Skyrim, level-scaling, and you.

[spartandude]

That's a pretty dumb comparison, after all, you can't go kill the final boss of Oblivion at level 1, quest and story progression makes sure you don't do anything like that until you're at a reasonable level, without having you be able to go to areas way above your paygrade.

Wrong. There is no final boss in Oblivion. The only requirement is that you be level 2. For serious.

You can stop an entire Daedric invasions seeing virtually nothing but pathetic scamps.

You CAN do it at level 2, you know. But that would require some sort of intent by the player to have that as his goal. That wouldn't happen by accident.

Not in the slightest. The instant you step out of the starting dungeons you get an incredibly loud quest popup that gives you a pizza slice quest marker and says Fast Travel Here! So you do it, have a short conversation, and you get another pizza slice and fast travel destination.

And that's Kvatch. You learn that the world is ending and do as any rational person would do in their final days on earth. You rush around trying to stop it. And heh, you might level up twice on the way, but the story practically demands that you save the world right away. Makes the carefree exploration and faction gameplay really stupid in context.

See no hellgate, hear no hellgate speak no hellgate. Everything's fine and the NPCs are all creepily smiling at me anyway.

Nothing is idiot proof if you try your best to break it at the expense of any fun, but as long as any sane normal person gets the proper experience, who cares?

It'll do.

But if I feel rail-roaded to certain areas at any point...I'll fucking gut someone.

I want to be able to go anywhere in the world without running into something way out of my league.

Fucking Daedric Ruins in Morrowind.

Oh hey, you're level 3!

STORM ATRONACH, DAEDROTH.

So you want the game to hold your hand through the whole way, instead? Not having level scaling like this would be like if you could defeat Kefka at level 1 in Final Fantasy VI or something. Strong enemies are strong, you are not. Since when did we gamers become such a bunch of wimps who can't take a little bit of a challenge? (Not saying that to YOU specifically, more a question in general since I've heard so many say the same thing in the past)

That's a pretty dumb comparison, after all, you can't go kill the final boss of Oblivion at level 1, quest and story progression makes sure you don't do anything like that until you're at a reasonable level, without having you be able to go to areas way above your paygrade.

the requirments for Oblivion's story is that you must be atleast level....2? 2? that is just pointless and yes i did beat the game at level 2 and it had very little difference in challenge from when i defeated it at 20

The only way to beat it at level two is to specifically try to avoid growing levels, if you're that stupid you shouldn't blame the game for it

yh i was avoiding leveling up for that plat through as an experiment! as you can also see i beat the game at much higher levels

my point is that its rediculous how beating the game at level 2 has almost the same challenge (slightly less actually which is even more rediculous) as beating it at around level 20

 

[Danpascooch]

That's a pretty dumb comparison, after all, you can't go kill the final boss of Oblivion at level 1, quest and story progression makes sure you don't do anything like that until you're at a reasonable level, without having you be able to go to areas way above your paygrade.

Wrong. There is no final boss in Oblivion. The only requirement is that you be level 2. For serious.

You can stop an entire Daedric invasions seeing virtually nothing but pathetic scamps.

You CAN do it at level 2, you know. But that would require some sort of intent by the player to have that as his goal. That wouldn't happen by accident.

Not in the slightest. The instant you step out of the starting dungeons you get an incredibly loud quest popup that gives you a pizza slice quest marker and says Fast Travel Here! So you do it, have a short conversation, and you get another pizza slice and fast travel destination.

And that's Kvatch. You learn that the world is ending and do as any rational person would do in their final days on earth. You rush around trying to stop it. And heh, you might level up twice on the way, but the story practically demands that you save the world right away. Makes the carefree exploration and faction gameplay really stupid in context.

See no hellgate, hear no hellgate speak no hellgate. Everything's fine and the NPCs are all creepily smiling at me anyway.

Nothing is idiot proof if you try your best to break it at the expense of any fun, but as long as any sane normal person gets the proper experience, who cares?

It'll do.

But if I feel rail-roaded to certain areas at any point...I'll fucking gut someone.

I want to be able to go anywhere in the world without running into something way out of my league.

Fucking Daedric Ruins in Morrowind.

Oh hey, you're level 3!

STORM ATRONACH, DAEDROTH.

So you want the game to hold your hand through the whole way, instead? Not having level scaling like this would be like if you could defeat Kefka at level 1 in Final Fantasy VI or something. Strong enemies are strong, you are not. Since when did we gamers become such a bunch of wimps who can't take a little bit of a challenge? (Not saying that to YOU specifically, more a question in general since I've heard so many say the same thing in the past)

That's a pretty dumb comparison, after all, you can't go kill the final boss of Oblivion at level 1, quest and story progression makes sure you don't do anything like that until you're at a reasonable level, without having you be able to go to areas way above your paygrade.

the requirments for Oblivion's story is that you must be atleast level....2? 2? that is just pointless and yes i did beat the game at level 2 and it had very little difference in challenge from when i defeated it at 20

The only way to beat it at level two is to specifically try to avoid growing levels, if you're that stupid you shouldn't blame the game for it

yh i was avoiding leveling up for that plat through as an experiment! as you can also see i beat the game at much higher levels

my point is that its rediculous how beating the game at level 2 has almost the same challenge (slightly less actually which is even more rediculous) as beating it at around level 20

Why is that ridiculous? As long as it only happens when someone is doing it as an experiment to see if it can happen, and the normal players get the full fun experience, who the hell cares?

 

[maturin]

That's a pretty dumb comparison, after all, you can't go kill the final boss of Oblivion at level 1, quest and story progression makes sure you don't do anything like that until you're at a reasonable level, without having you be able to go to areas way above your paygrade.

Wrong. There is no final boss in Oblivion. The only requirement is that you be level 2. For serious.

You can stop an entire Daedric invasions seeing virtually nothing but pathetic scamps.

You CAN do it at level 2, you know. But that would require some sort of intent by the player to have that as his goal. That wouldn't happen by accident.

Not in the slightest. The instant you step out of the starting dungeons you get an incredibly loud quest popup that gives you a pizza slice quest marker and says Fast Travel Here! So you do it, have a short conversation, and you get another pizza slice and fast travel destination.

And that's Kvatch. You learn that the world is ending and do as any rational person would do in their final days on earth. You rush around trying to stop it. And heh, you might level up twice on the way, but the story practically demands that you save the world right away. Makes the carefree exploration and faction gameplay really stupid in context.

See no hellgate, hear no hellgate speak no hellgate. Everything's fine and the NPCs are all creepily smiling at me anyway.

Nothing is idiot proof if you try your best to break it at the expense of any fun, but as long as any sane normal person gets the proper experience, who cares?

I think I just explained quite clearly why it is not bizarre or idiotic, but rather a completely normal and explictly encouraged style of gameplay to beat the main quest at a positively infantile level.

Oblivion makes it far too easy to have these messed up experiences. It's just poor design.

I can't tell you how many players end up with crappy low-level MQ reward armor and become the leader of EVERY guild, because Cyrodiil is a magic fairy land without any conflicting social interests or political issues, and the Mages let pure fighters lead them so long as they can kill necromancers well enough.

You can go to Kvatch at level 2, but you can't beat the game at level 2 without specifically avoiding the level games by not sleeping, hell, you'd hit a new level by athletics alone

I said as much. You would level up a few times by the end. But the game would still throw pathetic scamps at you. The final battle should murder a level 5 character.

 

[malfernion]

That's actually what I loved about Morrowind and the main reason I could never get into Oblivion. It just felt like the whole world was one big expanse of same. Same quests, same characters, same voices, same settings, same everything. Having all of the difficulty so samey made it even worse.

Things like the Daedric ruins were fun to me because you had to be careful going around them at lower levels and then you actually felt accomplished when you managed to stomp around there at higher levels. Lack of a difficulty gradient also made the Morrowind model of artefact hunting largely impossible in Oblivion -- you can't just hide artefacts in scary caves if every cave is equally scary. I personally really enjoyed the feeling that the artefacts in Morrowind truly were lost relics that no one knew the location of for the most part rather than being quest rewards or things hidden away in places NPCs would direct you to.

This, i loved when you were just strong/sneaky enough to get through a daedric ruin and you found a shrine.. You really want to pick up the jewels but youre scared to hell of what might happen. It's one of the main reasons morrowind is so good at letting you create your own story as you play.

 

[spartandude]

snip

my post isnt just the fact i beat the game at a low level, the shear fact that the game offers the player almost no more challenge as they level up is stupid, it means you dont really get that much stronger and makes the game feel broken

 

[Burningsok]

It'll do.

But if I feel rail-roaded to certain areas at any point...I'll fucking gut someone.

I want to be able to go anywhere in the world without running into something way out of my league.

Fucking Daedric Ruins in Morrowind.

Oh hey, you're level 3!

STORM ATRONACH, DAEDROTH.

