Smaller Devs Abused By Steam's "No Questions Asked" Refund Policy

[Kameburger]

What kind of non-sense DRM are they supposing they'll put in that won't allow customers to get refunds on steam? I would venture to say that he's taking the piss by bringing up DRM at all in a completely unrelated conversation.

The DRM, in this case, is because Gratuitus Space Battles doesn't use Steam's native DRM.

As in, you could pay for the game, download it, move the files somewhere else on your computer, refund the game, then play the copy you made. Essentially, you could use Steam to pirate the game. Hence, DRM.

Ahh I see, that changes it quite a bit then doesn't it, but really only for that guy... I guess I see his point though, if you were to use steam as just as a store front and have their stuff be completely DRM free, then you would probably fall victim to people gaming the system. That's kind of a shame. Not enough to change that system, but an unfortunate casualty I guess.

 

[Lightspeaker]

If someone buys a game, plays through it, and legitimately hates it I can see how they would want a refund. I'm not talking about those situations though. I'm purely speaking of people who would treat it as a rental service/abuse it. Buy a short game, finish it, and then ask for a refund whether or not they enjoyed the game.

It has been pointed out many, many, many times now...hell I've pointed it out something like four times across two threads myself...that this argument is total nonsense. And the reason it is total nonsense is because of the fact that piracy is a thing.

There is zero reason to abuse Steam refunds to play things for free when you can just pirate it. Steam refunds is a godawful way to rip off a developer. To quote myself:

Lets be blunt here. Comparison of two methods to get a game for free if a person has no intention of paying:

Steam refunds:
- First have to buy the game
- Then can only play it for two hours.
- Have to play those two hours within a couple of weeks of purchase.
- Then have to go through the process of getting a refund on the item and hope on steam's support to not mess up.
- Can't do it very often because Valve will revoke your ability to do it if you're found to be abusing it.

Piracy:
- Put on your eyepatch and strap on a cutlass.
- Download the game. No purchase necessary at all.
- Can play it for however long you want, whenever you want. DLC free too.
- Don't have to deal with getting a refund to make it free.
- No DRM.
- Don't have to worry about getting locked out from getting future titles for free.

Its horribly inefficient. Requires you to risk actual money. Takes time to get the money back. Has a bunch of restrictions. And finally might result in losing your ability to continue to do it if you do it too often. Why would anyone ever choose to do that rather than just outright pirate the game?

They wouldn't. People who actively want to screw devs and steal from them are not going to use this system. The people who WILL use this system are ones that have gotten duped and/or are unsatisfied with their product. Which is what refunds are actually for.

I'm sorry, but if you checked the store lately, you would had seen the Greenlight section saturated with horrible quality games, designed to be blatant cash-grabs (the equivalent of CoD-clones in the indie market); which made good indie games very difficult to find.

I have never had a problem with that, before i spend a single dollar, i go to youtube and check if the game is any good, or if is a clone of something better, i do my due diligence.

The fact that consumers are having to do "due diligence" on products that cost a couple of quid its utterly ridiculous. Its a good habit but its shockingly damning on the game industry that its actually necessary to do this.

If on a whim I go into Subway to spend a few quid on a sandwich I shouldn't have to spend half an hour or more beforehand asking all the other customers what they thought, examining the sandwiches that they're eating and checking online for reviews of that particular establishment just to guarantee they won't serve me a dead dog in a bun. In this particular case if I take a bite and find they've given me a crap sandwich I can go back to the counter, complain and demand a refund or replacement. Until now this wasn't possible with Steam, so all impulse-buys were final.

 

[Depulcator]

If you don't like it, try to take your shitty game to a place that has standards like GoG and see if it even gets listed. If not, suck it up and deal with it. And for the people who don't like it just don't get a refund and let them keep your money they scammed you out of.

 

[burnout02urza]

Can I say that I'm absolutely delighted by this?

The day of the knife has come, and it's the indie developers who make - Let's be blunt - shitty games who have their heads on the chopping block. And now power's back in the hands of the consumer, it's time to drive the knife home and twist the blade until you see daylight.

This is absolutely amazing, and the whining by devs is just icing on the cake.

 

[Bat Vader]

It has been pointed out many, many, many times now...hell I've pointed it out something like four times across two threads myself...that this argument is total nonsense. And the reason it is total nonsense is because of the fact that piracy is a thing.

