Skyrim: Same button-mashing level system as before?

[TheEldestScroll]

all fixed. no level scaling, and the perk based skill system will remove any need for grinding. its gonna be great if they deliver on their promises.

 

[Kinguendo]

No, this is not semantics. This is your whole entire fucking complaint. That I claimed to know something about the way you played the game. When did I claim that I know the combination(s) of interests that get you to level on par with the enemies? I never claimed to know anything about the way you played.

Also, telling someone to drop semantics when the whole point has been a misunderstanding (that is probably just manufactured troll shit) is another sign of someone who I am surprised is capable of breathing.

I already made my argument that you ignored by going "LOL I'M A MASTER!!!" like a fucking child. Like I said, you will not level properly if the way you're interested in playing doesn't make you level the right way. Then you decided to jump in like a tool and talk about how skilled you are even though it was obvious if you fucking READ WHAT I SAID that it has nothing to do with skill and thus any claim of mastery is incompatible as a response.

"No, just that you're interests allign in a way that make the game easier" - Now take in to consideration that at no point prior (Or after, for that matter.) to this had I said anything about my interests OH and you are right... this isnt semantics, you are flat out wrong. You never stated or implied there are WAYS to make the game easier, you stated there was ONE way and that is the one I quoted above. Your argument is entirely based on false assumptions and poorly constructed sentences.

How about you fucking read.

You did play in a way that you came out leveled along with the enemies. You're not aarguing this.

It doesn't matter if I know anything about your interests, infact it wouldn't even help because quite honestly I am not making a new character to find out every way you can possibly play without grinding to come out decently level. All I need to assume is that your interests are in game, which is entirely reasonable to assume given that you played the game.

implied there are WAYS to make the game easier, you stated there was ONE way and that is the one I quoted above

No I fucking didn't I gave an example. Man I hope to god you get banned I'm way too pissed off from this troll for me to be satisfied before I see a ban. The only thing that can possibly be minsconstrued by the mind of someone mentally competent states the exact opposite, that there is only one way to end up underleveled. See here

if you play a certain way you will just be at a point where everything feels like an invincible wall of steel you're hacking away by level 20.

Of course it does, you are assuming that I played differently to the people who struggled because of your earlier outburst against the word "skill". You are assuming I didnt play exactly the same way as this hypothetical "wall of steel... level 20... etc.".

And no you didnt give an example, you stated that my interests made it easier for me... there was no implication here, you are flat out stating that you know my interests and saying that because I didnt have as much trouble as other people therefore I must not be playing it the same way as them and for all you know I could have been playing it EXACLTY the same way as you prior hypothetical about the invincible wall... so in that case the way I am playing is making it both easier and near impossible. This is the gaming equivalent of Shrodingers Cat.

 

[mike1921]

No, this is not semantics. This is your whole entire fucking complaint. That I claimed to know something about the way you played the game. When did I claim that I know the combination(s) of interests that get you to level on par with the enemies? I never claimed to know anything about the way you played.

Also, telling someone to drop semantics when the whole point has been a misunderstanding (that is probably just manufactured troll shit) is another sign of someone who I am surprised is capable of breathing.

I already made my argument that you ignored by going "LOL I'M A MASTER!!!" like a fucking child. Like I said, you will not level properly if the way you're interested in playing doesn't make you level the right way. Then you decided to jump in like a tool and talk about how skilled you are even though it was obvious if you fucking READ WHAT I SAID that it has nothing to do with skill and thus any claim of mastery is incompatible as a response.

"No, just that you're interests allign in a way that make the game easier" - Now take in to consideration that at no point prior (Or after, for that matter.) to this had I said anything about my interests OH and you are right... this isnt semantics, you are flat out wrong. You never stated or implied there are WAYS to make the game easier, you stated there was ONE way and that is the one I quoted above. Your argument is entirely based on false assumptions and poorly constructed sentences.

How about you fucking read.

You did play in a way that you came out leveled along with the enemies. You're not aarguing this.