So you want the game to hold your hand through the whole way, instead? Not having level scaling like this would be like if you could defeat Kefka at level 1 in Final Fantasy VI or something. Strong enemies are strong, you are not. Since when did we gamers become such a bunch of wimps who can't take a little bit of a challenge? (Not saying that to YOU specifically, more a question in general since I've heard so many say the same thing in the past)

On the contrary, I enjoy a challenge. I just hate when they give you an open game world, and then DISCOURAGE exploration until you return at a higher level. I'm at the dungeon now, I want to have a chance in hell at beating it. A Daedroth vs Me and my Iron Broadsword is not even remotely fair, especially when that's only OUTSIDE the dungeon. Lords know what I run into inside!

Same here, I really like a challenge. I have to slow down and figure out a strategy. I learned my lesson quick in Morrowind when I realized it was never a good idea to just rush into a cave or dungeon sword-a-swingin. Remember that bandit cave literally like 30 steps from the beginning town Seyda Neen near the silt strider... yeah, I got wrecked. I leveled up a bit before walking back in there again.

 

[Danpascooch]

That's a pretty dumb comparison, after all, you can't go kill the final boss of Oblivion at level 1, quest and story progression makes sure you don't do anything like that until you're at a reasonable level, without having you be able to go to areas way above your paygrade.

Wrong. There is no final boss in Oblivion. The only requirement is that you be level 2. For serious.

You can stop an entire Daedric invasions seeing virtually nothing but pathetic scamps.

You CAN do it at level 2, you know. But that would require some sort of intent by the player to have that as his goal. That wouldn't happen by accident.

Not in the slightest. The instant you step out of the starting dungeons you get an incredibly loud quest popup that gives you a pizza slice quest marker and says Fast Travel Here! So you do it, have a short conversation, and you get another pizza slice and fast travel destination.

And that's Kvatch. You learn that the world is ending and do as any rational person would do in their final days on earth. You rush around trying to stop it. And heh, you might level up twice on the way, but the story practically demands that you save the world right away. Makes the carefree exploration and faction gameplay really stupid in context.

See no hellgate, hear no hellgate speak no hellgate. Everything's fine and the NPCs are all creepily smiling at me anyway.

Nothing is idiot proof if you try your best to break it at the expense of any fun, but as long as any sane normal person gets the proper experience, who cares?

I think I just explained quite clearly why it is not bizarre or idiotic, but rather a completely normal and explictly encouraged style of gameplay to beat the main quest at a positively infantile level.

Oblivion makes it far too easy to have these messed up experiences. It's just poor design.

I can't tell you how many players end up with crappy low-level MQ reward armor and become the leader of EVERY guild, because Cyrodiil is a magic fairy land without any conflicting social interests or political issues, and the Mages let pure fighters lead them so long as they can kill necromancers well enough.

You can go to Kvatch at level 2, but you can't beat the game at level 2 without specifically avoiding the level games by not sleeping, hell, you'd hit a new level by athletics alone

I said as much. You would level up a few times by the end. But the game would still throw pathetic scamps at you. The final battle should murder a level 5 character.

Actually, I haven't heard a single reason why this is not bizarre or idiotic, and certainly nothing that suggests it's ENCOURAGED!

The only time I've heard this done is as an experiment, people level up because it's fun to gain new abilities, and if you're trying to specifically circumvent the system, that's your fault, not the game's. As for it being slightly easier, yeah, it probably is, but it's not like it's a hard game anyway, if you're so worried about the difficulty that you do something this stupid, again, it's not the game's fault, it's yours.

Saying you think you explained something doesn't mean you have. As long as these level 5 boss kills only happen as experiments, WHO GIVES A FLYING FUCK. My guess is there are maybe 15 people who have ever done that UNINTENTIONALLY. And those people are probably functionally retarded.

 

[Danpascooch]

snip

my post isnt just the fact i beat the game at a low level, the shear fact that the game offers the player almost no more challenge as they level up is stupid, it means you dont really get that much stronger and makes the game feel broken

That's why they include a difficulty meter, if it's too easy for you, turn up the difficulty.

 

[nohorsetown]

I think this same topic (tho not specifically about Bethesda games) came up, what, like a week ago? Something like that. Anyway, I remember someone suggested a sort of "scaled scaling" system, which really does sound like a good idea IMO.

Basically, you're level 1, so a goblin is level 1. You're level 2, goblin is level 2. But since goblins are s'posed to be kinda wimpy, when you're level 5, goblin is level 4. When you're level 10, goblin is level 7 or 8 or something. Eventually goblins cap out at 12 or 15 or something, because that is the pinnacle of goblin awesomeness. But when you're level 1, The Final Boss is level 50, and by the time you're level 50, it'll be level 60 or 70, always a bit ahead of you because it's insanely strong, but not by as much as it was in the early game. Voila.

I do think some encounters should be pretty much impossible at a low level. If I stumble into the Daedric Lair at level 3, I'm not gonna get pissed off at the game when I get slaughtered. It's a Daedric Lair. I knew what I was getting into. It only makes sense. I get more out of the game by making a note to come back later, and then finally reveling in my triumph, than I would if I just killed all the wimpy Daedra with my Iron Dagger and looted the dungeon for 20 bucks, a leather shield, and a chunk of quartz.

 

[Sovvolf]

It'll do.

But if I feel rail-roaded to certain areas at any point...I'll fucking gut someone.

I want to be able to go anywhere in the world without running into something way out of my league.

This is the exact reason why I don't like enemy scaling. I like the idea that I'm in a dangerous world where I could run into something scary and monstrous that may tare me apart until I'm a little more experienced. I think it adds tension to a game.

The reason I didn't like it in Oblvion was that I was exploring without risk. Yeah, I could run into a bear but beating it will be a cakewalk, there was no real fear of running through an area... No real tension or drama. No, I could walk anywhere practically unchallenged which to me, made exploration boring.

I like the idea of walking in a world where they'd be a dreaded forest, a forest that would be suicidal to walk through unprepared. I like the idea that in some areas or on some roads, walking at night may be extremely dangerous for a low levelled or inexperienced character. I liked the idea of being able to come back as an experienced fighter and fight my way through these areas. It would feel more rewarding.

When enemies stay around the same level as you then you don't feel like you are progressing, you feel like you might as well not bother. Some of us like the feeling of progression.
With Oblivion you don't get that. The level scaling makes levelling up pointless and if they wanted to have it like that then it would have been better for them to have removed levelling all together.

Though to each our own I guess.

 

[spartandude]

snip

my post isnt just the fact i beat the game at a low level, the shear fact that the game offers the player almost no more challenge as they level up is stupid, it means you dont really get that much stronger and makes the game feel broken

That's why they include a difficulty meter, if it's too easy for you, turn up the difficulty.

im going to make my point very clearly for you

its not that the game is too easy over all its that because its the same difficulty every time you level up means there is no reason to level up. there arnt any big bad monsters to to own you at level 1 and once you get to level 20 because the enemies are the same level as you, there isnt a sense that you have gotten stronger.

 

[Danpascooch]

snip

my post isnt just the fact i beat the game at a low level, the shear fact that the game offers the player almost no more challenge as they level up is stupid, it means you dont really get that much stronger and makes the game feel broken

That's why they include a difficulty meter, if it's too easy for you, turn up the difficulty.

im going to make my point very clearly for you

its not that the game is too easy over all its that because its the same difficulty every time you level up means there is no reason to level up. there arnt any big bad monsters to to own you at level 1 and once you get to level 20 because the enemies are the same level as you, there isnt a sense that you have gotten stronger.

I actually feel similarly, but there is one important difference.

As you level up you gain a variety of new abilities and so do the enemies, making combat a bit more tactical and complicated if you use your abilities wisely and turn up the difficulty accordingly. The sense of power comes from the fact that instead of swinging a rusty piece of shit you're now shooting lighting alongside a fucking dinosaur that you summoned.

Honestly, you get the same experience as scaling if you properly follow the area progression in a game without it, the advantage is this way you can truly explore the open world. But yeah, I do get how you feel.

 

[maturin]

Actually, I haven't heard a single reason why this is not bizarre or idiotic, and certainly nothing that suggests it's ENCOURAGED!

Did you read my post? I will repeat the important parts, in caps since you seem to put some stock in them.

At the start of the game, the game says GO HERE. Then GO HERE.

At that point, you realize OH GOD THE WORLD IS ENDING AND THE FREAKING DEVIL JUST KILLED A FEW THOUSAND PEOPLE.

I wonder what I should do in this situation? Maybe learn to pick locks and cast light spells in my spare time? Go deer-hunting or help passerby in danger?

Or maybe I should RESCUE THE WORLD'S ONLY HOPE FOR SURVIVAL. Naw, maybe some calisthenics and petty theft instead-- OH GOD THOSE GUYS ARE ATTACKING MY CHURCH and now MY CASTLE and now MY TOWN and now ALL THOSE OTHER TOWNS and now THAT ONE REALLY BIG TOWN and OH LOOK A DRAGON WTF HAPPENED AND I'm level 4.

So tell me again how people are functionally retarded for playing the main story quest the way it was designed to be played, and the only way in which it makes any narrative sense?

Morrowind's MQ at several points outright told you to get some experience and money, join some factions, etc. It was literally and thematically about the growth of you character, and the world would murder you if you weren't up to the task.