Except I have been saying IF the whole time though. Also, if you have noticed in my posts that I posted in here that I am not against Steam giving refunds. I support it. I just don't want a-holes to abuse it and ruin it for everyone else. At the same time though I wouldn't put it past some people to abuse the system though just for a laugh. People are a-holes. Just look at the fake 7,000 euro donation story that happened on Kickstarter about a week ago. I think we can both agree that anyone who knowingly abuses the refund system is scum. IF it happens though and people do abuse the system the pieces of scum should be punished.

Also, this thread is 8 pages long and will soon have 248 posts. 4 posts is a drop in the bucket.

 

[Lightspeaker]

Except I have been saying IF the whole time though. Also, if you have noticed in my posts that I posted in here that I am not against Steam giving refunds. I support it. I just don't want a-holes to abuse it and ruin it for everyone else. At the same time though I wouldn't put it past some people to abuse the system though just for a laugh. People are a-holes. Just look at the fake 7,000 euro donation story that happened on Kickstarter about a week ago. I think we can both agree that anyone who knowingly abuses the refund system is scum. IF it happens though and people do abuse the system the pieces of scum should be punished.

So? And what? What is your endgame here? That a minority of people absolutely suck? Sure, I can get on board with that. That a sizable fraction of people will abuse this system? An in any way statistically significant number of people will abuse it for the jollies and get away with it? Not buying that.

You mention this fake 7,000 euro donation on Kickstarter. But that's an entirely different kettle of fish. That is ONE person making a donation and then withdrawing it to screw with a developer. I could do that right now if I wanted for the lulz. I won't, because I'm not an arse like that. But the point is that anyone could do it single-handedly.

What you are describing as being a "concern", meanwhile, would require hundreds or even thousands of people to decide to systematically abuse it just to screw with ONE developer. Not because they want the game for free (because as pointed out its better to just pirate it) but because they actively want to bugger up the developer's accounts for that month and give them a false sense of satisfaction one time and then take it away. Such a nefarious plan! And that all of those people would also have to get away with it to keep doing it, otherwise it'd be a one-off event that I'm sure lots of parts of the gaming press would get very angry about before it all blows over.

I mean it just isn't going to happen. Is it a possibility? Yes. Is it LIKELY? No. Because it requires a huge amount of people to actively put themselves out and risk their own money just to mess with at most a couple of developers (putting in hundreds of requests is going to be a huge red flag after all).

Also, this thread is 8 pages long and will soon have 248 posts. 4 posts is a drop in the bucket.

And some of those posts weren't even in this thread but in the prior thread about this. But you're being totally disingenuous with this comment because surprise surprise I am not the only person who has pointed out the stupidity of the "but it'll get abused to get free games" argument when compared to piracy. Plenty of people have brought it up to the point that I really cannot see how you missed it.

But for the sake of argument lets play your game for a moment. Lets do a quick scan for mentions of piracy as being something people would do instead of this convoluted method of returns:
Previous thread - Around 15 mentions of "pirate" or "piracy" in the first two pages (70 posts).
This thread - Around 15 mentions of "pirate" or "piracy" in the first two pages (70 posts).

This is not me saying this alone. Its been brought up repeatedly by lots of people. If someone wants to play a game for free they're just going to go download it from a pirate website. I can't say I approve, but that's just the way things are; some people want games for free even when they could legitimately buy them. But steam refunds is just a bad way to do it.

 

[Bat Vader]

Except I have been saying IF the whole time though. Also, if you have noticed in my posts that I posted in here that I am not against Steam giving refunds. I support it. I just don't want a-holes to abuse it and ruin it for everyone else. At the same time though I wouldn't put it past some people to abuse the system though just for a laugh. People are a-holes. Just look at the fake 7,000 euro donation story that happened on Kickstarter about a week ago. I think we can both agree that anyone who knowingly abuses the refund system is scum. IF it happens though and people do abuse the system the pieces of scum should be punished.

So? And what? What is your endgame here? That a minority of people absolutely suck? Sure, I can get on board with that. That a sizable fraction of people will abuse this system? An in any way statistically significant number of people will abuse it for the jollies and get away with it? Not buying that.

You mention this fake 7,000 euro donation on Kickstarter. But that's an entirely different kettle of fish. That is ONE person making a donation and then withdrawing it to screw with a developer. I could do that right now if I wanted for the lulz. I won't, because I'm not an arse like that. But the point is that anyone could do it single-handedly.

What you are describing as being a "concern", meanwhile, would require hundreds or even thousands of people to decide to systematically abuse it just to screw with ONE developer. Not because they want the game for free (because as pointed out its better to just pirate it) but because they actively want to bugger up the developer's accounts for that month and give them a false sense of satisfaction one time and then take it away. Such a nefarious plan! And that all of those people would also have to get away with it to keep doing it, otherwise it'd be a one-off event that I'm sure lots of parts of the gaming press would get very angry about before it all blows over.