It doesn't matter if I know anything about your interests, infact it wouldn't even help because quite honestly I am not making a new character to find out every way you can possibly play without grinding to come out decently level. All I need to assume is that your interests are in game, which is entirely reasonable to assume given that you played the game.

implied there are WAYS to make the game easier, you stated there was ONE way and that is the one I quoted above

No I fucking didn't I gave an example. Man I hope to god you get banned I'm way too pissed off from this troll for me to be satisfied before I see a ban. The only thing that can possibly be minsconstrued by the mind of someone mentally competent states the exact opposite, that there is only one way to end up underleveled. See here

if you play a certain way you will just be at a point where everything feels like an invincible wall of steel you're hacking away by level 20.

Of course it does, you are assuming that I played differently to the people who struggled because of your earlier outburst against the word "skill". You are assuming I didnt play exactly the same way as this hypothetical "wall of steel... level 20... etc.".

And no you didnt give an example, you stated that my interests made it easier for me... there was no implication here, you are flat out stating that you know my interests and saying that because I didnt have as much trouble as other people therefore I must not be playing it the same way as them and for all you know I could have been playing it EXACLTY the same way as you prior hypothetical about the invincible wall... so in that case the way I am playing is making it both easier and near impossible. This is the gaming equivalent of Shrodingers Cat.

No, I am not stating I know anything about your interests because I don't know which ones make the game easier. For all I know they're just mine but instead of destruction magic you took conjureror (I AM GIVING AN EXAMPLE, I AM NOT STATING YOU TOOK CONJURATION MAGIC)

If you're playing it the same way as I was a single zombie takes 20 minutes to defeat. Here's the first assumption I will state about your interest ,I guarantee you that you didn't. You weren't fighting invincible walls of bricks as literally every enemy.

 

[Tax_Document]

Oblivion had the problem with the leveling enemies. With the result that you had to get the maximum out of every level, and you HAD to have some focus on combat-skills, or else the whole world would get more effective than you at fighting.
Morrowind had the same problem but with no leveling enemies (you fought the same cliff-racers still at level EPIC) so there was no need to rush your combat skills.

I pray to the gaming gods that they dont do the same mistake in Skyrim. They said they had learned.

They're not, it is a zone-based thing now, ye' know, Frost Giants on mountain, Forest Trolls in Forest.

 

[Hyper-space]

It sounds like you intentionally made it into a grind fest. That system has been in TES for some time now, I doubt it will be changing in Skyrim, though I'm not going to rule it out after seeing the revamped skill system.

I wanted to maximize my attributes so at level 10 I wasn't getting creamed by other level 10 critters. I tried playing through on normal difficulty just leveling the way I liked and I found that certain things I used - alchemy, for example - could NOT be major skills because they caused me to level much, much too fast.

Well then the grind isn't the problem, it's a symptom. You were made to grind because of the level-scaling, something that I didn't like at all. Punish me for doing well in the game? Fine, I'll beat the game on level 1 and show you who's boss.

But still, you are the one turning it into a grind-fest. I actually played the game instead of thinking about MIN-MAX'ing all of my stats, and guess what? it wasn't a grind-fest because i did what i wanted, instead of treating it as world of warcraft.

 

[YawningAngel]

There's nothing wrong with Oblivion's levelling system, it just so happens that trying to raise your stats artificially is boring. The OP could solve this problem by just using the game's console with much the same effect.

 

[Hiphophippo]

And please don't tell me the C I've seen people keep putting in front of RPG stands for "combat".

It stands for computer, I believe. Which is arrogant, imo.

Maybe I'm old (I am) but CRPG always referred to video game rpgs whereas RPG referred to tabletop rpgs. At least to me. Nothing arrogant about it on my side of the computer. The term may have evolved into something else over the years but I can assure you that's where it started.

edit

Also, as I read the rest of the thread I see this has already been covered. We'll take my post as a bullet point to the previous ones then eh? heh.

 

[Spacewolf]

the bit i didnt like about oblivion was that killing an enamy often felt like trying to cut down a tree especially noticable in bears where you could be hacking/stabbing it for ages before it died and it obviously wasnt wearing armour

 

[Therumancer]

Played Oblivion. Liked it; hated the leveling system. I should NOT have to sit in a corner blocking with my shield while a giant rat attacks me over and over in order to raise my "endurance" trait. I should NOT have to raise my intelligence, etc., by button-mashing low-level spells before I "level" my character. I hated that about Oblivion - if I started getting close to "leveling" and my "attributes" weren't maxed out to +5 each, especially in the first 10-20 levels or so, I felt compelled to sit there and "make the most out of my level" by mashing the "Minor detect life" spell or whatever... over... and over... and over...

