Skyrim, level-scaling, and you.

[dragonslayer32]

That wouldn't happen if they didn't level with your character, you know the thing I was saying I wanted?

Technically that's loot level scaling, not NPC level scaling. The thing which nerfs ancient, powerful Daedric artifacts and would turn the Holy Grail into a sippy cup if you got it at the wrong level.

Plus, they are Highwaymen, they rob and kill for a living, they ccould have came across armour on someone they killed.

Please. When the mutants in Fallout start rolling around in Abrams tanks, get back to me.


In Morrowind, Daedric armor was so rare that there wasn't even a complete set in the game. Every piece was hand-placed and well-hidden. Playing Oblivion is like playing Meryl Streep's character in The Devil Wears Prada. You decided what the world wears to work.

It's retarded.

It isn't 'retarded'. Plus, is their even one Abrams tank in Fallout? (I stopped playing it because it was terrible)
So what you are trying to say here is that highwaymen can't kill someone and steal their armour? Plus, highwaymen were some of the richest people going...
Also, you do realise that portals to oblivion (a deadric land) have opened all over the place? There are cults spread across cyrodill which worship deadric gods, hell, even the emperor's son used to dabble in it and you are trying to say that it shouldn't be easy to get a hold of? Please, I suggest you rethink what a highwayman does.

P.S. Please don't use words like 'retarded' in future when talking to me.

 

[Altorin]

There should be places that you fear at low level.

Like, in fantasy literature, there are horrible places that WILL KILL YOU if you're not prepared for them.

The Underdark? Mirkwood? ... Death Claw Sanctuary anyone?

This is the way to go. None of the dungeons in oblivion were particularly compelling because you always either had an easy time in them, or you had a hard time, depending on how high/how levelled you were.

 

[JemothSkarii]

I used to like Level Scaling for making the game feel a bit 'challenging' all the way through. But I miss the thrill of fighting a high level monster in the beginning of the game so then it would give you a REASON to level. I reckon in games they should have an option to ADD level scaling or not, appease both parties...
Plus I found it odd EVERY Highwayman had Glass armour and weapons in Oblivion.

 

[Diligent]

Level 60?

No fucking wonder you got raped.

Oblivion isn't meant to function as a game past level 30. Your combat skills cap at 100.

Yeah, haha, I may have gotten carried away, but there is so much wonderful stuff to do in the game.
But if it's not meant to function as a game after level 30, what's it meant to function as? A toaster strudel? It would be nice if they told you that somewhere, or perhaps capped out your leveling at 30 if you weren't meant to go past that (which I suppose is what they did in Fallout 3). It isn't cool that you can level yourself to a point where the game breaks.

 

[The Wykydtron]

I liked the the higher end of the level scaling, as you get to see all of those little Stunted Scamps at the start of Oblivion mature into those Daedric armored guys and cool lizard thingys (no idea what they're called)

And wandering into a place too difficult for you can be fucking annoying (CAZADORS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) But stealthing past 3 Deathclaws at level 3 (with basically no points in stealth) makes you feel damn cool

 

[Gibboniser]

I'm happy with that, one thing though, is that I don't want to be able to destroy everything, if I set out immediately from wherever you set out from, prison, ship, whatever, If I go exploring the mountain tops and come across some Dragon, I expect to die, quickly. Some enemies you have to train for, adds to the feeling of satisfaction when you actually kill them.

 

[omicron1]

Concept:
Let there be three levels of encounter: The Low-Level encounter, the High-Level encounter, and the Epic Encounter.
The Low-Level encounter is something designed for a character several levels your junior. When you enter this encounter, you should feel like an all-conquering hero, smashing through all opposition. Perhaps your foes should even turn tail and run. Music, lighting, and all should be triumphant and bright. There should still be useful, albeit scant, rewards - getting a dozen "Minor Health Potions" that heal 10 HP over ten seconds is useless when you have 500 HP. However, if you get one "Major Health Potion," it represents a useful reward for your stomping, and doesn't dissuade you from entering low-level regions.

The High-Level encounter is at or somewhat over your current level. It should pose a reasonable, fun challenge while not overwhelming the player with instant death. This one may scale down somewhat to keep from being overwhelming - a Level 20 quest that you approach at Level 10 might scale down to Level 15 - somewhat easier, but still a real challenge. This keeps the region between "too hard" and "too easy" sizeable, and increases playability. Music should be more tense, lighting darker, and rewards should scale up as the challenge does.

The Epic encounter represents a quest that you really have no business taking on. Kill a dragon when you're level 1? Good luck! There should be visual and audio cues to tell the player this - blood specks on the walls and floors, reddish or darkened lighting, and very tense/doleful music. Let the player know, without removing immersion, that this is not somewhere he wants to be right now. The challenge should not scale down at all, but the rewards should scale up - if you manage to defeat a hugely overpowered encounter somehow, you should feel like a Big Damn Hero and get said hero's loot, too.

