"Snooty" Shooter Critics Anger Rage Dev

[Logan Westbrook]

"Snooty" Shooter Critics Anger Rage Dev

The man who helped create some of the most influential shooters ever made says that popularity isn't a bad thing.

Rage [http://www.amazon.com/Rage-Xbox-360/dp/B00354NAYG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1311077582&sr=8-1] developer and id software co-founder John Carmack is tired of first person shooters coming under fire for not being innovative or creative enough. He says that a developer's job is not to make things that people have never seen before; it's to make something that they enjoy.

Carmack said that some people - particularly indie devs with an "auteur" perspective - seemed to think that popular meant bad. He said that he really didn't like that "snooty attitude," and that while he was happy that Rage was different from the other shooters on the market, there was nothing wrong with games like Call of Duty. "That's still a proven formula that people like, and it's a mistake to [discount that]. As long as people are buying it, it means they're enjoying it," he said. "If they buy the next Call of Duty, it's because they loved the last one and they want more of it."

While it's a very different series from any of id's games, Call of Duty's success has actually made Carmack rather happy. "Call of Duty, which is also a 60 fps game, which would validate some of my [thinking]," he said. "That was one of our big arguments internally as we were stressing over [Rage's frame rate], like, 'Y'know, I think some of the success of Call of Duty is because of how good it feels.'" On a larger scale, he said that he was happy that FPS games - a genre that id helped push into the limelight with games like Doom and Quake - were so popular, as he had thought that third person shooters would wear the action crown.

The kind of snobbery that Carmack describes isn't limited just to videogames; you'll find the same kind of people in the worlds of music, film, books, and every other medium. While there's definitely a discussion to be had about how much creativity it is reasonable to expect from triple A games, Carmack's point about popularity not being an intrinsically bad thing has a lot of merit. Hopefully, no one is letting videogame hipsters ruin their fun.

Rage comes out for PC, PS3, and Xbox 360 on October 4th.

Source: Industry Gamers [http://www.industrygamers.com/news/doom-creator-fires-back-at-devs-with-snooty-attitude/]






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[Woodsey]

"If they buy the next Call of Duty, it's because they loved the last one and they want more of it."

Not so sure about that.

The amount of times I've seen: "MW2 totally sucked, BlOps is gonna rulez! Whoop Treyarch!", and now: "BlOps sucked, MW3 gonna stick it to da bitches!" is... well, a lot of times. I think a lot of people play them just because their mates do.

And perhaps the snobbery exists somewhat because some of us don't like CoD, and don't want its influence in every other bloody game released (which is happening a lot in some form or another)?

Still, I get his point, but "popular = good" is just as irritating as "popular = bad" to me.

Imagine what games would be like now if people had invested in the Deus Ex school of design, and not the "we're not even gonna let you open a fucking door" one. Sigh.

 

[RelexCryo]

John Carmack rules. I love this article. Sums up my viewpoints on the "innovation " issue perfectly.

 

[octafish]

I like id's old stuff better than their new stuff.

 

[Lawlhat]

What Carmack just said makes so much sense that it hurts my head.

 

[General_Knowledge]

By this idiots logic, the Transformers movies are really bloody good.

Just seems like an easy way to dismiss negative feedback to me.

 

[Eleuthera]

By this idiots logic, the Transformers movies are really bloody good.

Just seems like an easy way to dismiss negative feedback to me.

This.

Just because something is popular doesn't make it bad, but it definitely also doesn't make it good.

 

[w9496]

"If they buy the next Call of Duty, it's because they loved the last one and they want more of it."

Not so sure about that.

The amount of times I've seen: "MW2 totally sucked, BlOps is gonna rulez! Whoop Treyarch!", and now: "BlOps sucked, MW3 gonna stick it to da bitches!" is... well, a lot of times.

And perhaps the snobbery exists somewhat because some of us don't like CoD, and don't want its influence in every other bloody game released (which is happening a lot in some form or another)?

Still, I get his point, but "popular = good" is just as irritating as "popular = bad" to me.

Imagine what games would be like now if people had invested in the Deus Ex school of design, and not the "we're not even gonna let you open a fucking door" one. Sigh.

People may have thought that th recent COD games were bad,but if they keep buying it, that invalidates what they are saying, so they probably don't think it sucks.

By this idiots logic, the Transformers movies are really bloody good.

Just seems like an easy way to dismiss negative feedback to me.

I'm betting that some people really like the Transformers movies, but that doesn't make them idiots. And did you just call John Carmack an idiot? He practically invented FPS's as we know it.

 

[Woodsey]

"If they buy the next Call of Duty, it's because they loved the last one and they want more of it."

Not so sure about that.

The amount of times I've seen: "MW2 totally sucked, BlOps is gonna rulez! Whoop Treyarch!", and now: "BlOps sucked, MW3 gonna stick it to da bitches!" is... well, a lot of times.

And perhaps the snobbery exists somewhat because some of us don't like CoD, and don't want its influence in every other bloody game released (which is happening a lot in some form or another)?

Still, I get his point, but "popular = good" is just as irritating as "popular = bad" to me.

Imagine what games would be like now if people had invested in the Deus Ex school of design, and not the "we're not even gonna let you open a fucking door" one. Sigh.

People may have thought that th recent COD games were bad,but if they keep buying it, that invalidates what they are saying, so they probably don't think it sucks.

Or, as I've said, they're just sticking with it because their mates do, and no one's piped up or bothered looking at an alternative.

but that doesn't make them idiots.

Probably helps to be a picnic short of a few sandwiches though.

 

[Craazhy]

Carmack said that some people - particularly indie devs with an "auteur" perspective - seemed to think that popular meant bad. He said that he really didn't like that "snooty attitude," and that while he was happy that Rage was different from the other shooters on the market, there was nothing wrong with games like Call of Duty. "That's still a proven formula that people like, and it's a mistake to [discount that]. As long as people are buying it, it means they're enjoying it," he said. "If they buy the next Call of Duty, it's because they loved the last one and they want more of it."

Oh, excuse me Mr. Carmack. I had not realized my behavior was unbecoming, I merely believed that I was one of the millions filling your paychecks and therefore had the ground to criticize your products when they didn't meet my expectations.

Don't worry, I won't make that mistake again.

 

[Arkynomicon]

By this idiots logic, the Transformers movies are really bloody good.

Just seems like an easy way to dismiss negative feedback to me.

Comparing movie and videogames is also pretty damn stupid because they are two very different mediums. The way I understood it that most people play videogames because they are mindless fun and not because they are deep or anything. Most people that enjoy the Transformer movies probably want some mindless fun as well in between having a life which is serious business.

Don't be so quick to condemn people just because they want to catch a break once in a while.

 

[teebeeohh]

where does it say that he thinks popular means good? he just says it doesn't mean bad, which is right. basically all he says is that developers will make games that sell and people should just stop bitching about it.

 

[Numachuka]

By this idiots logic, the Transformers movies are really bloody good.

Just seems like an easy way to dismiss negative feedback to me.

I'm betting that some people really like the Transformers movies, but that doesn't make them idiots. And did you just call John Carmack an idiot? He practically invented FPS's as we know it.

...and? Doesn't mean he can't say something stupid now.

 

[RelexCryo]

A lot of people play COD because they pass the time and are at least functional, and many others (actually about 70% of gamers I know) only ever play COD multiplayer and never bother looking into an alternative, or even other games at all.

Anyway, I'm incredibly startled to find that there are developers making decisions about their games based around the number of frames per second. What the fuck? if it's playable, then it's fine. Right?

At least it's nice to see you think so as well, Carmack.

John Carmack rules. I love this article. Sums up my viewpoints on the "innovation " issue perfectly.

What, "we shouldn't have any because people will buy it anyway"?

By this idiots logic, the Transformers movies are really bloody good.

Just seems like an easy way to dismiss negative feedback to me.

Comparing movie and videogames is also pretty damn stupid because they are two very different mediums. The way I understood it that most people play videogames because they are mindless fun and not because they are deep or anything. Most people that enjoy the Transformer movies probably want some mindless fun as well in between having a life which is serious business.

Don't be so quick to condemn people just because they want to catch a break once in a while.

Correct me if I'm misinterpreting you[footnote]No, really, don't wanna come off as snooty here. =][/footnote] but "People enjoy it anyway" is by no means a reason to make something when you could make something even better.

He never said that innovation was pointless or bad. Simply that it was less important than making something fun. And while the industry as a whole might need occasional innovation, expecting every game to have significant innovation is not realistic.

 

[Turigamot]

It seems quite a few of you are misconstruing what he actually said.

He didn't say all popular games are good games. He said popular games aren't necessarily bad games. There is not any all encompassing popular is good statement coming from him.

He is simply being anti-hipster. Which I appreciate.

Also, he never stated innovation was a bad thing. However, turning your nose up at games that stick to a proven formula, is. There is room for both.

 

[Logan Westbrook]

By this idiots logic, the Transformers movies are really bloody good.

Not really, he never says that bad games should get a free pass. What's he's sick of is people dismissing shooters just because they're shooters.

 

[General_Knowledge]

By this idiots logic, the Transformers movies are really bloody good.

Just seems like an easy way to dismiss negative feedback to me.

Comparing movie and videogames is also pretty damn stupid because they are two very different mediums.

Carmacks argument here is that CoD is popular and therefore good. That can easily be applied to movies. The difference between the two mediums is irrelevant here. It's a basic logical fallacy called, argumentum ad populum. Besides, I didn't actually compare any movie to any game, if you read my post. Carmacks comment can easily be applied to literally anything and still make sense, not just video games.

The way I understood it that most people play videogames because they are mindless fun and not because they are deep or anything.

Not me, at least not all the time. Nothing wrong with mindless fun either, but there are also plenty of games out there that offer a much more deep experience. I never said mindless fun was bad.

Don't be so quick to condemn people just because they want to catch a break once in a while.

I didn't condemn anyone. I said Carmack was an idiot. Anyone that could make the claim that something is good because a lot of people like it, is a complete twit.

If all you want is mindless fun, ok, we have nothing to say to each other really. I just like to expect a bit of effort from people who make a living doing something - Be it games or movies etc - instead of just accepting the same old, same old.

By this idiots logic, the Transformers movies are really bloody good.

Not really, he never says that bad games should get a free pass. What's he's sick of is people dismissing shooters just because they're shooters.

I draw your attention to the following:

"That's still a proven formula that people like, and it's a mistake to [discount that]. As long as people are buying it, it means they're enjoying it," he said. "If they buy the next Call of Duty, it's because they loved the last one and they want more of it."

Replace Call of Duty with Transformers in that quote.