So, is Skyrim going to be doing this as well? Have they released anything on the leveling system yet? Because, truth be told, that would be enough for me to pass on Skyrim until it's on sale through Steam as a GOTY edition or something. I'm not paying for a game when it comes out just to be frustrated like that again, and I might never pick it up at all.

If, however, they fixed the leveling system so that you don't have to "manage" how quickly you level to gain attribute points based on minor/major skills, I'd be happy to play it.

The leveling system was just awful. It ruined a perfectly wonderful CRPG for me.

Well, to be fair this is more a problem with gamers than the system itself. The idea was actually to have a game where the skills you used went up slowly over time as you played, and based on what you were actually using. If you just played the game straight out, there wouldn't be an issue. The auto-scaling of encounters also meant that you wouldn't be punished for grinding your character up in levels.

I don't think the level scaling aspect of things worked, but the way skills increased was absolutly fine in both concept and implementation.

There was no real need for you to sit there and grind block on a rat unless you were trying to raise levels using it, or "cheez" the game by playing entirely with disproportionatly powerful miscelleneous skills while remaining at a low level so the monsters would remain trivial.

I get what your saying, but chances are that catering to someone who grinded like that for power, by simply making characrters uber a lot more easily, would wind up upsetting a lot of the people who felt that the game was far too easy to begin with.

The thing is that if you don't get satisfaction from playing the system rather than the game, there is no real reason to grind up ridiculously exploitive characters.

Me, personally, I can have fun either as intended, or by building "uberman".

Also, I'll say flat out that the smart grind-maniacs exploited the tutorial and did most of their grinding for things like block or casting a few low level spells there, before you finally selected your major and minor skills. That way they could set things up how they wanted and say begin any character with an outrageous levle of block skill if they so chose. Meaning that the grind was something you only had to do ONCE since you could always reload before leaving the sewers and set up a new character with those grinded skills from the exit (changing race, gender, stat and skill selections, etc...).

 

[Ellen of Kitten]

It sounds like you intentionally made it into a grind fest. That system has been in TES for some time now, I doubt it will be changing in Skyrim, though I'm not going to rule it out after seeing the revamped skill system.

I share much of the OP's concerns. The first time I played, I just did whatever and took my levels where they came. Before to long, every 1 vs 1 fight was equally matched, and anything with any serious bite was nearly always fatal. God forbid I ever had to fight more than one enemy, and I'd have to skip dungeons all together if they were filled with (commonly) undead; my poisons wouldn't work on them after all causing me to lose what little edge I had.

When I caught on that the monsters leveled with me, and that my traits didn't always level equally, I realized I could manage my leveling, and to insure that the game wouldn't unbalance in the higher levels, I'd keep track of where I was in the current level scheme. I found an effective way of helping was to tailor a class where the skills I'd need to level were the ones most difficult to level; Athletics, and acrobatics, for example. Hand to Hand because it was a skill I never used. If I was a mage, I'd toss heavy armor in there cause I'd never be wearing heavy armor (not entirely true). Anyway, you get the point. I did it this way so that the enemies wouldn't out class me to fast, and I could enjoy the game.

Down side was that the skills I did want to use were low level right off the bat, and I'd have to practice/train them up with the quickness, because they were pathetic. Spamming Cure Minor Wounds to raise my restoration past a lvl 15 (out of 100) just so I could get a better but still weak healing spell sucked. But it was still better than the alternative.

Anyway, I'm betting the folks behind Oblivion learned from their folly. Fallout 3 showed me that much. So I'm not worried. I will be keeping my ears open though... and waiting for the GOTY edition, since I know a zillion DLC thingies will come out in the first year or two.

 

[Gill Kaiser]

They are changing it

http://www.fragworld.org/frag/general/skyrim-leveling-and-skills-systems-clarified.html

I agree about the stupid leveling system where you had to spam low level spells over and over just to level in that area. Its much simpler and smarter the way the are making it for Skyrim.

