hmmm... seems like a rather good argument for lazy game design, but there's truth in it. I'll be damned if most CoD hate doesn't just come from it being insanely popular.
"Snooty" Shooter Critics Anger Rage Dev
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Thing is that 60 frames per second also equals a minimum of 60 "game loops" per second, which means that all sorts of calculations (including those from controller input) can be made more quickly and lead to a smoother and more responsive experience.InterAirplay said:
He is right, nearly every new game i've played has suffered from trying to innovate in some way. the only game in which they almost change nothing (that i can think about) to the engine or gameplay was..... Fallout New Vegas. sure the thing was as buggy as fuck, it was still as fun if not more then Fallout 3. but we learn a couple of lessons from this. A) never trust Obsidian with any IP as they won't change a single thing and they'll be buggy as fuck (KOTOR II was good and i enjoyed it.) especially if it's a sequel and B) While the need for something new in games is needed once in a while it is not a bad thing to go back to pure mindless fun in between heavy experiances. like Amnesia the dark descent etc. basically its what the id fella said. but with more analogies.
I was with him right up until the 60 fps thing. Then I sighed, shook my head and realized I couldn't take anything he said seriously for that entire thing.
I can't imagine him saying that in anything but an incredibly sarcastic voice, because that isn't a feature you guys. That's an admittance that what is being made isn't that great, so they have to resort to anything that sounds like it might be positive.
I can't imagine him saying that in anything but an incredibly sarcastic voice, because that isn't a feature you guys. That's an admittance that what is being made isn't that great, so they have to resort to anything that sounds like it might be positive.
Funny, really, Alpha Protocol wasn't that bad, just really rough around the edges. Had some really interesting concepts. Shame it couldn't be polished out a bit more/was made by Obsidian.OutrageousEmu said:
And what, we're not already on our way to another catastrophic market crash? It's really only a matter of time, the industry is just saturated.
OT: Carmack is a smart noodle, but I don't think he quite gets it here. We don't need innovation in every other game for sure, but it's just that the FPS has become so stagnant over recent years that it'd be nice to get a breath of fresh air once in a while. I find it funny how he thinks Rage is different from the competitors when it's probably only different in the small details. It's come to the point where any small "innovation", in the FPS genre especially, or just looking slightly different is grounds to say "Look! We're so radical and unique!" when it's hardly a change at all. The whole FPS genre has gotten me jaded and cynical.
We need something to break the mold, to break the monotony. Some people may enjoy Call of Duty, that is totally fine, I am not ragging on them. Some people might really love their military/apocalyptic/post-apocalyptic shooters, go at it, I have no problems with it. Doesn't mean we can't have an innovative one along side those (Bioshock: Infinite? Please? Looks nifty, to say the least...).
Being popular doesn't make something bad. However...Turigamot said:
When something like COD hits the market, it causes a WAVE of copycat/bandwagon clones. This clogs the industry up and discourages other genres or any kind of innovation at all.
And that IS bad.
The hate people spew at COD is visceral for the most part, but the deeper reasoning behind that is not hate towards COD itself(a very good game), but towards the effects its had on the industry (causing the selves to be full up of nothing but lazy shooters).
So popularity CAN and does have adverse effects.
They are good movies.General_Knowledge said:
They're not good artistic movies. They're very good blockbuster movies.
I don't like them, you don't like them. But they did exactly what they were supposed to do. Provide simple entertainment for the masses and lots of cash for the producers. It succeeded. It did good. It's a good movie. Just not the type of movie you're looking for.
"It's like 'Oh, we?re not being creative.' But we're creating value for people - that?s our job! It?s not to do something that nobody?s ever seen before."
If the games industry is lacking innovation (not getting into that here) then it's important not to direct our frustration over the matter at the games or the game developers. Instead, we should direct it at the public who doesn't demand more innovation. To be clear, it is not "snooty" to bemoan a lack of innovation. Far from it, it is our duty as gamers. Just don't attack the games themselves (which are usually popular because they're good) or the game developers (who are doing their job well).
Edit: About my statement "duty as gamers", I admit that may be a silly thing to say. My point stands.
If the games industry is lacking innovation (not getting into that here) then it's important not to direct our frustration over the matter at the games or the game developers. Instead, we should direct it at the public who doesn't demand more innovation. To be clear, it is not "snooty" to bemoan a lack of innovation. Far from it, it is our duty as gamers. Just don't attack the games themselves (which are usually popular because they're good) or the game developers (who are doing their job well).
Edit: About my statement "duty as gamers", I admit that may be a silly thing to say. My point stands.
I think people are interpreting his words wrong. He is just making a point about AAA games not being a Bad thing. He has not said anything against inovation, just that there is a place for the same.
And I for one can relate to it. Some games I have played I just wanted more of the game, to keep the feel with a bit more story to go with. This is where the lack of overall change (with some tweeking) has a place. Other times I feel that the story has been told in full and the expreience was nice and complete so I would prefer something completely new.
He has not shot down either of these two views, merely agreed that both have a valid development point. And as it is the continuation view that get the most stick, it is that that he has chosen to defend in this article (in the same way we favor the things we wish to defend in out own arguments).
Those are my thoughts and I do agree with him. STALKER is a nice example of not putting one's Dick in a pie (points for reference). They tweek but the keep the overall feel the same. While Final Fantasy has done alot (bar the actual story setup) to change their games every time. Ca't say I agree with ll the Final Fantasy games or that I will like all the STALKER games that come out (was too keen on the shift to open world in the lastest STALKER, which is a good second point in favor of keeping things the same), but if each does to the best what they choose to do then surely that will result in the variation needed to keep everyone happy.