 

[Danpascooch]

the game is made to be an open world exploration

Hence the inconsistency inherent in the terribly written, massively inconsistent, lore-raping, no-fun, insulting to our intelligence main quest.

Possibly not, but DEFINITELY not level fucking two.

Again with the reading. Level 2 is the sole requirement for progressing at the midpoint of the quest. You might be like level 5 if you fast travel everywhere.

You need to pay attention, and not quote me out of context like that, I said there is no way they will be level-fucking-two IF they don't intentionally try to keep their level down, which nobody does except as an experiment. I'm not talking about what the REQUIREMENT happens to be, I'm talking about what players actually experience if they don't try to break the game, because that's all that matters.

You also can't fast travel everywhere, because you need to first FIND all of the locations the main quest brings you to.

Whether or not you like the main quest is pretty irrelevant to what we're talking about, should I assume since you neglected to mention any of the things I said in my last post besides a half sentence quote taken out of context that you agree with the points I made?

 

[Danpascooch]

I don't really care how I level up, I just like to play the game. What do people not like about Level Scaling though??

Apparently, RPGs shouldn't give the player a consistent challenge, and you should be an over-powered bastard at the end game, or something. Grinding through tough spots should also totally be an option, too. And Bandits look silly in Glass Armor or whatever.

My issue with the scaling levels in oblivion is that it is NOT a consistent challenge.
My experience with the game was that I was enjoying it so much, and taking my sweet ass time that by the time I got to around level 60, the main quest was simply impossible -period- with the character I tried to build...never did actually finish the game.
Meanwhile, my dad who is an extremely unskilled gamer whizzed his way past the main story and final boss at level 6.
Level fucking 6.

The fact that the game seemed to be punishing me for playing the game more seemed wrong. It's not that I wanted to be an overpowered bastard, on the contrary I love a good challenge. But when you level your character up so high that the game becomes irreversibly impossible, there is a problem (coming from a guy who has finished 2 playthroughs of Demon's Souls).

Level 60? Is it even possible to get that high without modding/cheating?

(BTW, there is a difficulty slider)

 

[A Weary Exile]

GI cover story!? WANT NAO!

I can't wait for this game and the news that the leveling system of Oblivion is being rethought or just totally thrown out is just icing on the cake.

 

[Diligent]

Level 60? Is it even possible to get that high without modding/cheating?

(BTW, there is a difficulty slider)

Yes, it is totally possible to get that high without modding/cheating. Instead of restarting multiple characters, I just played the heck out of it with one. And yeah, the difficulty slider wasn't something I wanted to use, but I cracked, cranked it all the way down, and it did nothing.
My character was broken.

 

[Danpascooch]

Level 60? Is it even possible to get that high without modding/cheating?

(BTW, there is a difficulty slider)

Yes, it is totally possible to get that high without modding/cheating. Instead of restarting multiple characters, I just played the heck out of it with one. And yeah, the difficulty slider wasn't something I wanted to use, but I cracked, cranked it all the way down, and it did nothing.
My character was broken.

That sucks, sorry.

But hell, you enjoyed the game ALL THE WAY TO LEVEL 60!

That must have taken a fucking eternity, that's gotta count for something right?

I am very close to the level cap and everything works for me alright, maybe you should try a different strategy, ever think of enchanting a chameleon set and stealth killing?

I've heard with the proper enchantments, you can actually get 100% physical and 100% magic resistance, rendering you literally invincible to everything but arrows and fall damage, so there has to be SOME way for you to be able to continue winning in battle.

 

[maturin]

You need to pay attention, and not quote me out of context like that, I said there is no way they will be level-fucking-two IF they don't intentionally try to keep their level down, which nobody does except as an experiment. I'm not talking about what the REQUIREMENT happens to be, I'm talking about what players actually experience if they don't try to break the game, because that's all that matters.

It doesn't matter what context I quote you in, because I read it in context.

I never said people would beat the MQ at level 2. But you're bent on (loudly) making that point, framed as some sort of rebuttal to the lack of level requirements.

You also can't fast travel everywhere, because you need to first FIND all of the locations the main quest brings you to.

Weynon Priory and Kvatch are pre-discovered to prevent the player from having to do any playing. The many gates you have to closer are all ten feet outside the towns. Same with the temple.

Whether or not you like the main quest is pretty irrelevant to what we're talking about, should I assume since you neglected to mention any of the things I said in my last post besides a half sentence quote taken out of context that you agree with the points I made?

You made essentially two points. In arguing with me, you're just apologizing for bad game design and pacing.

 

[Danpascooch]

You need to pay attention, and not quote me out of context like that, I said there is no way they will be level-fucking-two IF they don't intentionally try to keep their level down, which nobody does except as an experiment. I'm not talking about what the REQUIREMENT happens to be, I'm talking about what players actually experience if they don't try to break the game, because that's all that matters.

It doesn't matter what context I quote you in, because I read it in context.

I never said people would beat the MQ at level 2. But you're bent on (loudly) making that point, framed as some sort of rebuttal to the lack of level requirements.

You also can't fast travel everywhere, because you need to first FIND all of the locations the main quest brings you to.

Weynon Priory and Kvatch are pre-discovered to prevent the player from having to do any playing. The many gates you have to closer are all ten feet outside the towns. Same with the temple.

Whether or not you like the main quest is pretty irrelevant to what we're talking about, should I assume since you neglected to mention any of the things I said in my last post besides a half sentence quote taken out of context that you agree with the points I made?

You made essentially two points. In arguing with me, you're just apologizing for bad game design and pacing.

I'm not apologizing for them, I'm saying why most of them don't make any difference at all.

And yeah, the fact that nobody beats the game at level two IS a good rebuttle to the problem that the game can be beaten at level 2, since, you know, it makes it completely fucking irrelevant.

I'm sticking with my two points because I believe they are correct and they have yet to be properly shot down. Your problem is that you are assuming that the design of the game was poor and that I am apologizing for it, when really it's just your OPINION that it is poor, and what I'm actually doing is trying to explain to you why it's not.

Of course the game isn't idiot proof, why should they bother to make it idiot proof? Idiots deserve whatever harm they inflict upon themselves by trying to beat the game at level 2 instead of enjoying it as they should.

 

[Chibz]

Oblivion's level scaling was bullshit. It should die in a fire.

 

[maturin]

And yeah, the fact that nobody beats the game at level two IS a good rebuttle to the problem that the game can be beaten at level 2, since, you know, it makes it completely fucking irrelevant.

*sigh*
So people can beat it at level 5. Whoop-de-do.

That brilliant observation which you have put such uncommon energy into professing doesn't make anything at all 'irrelevant' because the example of the level 2 restriction wasn't a complain in its own right but only a fact indicative of the overall complaint and problem which you have COMPLETELY IGNORED in this exchange, making it all a pedantic waste of time.

Regardless of what level people actually beat the MQ, and regardless of what their natural experience of the game is, it will still be an experience shaped by the shoddy level scaling mechanic of the game and will resemble the one panned by many, many posters in this thread.

what I'm actually doing is trying to explain to you why it's not.

So everything is okay because players will not be level 2 when they save the world from hell itself. Compelling.

Of course the game isn't idiot proof, why should they bother to make it idiot proof? Idiots deserve whatever harm they inflict upon themselves by trying to beat the game at level 2 instead of enjoying it as they should.

I have already shown you nigh irrefutably (since you didn't actually argue other than weakly point out that there is a lull in the action) that there is nothing idiotic about playing the game in the linear fashion that befits its story. Do you take a weeklong break in the middle of reading a book?

Your only actual contention here is in calling people idiots for beating the game at level 2, a strawman since I never suggested that the game encourages players to remain at the level when beating the MQ became possible.

And since this has all fast become a waste of time, here is the problem in a nutshell: defeating the forces of hell itself and saving the world with brute force should be difficult and scary. It is stupid that this can be accomplished by characters that would be hard-pressed to defeat a scarecrow in a real RPG and that the player has absolutely no consequences for neglecting his/her task of improving their skills, and that they face absolutely no consequences and are not made responsible for their actions. That there is no meaningful sense of progression, just incidental change wherein the world revolves unrealistically around the character in shallow, uninspired, immersion-breaking fashion.

 

[NezumiiroKitsune]

Actually, I haven't heard a single reason why this is not bizarre or idiotic, and certainly nothing that suggests it's ENCOURAGED!

Did you read my post? I will repeat the important parts, in caps since you seem to put some stock in them.

At the start of the game, the game says GO HERE. Then GO HERE.

At that point, you realize OH GOD THE WORLD IS ENDING AND THE FREAKING DEVIL JUST KILLED A FEW THOUSAND PEOPLE.

I wonder what I should do in this situation? Maybe learn to pick locks and cast light spells in my spare time? Go deer-hunting or help passerby in danger?