 

[Danpascooch]

Actually, I haven't heard a single reason why this is not bizarre or idiotic, and certainly nothing that suggests it's ENCOURAGED!

Did you read my post? I will repeat the important parts, in caps since you seem to put some stock in them.

At the start of the game, the game says GO HERE. Then GO HERE.

At that point, you realize OH GOD THE WORLD IS ENDING AND THE FREAKING DEVIL JUST KILLED A FEW THOUSAND PEOPLE.

I wonder what I should do in this situation? Maybe learn to pick locks and cast light spells in my spare time? Go deer-hunting or help passerby in danger?

Or maybe I should RESCUE THE WORLD'S ONLY HOPE FOR SURVIVAL. Naw, maybe some calisthenics and petty theft instead-- OH GOD THOSE GUYS ARE ATTACKING MY CHURCH and now MY CASTLE and now MY TOWN and now ALL THOSE OTHER TOWNS and now THAT ONE REALLY BIG TOWN and OH LOOK A DRAGON WTF HAPPENED AND I'm level 4.

So tell me again how people are functionally retarded for playing the main story quest the way it was designed to be played, and the only way in which it makes any narrative sense?

Morrowind's MQ at several points outright told you to get some experience and money, join some factions, etc. It was literally and thematically about the growth of you character, and the world would murder you if you weren't up to the task.

First of all, there are parts in the main story line where there is a drop off in urgency (such as just after getting Martin safely to the Blades, or the time when you are supposed to recruit other cities) secondly, don't say it was designed to play that way, the game is made to be an open world exploration, even if you don't feel that it makes narrative sense, you aren't qualified to speak for the developers intentions especially since most people don't play the way you think the developer intented them to, third, even if you abandon everything else to do JUST the main quest line, you will get significant enough gains in weapon, magic, and miscellanies skills such as athletics and acrobatics to be a decent level at the end as long as you don't make a specific effort not to. At the level cap? No. At half the level cap? Possibly not, but DEFINITELY not level fucking two.

 

[maturin]

the game is made to be an open world exploration

Hence the inconsistency inherent in the terribly written, massively inconsistent, lore-raping, no-fun, insulting to our intelligence main quest.

Possibly not, but DEFINITELY not level fucking two.

Again with the reading. Level 2 is the sole requirement for progressing at the midpoint of the quest. You might be like level 5 if you fast travel everywhere.

 

[dragonslayer32]

This is what I was afraid of. I loked oblivion's system and hated Fallout's. The only thing wrong with Oblivion's was the fact that your enemies scaled at the same rate. If they fixed that it would have been perfect.

 

[maturin]

This is what I was afraid of. I loked oblivion's system and hated Fallout's. The only thing wrong with Oblivion's was the fact that your enemies scaled at the same rate. If they fixed that it would have been perfect.

Yeah cause starving highwaymen decked out in full suits of rare magic armor from another dimensions makes sooooo much sense.

 

[dragonslayer32]

This is what I was afraid of. I loked oblivion's system and hated Fallout's. The only thing wrong with Oblivion's was the fact that your enemies scaled at the same rate. If they fixed that it would have been perfect.

Yeah cause starving highwaymen decked out in full suits of rare magic armor from another dimensions makes sooooo much sense.

That wouldn't happen if they didn't level with your character, you know the thing I was saying I wanted? Plus, they are Highwaymen, they rob and kill for a living, they ccould have came across armour on someone they killed.

 

[nuba km]

ya that's better so you'll encounter enemies that you can the kick the ass of now which you couldn't before but you will still run into hard enemies later to give you a challenge like in fallout three at level 30 you kick all kinds of ass but then albino rad scorpion death-claw or ghoul reaver and there is a fight to be had.

 

[maturin]

That wouldn't happen if they didn't level with your character, you know the thing I was saying I wanted?

Technically that's loot level scaling, not NPC level scaling. The thing which nerfs ancient, powerful Daedric artifacts and would turn the Holy Grail into a sippy cup if you got it at the wrong level.

Plus, they are Highwaymen, they rob and kill for a living, they ccould have came across armour on someone they killed.

Please. When the mutants in Fallout start rolling around in Abrams tanks, get back to me.


In Morrowind, Daedric armor was so rare that there wasn't even a complete set in the game. Every piece was hand-placed and well-hidden. Playing Oblivion is like playing Meryl Streep's character in The Devil Wears Prada. You decided what the world wears to work.

It's retarded.

"Hey look, that thief in charge of the Mages Guild leveled up. Get outa this cave, mudcrabs. The minotaurs have to move in now." Doesn't anyone have standards anymore? The slogan of this series is "live another life in another world.' I would rather that there was a world, not a themepark.