(Also worth noting, I play mario games to jump on the heads of things and to use a dinosuar to eat things, that works very very well. Change of scenery and enemies is always nice though, don't need much story to do the jumping and the eating)
And I for one can relate to it. Some games I have played I just wanted more of the game, to keep the feel with a bit more story to go with. This is where the lack of overall change (with some tweeking) has a place. Other times I feel that the story has been told in full and the expreience was nice and complete so I would prefer something completely new.
He has not shot down either of these two views, merely agreed that both have a valid development point. And as it is the continuation view that get the most stick, it is that that he has chosen to defend in this article (in the same way we favor the things we wish to defend in out own arguments).
Those are my thoughts and I do agree with him. STALKER is a nice example of not putting one's Dick in a pie (points for reference). They tweek but the keep the overall feel the same. While Final Fantasy has done alot (bar the actual story setup) to change their games every time. Ca't say I agree with ll the Final Fantasy games or that I will like all the STALKER games that come out (was too keen on the shift to open world in the lastest STALKER, which is a good second point in favor of keeping things the same), but if each does to the best what they choose to do then surely that will result in the variation needed to keep everyone happy.
(Also worth noting, I play mario games to jump on the heads of things and to use a dinosuar to eat things, that works very very well. Change of scenery and enemies is always nice though, don't need much story to do the jumping and the eating)
He's criticizing the critics, before they critique his product. That alone tells me he knows how shitty that product is.
What? He's saying that because something is popular, it doesn't mean it's bad, not that if it's popular it's good.General_Knowledge said:
I find it amusing that you're calling him an idiot based on your misunderstanding of what he said.
Duty as gamers? Our duty as gamers is nothing, because that's silly.WayOutThere said:
No, I was telling you why your example was pointless. Alpha Protocol failed due to incompetent handling, most people haven't bothered trying to attempt anything Deus Ex-y because they find it too intimidating, which is understandable, but its also the reason why CoD won't even let you open doors for yourself. If we wanted a somewhat close comparison, then I'd cite Bethesda with the Fallout and TES games. But yeah, you're right, they fucking bomb in the charts.OutrageousEmu said:
And no, I didn't say that either. I love linear experiences (Half Life 2, Portal 2, The Sands of Time, Mafia, Uncharted 2, etc.). But good ones; ones that don't feel like they've got your dick in a vice, in spite of being linear. And I just wish that people had bothered to follow up on a game design that is far more interesting.
I mean, the medium has more potential than any to do new shit, and yet what we're getting for the most part, in the most popular genre, is fucking B-movies that let you move the cameraman forward.
The problem isn't that CoD is bad the problem is market saturation, everyone is doing the same bloody shooter, not to mention Activision alone is pumping out the same game every year.
They successfully turned CoD it into EA's sports titles.
They successfully turned CoD it into EA's sports titles.
"develop |diˈveləp|
verb ( -veloped , -veloping )
1 grow or cause to grow and become more mature, advanced, or elaborate"
What was that you were saying about the job of developers?
verb ( -veloped , -veloping )
1 grow or cause to grow and become more mature, advanced, or elaborate"
What was that you were saying about the job of developers?
Well I think he is speaking in good spirits and means what he said. I agree popularity shouldn't just be a write off that it has no value. I think making a blatant copy is but that's not that developers fault, He never stated that is always good or always bad but you need to at least give it a chance.
Also on the 60fps thing. He meant that when they wanted to decide what framreate would "feel" best for there game. By looking at 60fps games he noticed it was smoother and felt better. He could of gone with a 30fps which would have been easier and require less work but because of these games he is trying to see how far he can push his game.
All he is saying is you should at least give popular games a chance before writing it off.
Also on the 60fps thing. He meant that when they wanted to decide what framreate would "feel" best for there game. By looking at 60fps games he noticed it was smoother and felt better. He could of gone with a 30fps which would have been easier and require less work but because of these games he is trying to see how far he can push his game.
All he is saying is you should at least give popular games a chance before writing it off.
My Favorite Kansas City Expat speaks the truth!
To Bring up a rotting horse, look at DNF, to many people were expecting it to blow the stack off of FPS games, and instead said " *sigh* I can't believe I used to laugh at this."
when Gear boxes goal was to make you say "*chuckle* I can not Believe I used to laugh at this!"
To Bring up a rotting horse, look at DNF, to many people were expecting it to blow the stack off of FPS games, and instead said " *sigh* I can't believe I used to laugh at this."
when Gear boxes goal was to make you say "*chuckle* I can not Believe I used to laugh at this!"
He said that something is popular because people enjoy it, and there are plenty of people who enjoy the Transformers movies. Now, does that mean they are critically good? Not necessarily, but the films wouldn't be anywhere near as popular if people didn't enjoy them. That's what Carmack is trying to convey-- he doesn't think something has to be innovative to be fun and enjoyable, which he would be right. He thinks game developers should make games that are fun.General_Knowledge said:
Also, did you SERIOUSLY just call Carmack an idiot? Did you SERIOUSLY just call one of the single most influential, famous, important, and brilliant developers in not only FPSs, but in the history of our medium an idiot? Are you 13?
Let me guess: you never actually played Alpha Protocol, and are just one of those people who bash an innovative, intriguing, and wholly compelling game because some asshole "game critic" said so, and you were too lazy to actually play the game and postulate your own opinion? It was rough around the edges, sure, but as soon as you looked past its flaws, you would find a really interesting game that is miles above what we typically get from mainstream gaming.OutrageousEmu said:
Sigh...
To explain what I was getting at, the state of gaming being stagnant (see previous disclaimer) is an unfortunate thing and that working to correct this state of affairs by denouncing it and not buying games that perpetuate it is a good thing. It is not snooty to want better for the medium. Do I think gamers have a "duty" to help progress the medium like this...perhaps that's not fair. So I may take that statement back, my point in that comment still stands though.Ironic Pirate said: