers become such a bunch of wimps who can't take a little bit of a challenge? (Not saying that to YOU specifically, more a question in general since I've heard so many say the same thing in the past)

That's a pretty dumb comparison, after all, you can't go kill the final boss of Oblivion at level 1, quest and story progression makes sure you don't do anything like that until you're at a reasonable level, without having you be able to go to areas way above your paygrade.

You CAN do it at level 2, you know. But that would require some sort of intent by the player to have that as his goal. That wouldn't happen by accident.

Well sure, games can always be broken if you're a complete ass and try to do break it at the expense of all fun.

Still, didn't know that, pretty hilarious.

I'm sure you would actually GAIN the levels while going to him, you can only achieve this by not sleeping right?

 

[Danpascooch]

It'll do.

But if I feel rail-roaded to certain areas at any point...I'll fucking gut someone.

I want to be able to go anywhere in the world without running into something way out of my league.

Fucking Daedric Ruins in Morrowind.

Oh hey, you're level 3!

STORM ATRONACH, DAEDROTH.

So you want the game to hold your hand through the whole way, instead? Not having level scaling like this would be like if you could defeat Kefka at level 1 in Final Fantasy VI or something. Strong enemies are strong, you are not. Since when did we gamers become such a bunch of wimps who can't take a little bit of a challenge? (Not saying that to YOU specifically, more a question in general since I've heard so many say the same thing in the past)

That's a pretty dumb comparison, after all, you can't go kill the final boss of Oblivion at level 1, quest and story progression makes sure you don't do anything like that until you're at a reasonable level, without having you be able to go to areas way above your paygrade.

I'm not sure if there is any quest that requires me to be a specific level, maybe one of the daedra shrines, but if not for that. I think I could easily beat the whole game at level 1. There is no final boss in Oblivion unless you count Mankar Camoran, who's not even strong to begin with.

If you wanted to beat him at level 2, you'd have to specifically not sleep in an aim to not grow the levels, no system is idiot proof if you want to break it at the expense of any fun.

 

[Danpascooch]

It'll do.

But if I feel rail-roaded to certain areas at any point...I'll fucking gut someone.

I want to be able to go anywhere in the world without running into something way out of my league.

Fucking Daedric Ruins in Morrowind.

Oh hey, you're level 3!

STORM ATRONACH, DAEDROTH.

So you want the game to hold your hand through the whole way, instead? Not having level scaling like this would be like if you could defeat Kefka at level 1 in Final Fantasy VI or something. Strong enemies are strong, you are not. Since when did we gamers become such a bunch of wimps who can't take a little bit of a challenge? (Not saying that to YOU specifically, more a question in general since I've heard so many say the same thing in the past)

That's a pretty dumb comparison, after all, you can't go kill the final boss of Oblivion at level 1, quest and story progression makes sure you don't do anything like that until you're at a reasonable level, without having you be able to go to areas way above your paygrade.

the requirments for Oblivion's story is that you must be atleast level....2? 2? that is just pointless and yes i did beat the game at level 2 and it had very little difference in challenge from when i defeated it at 20

The only way to beat it at level two is to specifically try to avoid growing levels, if you're that stupid you shouldn't blame the game for it

 

[Danpascooch]

That's a pretty dumb comparison, after all, you can't go kill the final boss of Oblivion at level 1, quest and story progression makes sure you don't do anything like that until you're at a reasonable level, without having you be able to go to areas way above your paygrade.

Wrong. There is no final boss in Oblivion. The only requirement is that you be level 2. For serious.

You can stop an entire Daedric invasions seeing virtually nothing but pathetic scamps.

You CAN do it at level 2, you know. But that would require some sort of intent by the player to have that as his goal. That wouldn't happen by accident.

Not in the slightest. The instant you step out of the starting dungeons you get an incredibly loud quest popup that gives you a pizza slice quest marker and says Fast Travel Here! So you do it, have a short conversation, and you get another pizza slice and fast travel destination.

And that's Kvatch. You learn that the world is ending and do as any rational person would do in their final days on earth. You rush around trying to stop it. And heh, you might level up twice on the way, but the story practically demands that you save the world right away. Makes the carefree exploration and faction gameplay really stupid in context.

See no hellgate, hear no hellgate speak no hellgate. Everything's fine and the NPCs are all creepily smiling at me anyway.

Nothing is idiot proof if you try your best to break it at the expense of any fun, but as long as any sane normal person gets the proper experience, who cares?

 

[Danpascooch]

That's a pretty dumb comparison, after all, you can't go kill the final boss of Oblivion at level 1, quest and story progression makes sure you don't do anything like that until you're at a reasonable level, without having you be able to go to areas way above your paygrade.

Wrong. There is no final boss in Oblivion. The only requirement is that you be level 2. For serious.

You can stop an entire Daedric invasions seeing virtually nothing but pathetic scamps.

You CAN do it at level 2, you know. But that would require some sort of intent by the player to have that as his goal. That wouldn't happen by accident.

Not in the slightest. The instant you step out of the starting dungeons you get an incredibly loud quest popup that gives you a pizza slice quest marker and says Fast Travel Here! So you do it, have a short conversation, and you get another pizza slice and fast travel destination.

And that's Kvatch. You learn that the world is ending and do as any rational person would do in their final days on earth. You rush around trying to stop it. And heh, you might level up twice on the way, but the story practically demands that you save the world right away. Makes the carefree exploration and faction gameplay really stupid in context.

See no hellgate, hear no hellgate speak no hellgate. Everything's fine and the NPCs are all creepily smiling at me anyway.

You can go to Kvatch at level 2, but you can't beat the game at level 2 without specifically avoiding the level games by not sleeping, hell, you'd hit a new level by athletics alone

 

[Jaime_Wolf]

It'll do.

But if I feel rail-roaded to certain areas at any point...I'll fucking gut someone.

I want to be able to go anywhere in the world without running into something way out of my league.

Fucking Daedric Ruins in Morrowind.

Oh hey, you're level 3!

STORM ATRONACH, DAEDROTH.

That's not a challenge, that's a massacre. At that point, the player is likely carrying less than 10 healing potions, and iron weapons.

That's actually what I loved about Morrowind and the main reason I could never get into Oblivion. It just felt like the whole world was one big expanse of same. Same quests, same characters, same voices, same settings, same everything. Having all of the difficulty so samey made it even worse.

Things like the Daedric ruins were fun to me because you had to be careful going around them at lower levels and then you actually felt accomplished when you managed to stomp around there at higher levels. Lack of a difficulty gradient also made the Morrowind model of artefact hunting largely impossible in Oblivion -- you can't just hide artefacts in scary caves if every cave is equally scary. I personally really enjoyed the feeling that the artefacts in Morrowind truly were lost relics that no one knew the location of for the most part rather than being quest rewards or things hidden away in places NPCs would direct you to.