I mean it just isn't going to happen. Is it a possibility? Yes. Is it LIKELY? No. Because it requires a huge amount of people to actively put themselves out and risk their own money just to mess with at most a couple of developers (putting in hundreds of requests is going to be a huge red flag after all).

Also, this thread is 8 pages long and will soon have 248 posts. 4 posts is a drop in the bucket.

And some of those posts weren't even in this thread but in the prior thread about this. But you're being totally disingenuous with this comment because surprise surprise I am not the only person who has pointed out the stupidity of the "but it'll get abused to get free games" argument when compared to piracy. Plenty of people have brought it up to the point that I really cannot see how you missed it.

But for the sake of argument lets play your game for a moment. Lets do a quick scan for mentions of piracy as being something people would do instead of this convoluted method of returns:
Previous thread - Around 15 mentions of "pirate" or "piracy" in the first two pages (70 posts).
This thread - Around 15 mentions of "pirate" or "piracy" in the first two pages (70 posts).

This is not me saying this alone. Its been brought up repeatedly by lots of people. If someone wants to play a game for free they're just going to go download it from a pirate website. I can't say I approve, but that's just the way things are; some people want games for free even when they could legitimately buy them. But steam refunds is just a bad way to do it.

No, I am not being disingenuous and I would prefer if you didn't assume that I was.

You don't have to like my opinion but I would ask that you at least not insult it. I haven't insulted yours. Again, I am saying IF it happens. IF even one person does it that person should be punished. I will say it again I am not against the refunds and I agree with them. I just think that IF someone does abuse the refund system for any reason that person should be punished. I have never once said in this thread that I am against the refunds. All I am against are people abusing the system. Again, I am not being disingenuous nor am I playing a game so please don't assume that I am.

I never missed those comments. Those comments don't interest me because they are not what I am arguing against. I am against abuse of the system in general. If you're going put words in my mouth and incorrectly assume things about me I don't see the point in carrying on a discussion with you about this.

 

[Strazdas]

2) Steam trading card abuse.
Buy a game?earn 3+ trading cards, abuse the marketplace system with your free money. When you consider the steps people will go to abuse the economy of an MMO then you can instantly see the problems here. I guess we?re to just assume Steam will ?police? this? Good luck. MMO?s has failed to do so for decades now.

People get far more out of MMO economy changes, though. this will get you what, 10 cents from cards noone wants? Also some MMOs instead of trying to institute broken economy models allowed players to control the pricing, which turned out into a massive trading market feature (for example Eve Online) instead.

there have actually been multiple reports of people returning games bought a long long time ago. basickly even if a game does no fit the bill (less than 2 hours and 2 weeks) you can still try to refund it and you might be able to.

Currently you can return games that you purchased before 6 months provided you didnt play them. i guess this is a sort of opening feature that will go away eventually. its making up for not being able to refund earlier.

We're talking about the same gamers that pay premium $60 on launch day for a game that'll be $50 or so in about a month. The ones that basically pre-order games sight unseen for special exclussive skins?. Not idiots?

Look if gamers weren't idiots you wouldn't pay more than $40 for a game.

Games has costed 60 dollars on launch for decades now. it has become the norm, premium or not. Preorders are actually on a severe decline https://archive.is/Uh6mI

 

[Joos]

The single, best piece of consumer protection that steam has released to date, and you manage to find a couple of insignificant crap-pushing wingers to write about?

This feature will pretty much fix the much maligned green light process. When unity crammers can't sell their filth without customers instantly demanding their cash back, they will either start making better games or disappear. Both are great solutions.

If you want to make games that last for less than two hours, well, I think they belong on the App Store or google play.

 

[BoogieManFL]

Unfortunate, but I guess developers will have to try and make more than an hour or two of content. Not much else you can do.

Blame it on the developers that try to sell garbage, because that's why this system is needed.


I wonder how they track extra sales due to people having less fear of wasting their money now...

 

[runic knight]

2) Steam trading card abuse.
Buy a game?earn 3+ trading cards, abuse the marketplace system with your free money. When you consider the steps people will go to abuse the economy of an MMO then you can instantly see the problems here. I guess we?re to just assume Steam will ?police? this? Good luck. MMO?s has failed to do so for decades now.

People get far more out of MMO economy changes, though. this will get you what, 10 cents from cards noone wants? Also some MMOs instead of trying to institute broken economy models allowed players to control the pricing, which turned out into a massive trading market feature (for example Eve Online) instead.