Thanks for showing this, I am now not getting Skyrim.
What I loved about Morrowind was that you used the skills you needed and got lvls from them, and those skills got better. Now it is going to be generic RPG skill lvling.

What? If anything, the new system is MORE like that. Now it's ENTIRELY based on the skills you use getting better.

 

[crimsontide57]

I feel like an arse agreeing but i really did hate the leveling system. mainly because i really didnt see the point in alot of the skills. i mean if athletics was one of your main skills have fun leveling up. and if you were a tank like i was then the only way to level up was dungeon diving. and if you WERE specialized to combat it was way to hard to go back and do really fun thigns like say the thieves gild quests. i felt forced to start a new game with a thief because my level 25 custom-class tank with maxed strength, endurance and speed wasnt capeable of robbing a farmhouse. it just felt like i was caged, like my class limited me to a certain type of 'lifestyle' in the game. im glad that classes are going to be a non-issue and i do hope that major and minor skills are getting out of here... but thats just my opinion

 

[Kalabrikan]

Morrowind had a similar system to this; all you needed to do to level up was continuously cast a spell.

 

[Kinguendo]

No, I am not stating I know anything about your interests because I don't know which ones make the game easier. For all I know they're just mine but instead of destruction magic you took conjureror (I AM GIVING AN EXAMPLE, I AM NOT STATING YOU TOOK CONJURATION MAGIC)

Wrong again, there is just as much chance as me having played EXACTLY the same classes as you. Your only problem is that I found it easier than you and you cant accept that.

And I know as you said "For all I know" this time.

If you're playing it the same way as I was a single zombie takes 20 minutes to defeat. Here's the first assumption I will state about your interest ,I guarantee you that you didn't. You weren't fighting invincible walls of bricks as literally every enemy.

No, you are right... I wasnt because, as I said, I dont suck at Oblivion. Basic knowledge of the game would be included in that little bundle, you would think that after 20 minutes you might try something else. This pretence that it takes no skill, its all about what you pick at the beginning and if you pick Destruction magic zombies become invincible... its just not true.Picking conjuration instead of destruction magic wouldnt make zombies any easier to kill so just stop.

 

[Azure-Supernova]

The fact that monsters and other enemies level up at the same time as your character leads to the "leveling problem". If you make poor choices in leveling up, your character will become weaker than the monsters as your level progresses.

But the key phrase there is the one I bolded. There is no problem if you play your class correctly. Want to survive as a mage? Use the spells within the schools you want to become godly in. Want to survive as a warrior? Choose the skills you want to use as a warrior, i.e. blade, block and heavy/light armour.

There's no 'leveling issue' if you play to your classes strength. The problem refers to some skills levelling far too quickly and at the same time naturally (Athletics, Acrobatics, Alchemy and Mercantile) whilst other are much slower (Marksman, Security, Sneak). The system wasn't bad, the implementation was. Also a lot of contributors of the UESP are rather elitist and condescending; so their articles can come across as if being written for 'peasants'.

Raising Marksman by hitting targets with your bow and arrow makes sense. Raising Alchemy by creating a lot of potions makes sense. On one hand I'm quite happy that they've 'streamlined' (is surprised by lack of PC crowd flooding in to call 'dumbing down') the skill system; on the other I'm apprehensive; I hope this doesn't turn Skyrim into a joke for its lack of difficulty and challenge.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

They did say they were tweaking the levelling system somewhere because they were unhappy with how if you levelled up from athletics (ie, you liked to push the run button everywhere) You would basically be punished because your combat skills would be behind the creatures that the game spawned for you.

I think I saw it in one of the game informer articles or vids. Was a little while ago now. But I do remeber them saying they were looking at it so I wouldn't worry too much.

 

[mike1921]

No, I am not stating I know anything about your interests because I don't know which ones make the game easier. For all I know they're just mine but instead of destruction magic you took conjureror (I AM GIVING AN EXAMPLE, I AM NOT STATING YOU TOOK CONJURATION MAGIC)

Wrong again, there is just as much chance as me having played EXACTLY the same classes as you. Your only problem is that I found it easier than you and you cant accept that.

And I know as you said "For all I know" this time.