Or maybe I should RESCUE THE WORLD'S ONLY HOPE FOR SURVIVAL. Naw, maybe some calisthenics and petty theft instead-- OH GOD THOSE GUYS ARE ATTACKING MY CHURCH and now MY CASTLE and now MY TOWN and now ALL THOSE OTHER TOWNS and now THAT ONE REALLY BIG TOWN and OH LOOK A DRAGON WTF HAPPENED AND I'm level 4.

So tell me again how people are functionally retarded for playing the main story quest the way it was designed to be played, and the only way in which it makes any narrative sense?

Morrowind's MQ at several points outright told you to get some experience and money, join some factions, etc. It was literally and thematically about the growth of you character, and the world would murder you if you weren't up to the task.

This is what I liked about New Vegas, you didn't feel compelled to preform any vital task, you weren't coerced in any direction for the sake of humanity or any other fantastical aim, you were just given the suggestion you might want to go after your assailants. You don't have to, but if you want to, you can. The epic scale of what you were involved in evolved throughout gameplay and you became well reknown in the wastes eventually picking a side or going it alone, or indeed, ignoring the problem altogether, since you aren't being caled up by anyone to save them or fight for them (well apart from one guy but he's a autocrat businessman who you don't feel too bad turning down).

I'm sure Bethesda will have learnt from this one thing from Obsidian, which should make Skyrim much better paced.

 

[maturin]

This is what I liked about New Vegas, you didn't feel compelled to preform any vital task, you weren't coerced in any direction for the sake of humanity or any other fantastical aim, you were just given the suggestion you might want to go after your assailants. You don't have to, but if you want to, you can. The epic scale of what you were involved in evolved throughout gameplay and you became well reknown in the wastes eventually picking a side or going it alone, or indeed, ignoring the problem altogether, since you aren't being caled up by anyone to save them or fight for them (well apart from one guy but he's a autocrat businessman who you don't feel too bad turning down).

I'm sure Bethesda will have learnt from this one thing from Obsidian, which should make Skyrim much better paced.

Morrowind was the same way.

The pace of the MQ was glacial, and it could easily take you from level 1 into the twenties. It began with mystery, and you were half detective, half pilgrim, learning about the gameworld, thousands of years of history and yourself along the way.

 

[Danpascooch]

And yeah, the fact that nobody beats the game at level two IS a good rebuttle to the problem that the game can be beaten at level 2, since, you know, it makes it completely fucking irrelevant.

*sigh*
So people can beat it at level 5. Whoop-de-do.

That brilliant observation which you have put such uncommon energy into professing doesn't make anything at all 'irrelevant' because the example of the level 2 restriction wasn't a complain in its own right but only a fact indicative of the overall complaint and problem which you have COMPLETELY IGNORED in this exchange, making it all a pedantic waste of time.

Regardless of what level people actually beat the MQ, and regardless of what their natural experience of the game is, it will still be an experience shaped by the shoddy level scaling mechanic of the game and will resemble the one panned by many, many posters in this thread.

what I'm actually doing is trying to explain to you why it's not.

So everything is okay because players will not be level 2 when they save the world from hell itself. Compelling.

Of course the game isn't idiot proof, why should they bother to make it idiot proof? Idiots deserve whatever harm they inflict upon themselves by trying to beat the game at level 2 instead of enjoying it as they should.

I have already shown you nigh irrefutably (since you didn't actually argue other than weakly point out that there is a lull in the action) that there is nothing idiotic about playing the game in the linear fashion that befits its story. Do you take a weeklong break in the middle of reading a book?

Your only actual contention here is in calling people idiots for beating the game at level 2, a strawman since I never suggested that the game encourages players to remain at the level when beating the MQ became possible.

And since this has all fast become a waste of time, here is the problem in a nutshell: defeating the forces of hell itself and saving the world with brute force should be difficult and scary. It is stupid that this can be accomplished by characters that would be hard-pressed to defeat a scarecrow in a real RPG and that the player has absolutely no consequences for neglecting his/her task of improving their skills, and that they face absolutely no consequences and are not made responsible for their actions. That there is no meaningful sense of progression, just incidental change wherein the world revolves unrealistically around the character in shallow, uninspired, immersion-breaking fashion.

Overall complaint and problem? Do tell, because in fact it's not technically ignoring it, if you haven't FUCKING MENTIONED IT ONCE! It's called "not being able to read your mind"

This entire time you've been talking about how you can beat the game at level two, if that's part of some larger complaint you need to VOCALIZE that for Christ's sake.

 

[maturin]

Overall complaint and problem? Do tell, because in fact it's not technically ignoring it, if you haven't FUCKING MENTIONED IT ONCE! It's called "not being able to read your mind"

This entire time you've been talking about how you can beat the game at level two, if that's part of some larger complaint you need to VOCALIZE that for Christ's sake.

You were the one talking about context, so I assumed you had read... the thread.