Don't forget the trading card system itself was designed to give steam and devs more money anyways. You always get only half a set, forcing you to trade or buy, or sell them off. Selling either way gets devs like 2% of the sale, so even if people refunded the game after the cards, the devs would still make money.

Also, 5 second fix, simply have it so you can only earn cards after refund period ends. Problem that really wasn't one anyways solved.

Also, worth noting for hilarity sake, saw a tweet from a dev saying they would just make their game have a 2 hour cutscene before gameplay. Got to laugh at someone who thinks a cheap indie game someone buys to see how it goes will sit through a 2 hour intro cut scene in the first place. I'd better after the first 10 minutes, they'll just turn the damn thing off unless it is actually quality.

But if you are going to put that much effort and quality into a 2 hour game cutscene solely to waste people's time to avoid refunds for how shit the game itself is, why the hell not just make a movie?

 

[MonsterCrit]

We're talking about the same gamers that pay premium $60 on launch day for a game that'll be $50 or so in about a month. The ones that basically pre-order games sight unseen for special exclussive skins?. Not idiots?

Look if gamers weren't idiots you wouldn't pay more than $40 for a game.

Games has costed 60 dollars on launch for decades now. it has become the norm, premium or not. Preorders are actually on a severe decline https://archive.is/Uh6mI

The 'Norm' and not many have the sense to ask the question 'why'. If the majority of gamers had the sense to question the why of it. They'd never sell games for more than $40. Why is $60 the norm because the average gamer has apparently accepted it as the noirm. If that changed gamers would pay less but they do not.

 

[Lightspeaker]

No, I am not being disingenuous and I would prefer if you didn't assume that I was.

This:

Also, this thread is 8 pages long and will soon have 248 posts. 4 posts is a drop in the bucket.

Is being disingenuous. Because I'm assuming you've actually read this thread, which happens to be full of posts commenting on "why would they not just pirate?", which means you're willfully ignoring those comments in favour of poking at the fact that I, personally, have only discussed it four times. So if you're not being disingenuous then you just outright haven't read the thread.

You don't have to like my opinion but I would ask that you at least not insult it. I haven't insulted yours. Again, I am saying IF it happens. IF even one person does it that person should be punished. I will say it again I am not against the refunds and I agree with them. I just think that IF someone does abuse the refund system for any reason that person should be punished. I have never once said in this thread that I am against the refunds. All I am against are people abusing the system.

Its already been stated that anyone abusing the system is going to have their ability to request refunds revoked so...again, what's your endgame? To demand that Valve do something they already stated they're going to do?

I never missed those comments. Those comments don't interest me because they are not what I am arguing against. I am against abuse of the system in general. If you're going put words in my mouth and incorrectly assume things about me I don't see the point in carrying on a discussion with you about this.

I implied you missed those comments because YOU DIRECTLY ATTACKED ME ABOUT THEM. So either you missed them OR you are deliberate ignoring them specifically to attack me on a rather petty point.

This is absurd, I'm done. No significant numbers of people are going to abuse the damn system because its a pointless endeavour no matter what your end goal is from doing so. Devs claiming that people will are just scare-mongering. Have a nice day.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

So, if the small dev dont release a playable game then they deserve to lose sales. Just because they are small doesnt mean they are automatically allowed to release shitty games. Atleast this refund policy will counter all the crap on green light. It will also allow people people a chance to try out new games that they may not of wanted to risk spending money on. So i see this refund rule as a win win for both gamers and for developers that release quality products.

 

[Vlado]

Good to see TB was already linked. In short, the narrative is bogus - only a handful of indie devs are against refunds, the vast majority approve or at least think it's a great idea that at most will have to be tweaked a little bit.

 

[Strazdas]

We're talking about the same gamers that pay premium $60 on launch day for a game that'll be $50 or so in about a month. The ones that basically pre-order games sight unseen for special exclussive skins?. Not idiots?

Look if gamers weren't idiots you wouldn't pay more than $40 for a game.

Games has costed 60 dollars on launch for decades now. it has become the norm, premium or not. Preorders are actually on a severe decline https://archive.is/Uh6mI

The 'Norm' and not many have the sense to ask the question 'why'. If the majority of gamers had the sense to question the why of it. They'd never sell games for more than $40. Why is $60 the norm because the average gamer has apparently accepted it as the noirm. If that changed gamers would pay less but they do not.