If you're playing it the same way as I was a single zombie takes 20 minutes to defeat. Here's the first assumption I will state about your interest ,I guarantee you that you didn't. You weren't fighting invincible walls of bricks as literally every enemy.

No, you are right... I wasnt because, as I said, I dont suck at Oblivion. Basic knowledge of the game would be included in that little bundle, you would think that after 20 minutes you might try something else. This pretence that it takes no skill, its all about what you pick at the beginning and if you pick Destruction magic zombies become invincible... its just not true.Picking conjuration instead of destruction magic wouldnt make zombies any easier to kill so just stop.

No I confirmed it because you confirmed by lack of rejection that it didn't take you 10 minutes to kill a fucking zombie. You did not play like me

No, you are right... I wasnt because, as I said, I dont suck at Oblivion. Basic knowledge of the game would be included in that little bundle, you would think that after 20 minutes you might try something else. This pretence that it takes no skill, its all about what you pick at the beginning and if you pick Destruction magic zombies become invincible... its just not true.Picking conjuration instead of destruction magic wouldnt make zombies any easier to kill so just stop.

I feel like I'm talking to a fucking kindergartener.

No, it's not all about what you pick at the beginning it's also what you choose to rank. Stop with the assumptions.

I never said conjuration or destruction don't work against zombies. You may LEVEL YOUR STATS better if you choose conjuration instead of destruction. Destruction magic can be an instant win switch but that doesn't mean your stats won't level like shit. Stop assuming that I'm talking about one skill being better than another, I'm talking about combinations of skills and combinations of the way you can play the game. A single skill being better against certain enemies is irrelevant.

Where's the skill involved in leveling decently? It's either by chance you end up leveled decent (plenty of people think the leveling is bullshit. I am not alone. You're not going to tell me). The only thing that can be considered a skill in this game is defeating enemies and I do that extremely well for someone who takes 500 hits to take down a zombie. And if you actually know how the leveling system works and decide to grind certain skills you will turn out extremely over leveled. It's hardly a skill if anyone who looks at a guide explaining how the leveling system works can do it and a lot of people do it without trying.

I just played the game doing whatever I wanted, I should be able to do that and as long as I'm not reaching every level by ranking persuade or mercantile I shouldn't become so underleveled that everything is a fucking wall. Also there shouldn't be benefits to selecting major skills you're not going to use. If you never use your major skills you will be over powered.

 

[Dogstile]

It sounds like you intentionally made it into a grind fest. That system has been in TES for some time now, I doubt it will be changing in Skyrim, though I'm not going to rule it out after seeing the revamped skill system.

I wanted to maximize my attributes so at level 10 I wasn't getting creamed by other level 10 critters. I tried playing through on normal difficulty just leveling the way I liked and I found that certain things I used - alchemy, for example - could NOT be major skills because they caused me to level much, much too fast.

Then swallow your pride and tweak the difficulty. I had it down roughly at 25%. Game was and still is amazingly fun.

Although I don't advise leveling up past level 4 anyway. The game doesn't level up NPC's

 

[Saelune]

Was I the only person that liked level scaling? It meant they always had some good equipment. I hated it in Fallout where you still got attacked by the fiends or raiders or whatever that were so low levelled with such poor equipment I made a loss simply by shooting them.

Well, I like roleplaying, and it's bloody hard to roleplay if at level 10 all the rad roaches, mirelurks and raiders have gone extinct and all been replaced by legions upon legions of elite enclave stormtroopers.

How the hell am I supposed to be immersed in an environment where whole sections of the fauna vanish instantly once I take a nap?!

This is one reason I prefer Morrowind. Everything was pre-set. That means you can be lvl 1 and fight things upwards of lvl 20, or vice versa. Really, I would prefer a mix. Perhaps the deeper into the wilderness lies more powerful enemies compaired to the cave on the outskirt of town that gets cleared regularly.
I like dungeons refilling, but I was not a fan of the scaling.

As for the leveling, I like it because it is the closest to real. Other games, you can fight with a sword only, then somehow learn new spells....

 

[thenoblitt]

i enjoyed it very much, also if you didnt want to level you could just not sleep in a bed, but if you worked on your skills you leveled up fairly simple and effective