Actually, plenty of people question it. A lot of people even form communities about waiting for the price drop. It is no secret that "Sales" are the most profitable periods of game outside of launch week. The 60 dollar became the norm because at one point it was an equalibrium of how much people were willing to pay for a new game, the price stuck and others are afraid to change it now. not everyone though, some do sell their games for less. Inflation also helps keep the price at bay somewhat as people are getting more disposable income in terms of numeric value. The 60 dollar became so entrenched that every time a game tries to ask for more (like those 70 dollar games recently) people go apeshit about.

 

[cainejw]

Smaller Devs Abused By Steam's "No Questions Asked" Refund Policy

So, I would love to debunk this news story as well. I'll do it in two websites. Are you ready? Note that these numbers may not be exact and do have a margin for error.

https://steamdb.info/app/317510/graphs/

Scroll down to the final graph. It reads Owners and Total Players.

June 7th: 26,317 owners, 17,987 players, 1,842 players in the last two weeks
June 8th: 26,443 owners, 18,036 players, 1,891 players in the last two weeks
June 9th: 26,058 owners, 16,947 players, 1,764 players in the last two weeks
June 10t: 26,397 owners, 16,772 players, 1,799 players in the last two weeks

Looking over the longer period (http://steamspy.com/app/317510)
5/10/15: 22,000 owners
5/20/15: 30,299
5/25/15: 26,213
6/02/15: 28,837
6/03/15: 26,738
6/09/15: 26,541

So it would appear that they had a sale and ownership dropped off then prior to this return ability. It picked back up after the sale on the last day and then dropped off when returns could happen. However, they are almost back to pre-return policy levels which would signify that the return policy only hurt them temporarily -- not massively.

So the question now is...why is this developer so shocked and appalled that their game was returned? And why did they state their sales are abysmal when, in actuality, they're on an upward tick that mirrors the tick they experienced in 5/20/2015 when their ownership went up ~6,000?

Maybe that's a good question for an investigative journalist to ask Qwiboo, hm?

 

[Upbeat Zombie]

I think Steam's refund policy is a great addition. Sure there is a chance for abuse, but i think the benefits of being able to refund the huge amounts of shovelware now on steam is entirely a positive thing. The games seemingly most at risk are ios, flash, and just plain ol bad games. Which i really cant pretend i would miss if they were off steam.

 

[Bat Vader]

No, I am not being disingenuous and I would prefer if you didn't assume that I was.

This:

Also, this thread is 8 pages long and will soon have 248 posts. 4 posts is a drop in the bucket.

Is being disingenuous. Because I'm assuming you've actually read this thread, which happens to be full of posts commenting on "why would they not just pirate?", which means you're willfully ignoring those comments in favour of poking at the fact that I, personally, have only discussed it four times. So if you're not being disingenuous then you just outright haven't read the thread.

You don't have to like my opinion but I would ask that you at least not insult it. I haven't insulted yours. Again, I am saying IF it happens. IF even one person does it that person should be punished. I will say it again I am not against the refunds and I agree with them. I just think that IF someone does abuse the refund system for any reason that person should be punished. I have never once said in this thread that I am against the refunds. All I am against are people abusing the system.

Its already been stated that anyone abusing the system is going to have their ability to request refunds revoked so...again, what's your endgame? To demand that Valve do something they already stated they're going to do?

I never missed those comments. Those comments don't interest me because they are not what I am arguing against. I am against abuse of the system in general. If you're going put words in my mouth and incorrectly assume things about me I don't see the point in carrying on a discussion with you about this.

I implied you missed those comments because YOU DIRECTLY ATTACKED ME ABOUT THEM. So either you missed them OR you are deliberate ignoring them specifically to attack me on a rather petty point.

This is absurd, I'm done. No significant numbers of people are going to abuse the damn system because its a pointless endeavour no matter what your end goal is from doing so. Devs claiming that people will are just scare-mongering. Have a nice day.

Wrong again. You said your posts and I said I never saw your posts. I'm not ignoring the other posts I was just commenting on yours. How exactly did I attack you? I never once insulted you. If anything you're the one attacking me for calling me disingenuous and assuming incorrect things about me.

Here I am saying I don't want the system abused at all and it feels like you are arguing against it. If we both want the same thing why are we arguing?

 

[ChaoGuy2006]

I think Steam's refund policy is a great addition. Sure there is a chance for abuse, but i think the benefits of being able to refund the huge amounts of shovelware now on steam is entirely a positive thing. The games seemingly most at risk are ios, flash, and just plain ol bad games. Which i really cant pretend i would miss if they were off steam.

Seconded. Don't get me wrong, there are room for games under 5-hours. Just... within a reasonable price range. I'm not gonna fight for a few bucks back if a short game was good.

Now 20 bucks for a broken game that I can finish in a weekend? "Waiter, this game isn't done yet!"