So a black actor is considering role of Johnny Storm and nerdrage has turned racist again.

Sparrow

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Sepko said:
Sparrow said:
My only issue is that if Johnny is black, Susan has to be black too. If that happens, cool. If they try to tie some kind of adoption shit into it or just ignore the brother/sister background... then I'd be pissed.
What's wrong with adoption?
If you're talking in a broad sense, nothing. I'm all for it. Yay adoption.

If you're talking about it in this sense, I'd quite clearly have to say that it's not a part of the character's origin. Being black or white or Asian has no bearing on Johnny Storm. He never makes any point of being pro-white, or racist, or anything that would specify him as a certain ethnicity. However, his relationship with Susan is an extremely important part of his origin. If he were adopted, that would significantly change.
 

Lovely Mixture

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OtherSideofSky said:
Perhaps you are forgetting that Memoirs of a Geisha is an English novel written by a white guy from the USA.
I didn't forget that. I don't see how that makes a difference to my point.


OtherSideofSky said:
It was only later translated into Japanese and published in Japan, and the woman he interviewed to get the basis for the story wasn't very happy about it (a lawsuit was involved). She later wrote her own, considerably different, memoir.
Yes I know that. Again, I don't see how that counters my point


OtherSideofSky said:
The issue with casting mostly Chinese people as Japanese characters in that movie was that, in addition to the long and not terribly positive history between China and Japan, it came off as Hollywood just no knowing any better, rather than a deliberate change like in this case.
....Yeah I didn't say it was EXACTLY the same, I said it was similar.

I'm just saying for all the issues people had with the casting in that case, they didn't focus on a major issue with the actual content of the film. Same thing here, they aren't focusing on how the movie will turn out, they're focused on how it's made.
 

Sepko

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Sparrow said:
If you're talking in a broad sense, nothing. I'm all for it. Yay adoption.

If you're talking about it in this sense, I'd quite clearly have to say that it's not a part of the character's origin. Being black or white or Asian has no bearing on Johnny Storm. He never makes any point of being pro-white, or racist, or anything that would specify him as a certain ethnicity. However, his relationship with Susan is an extremely important part of his origin. If he were adopted, that would significantly change.
Are we implying that this change is somehow going to be bad? That a relationship between adopted siblings is somehow lesser than if they were related? Cuz that's kind of what's being implied here.
 

ninjaRiv

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Sepko said:
ninjaRiv said:
there are plenty of great black characters out there to adapt
Name 3 black superheroes that're well-known to the public outside of comic geekdom that would get a considerable amount of butts in seats who isn't Spawn.

ninjaRiv said:
There's no need to change the characters ethnicity just because... because why?
Because why not? Shake up the formula a bit, having Johnny as a black guy isn't gonna end the universe.

ninjaRiv said:
Because it would give black people a role model? Yes, that's right, black folk you can be white, too!
Implying that Johnny Storm's personality is somehow linked to his whiteness. Also, really? Really? We're doing that here?
Luke Cage, Black Panther, White Tiger, Blade, John Stewart. Two of those are thanks to Ultimate Spider-man who have finally put ethnic characters on a screen without having to change a character's ethnicity altogether. I agree that lots of black characters are not well known enough for a movie but I don't see how that works as an excuse at all. Blade was never that well known yet he got a movie. Also "well known outside of comic geekdom" is a stupid thing to say (not calling you stupid, just the thing you said. You bring up a valid point). Iron man wasn't that well known to the "outside world" and neither was, as mentioned, Blade. or Nick Fury, Jonah Hex, Constantine.

So shake up the formula by making a film about a black superhero. Kind of seems better to me.

I agree, his personality probably wont be changed.

Explain to me how making Johnny black would not send the message that it's better to be lazy and just change an ethnicity, than to work on a black character. Don't you think that sends an odd message? Really?
 

IamLEAM1983

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Private Custard said:
If something's non-canon, how can it be racist to point it out?
I think the real question is if canon matters so much that people are willing to go up in arms about a character's ethnicity being changed.

Riddle me this: Nick Fury is played by David Hasslehoff first - people write it off as cheezy and fairly horrible. Sam Jackson has a go at the same character? Bingo, jackpot - Fury is made so badass for the fans that Marvel goes ahead and retcons Fury into a Black guy. Fans approve.

Yet, they don't seem to approve of this. If anything, this just proves that the comics fandom is fundamentally inconstant. Pull something unexpected and do it surprisingly well, they'll love you for it. Disturb their sacred icons for the purpose of adding a token Black guy to a team? Ooooh, God. The rage, my friends.

This makes me wish most of us comics geeks would grow the fuck up.
 

bat32391

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Father Time said:
Zeldias said:
"OMG shut up, it's fine for Cumberbatch to be Khan even though it was a big deal that Khan wasn't a white guy."
"OMG shut up, it's fine that all the characters in Avatar: The Last Airbender movie are cast as white."
"OMG shut up, it's not realistic for there to be minorities here/it's just normal/deal with it/etc etc."

"OMG WTF, A MINORITY IS GONNA BE CAST AS A CHARACTER THAT WAS ORIGINALLY WHITE? HOW DARE YOU!?"

I love the smell of racist, white supremacist hypocrisy in the morning.
I think it's coming from your straw man.
I keep seeing people mentioning this, what the hell is a straw man?
 

Sparrow

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Sepko said:
Sparrow said:
If you're talking in a broad sense, nothing. I'm all for it. Yay adoption.

If you're talking about it in this sense, I'd quite clearly have to say that it's not a part of the character's origin. Being black or white or Asian has no bearing on Johnny Storm. He never makes any point of being pro-white, or racist, or anything that would specify him as a certain ethnicity. However, his relationship with Susan is an extremely important part of his origin. If he were adopted, that would significantly change.
Are we implying that this change is somehow going to be bad? That a relationship between adopted siblings is somehow lesser than if they were related? Cuz that's kind of what's being implied here.
No, of course not. That is ridiculous. I'm not some kind of anti-adoption jackwad. As I said, I'm all for adoption.

It's no different from if Johnny was adopted in the comics, but in the film they wanted to make them blood related. I'd be just as apposed to that as I am to this. His relationship with Sue is a defining part of his background. His ethnicity is not. Hence my issue with one and not the other.

I also do not appreciate this argument mongering mentality. I am not against adoption, I do not consider it "lesser". Do not put words into my mouth and make me look like an asshole.
 

Sepko

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ninjaRiv said:
Luke Cage, Black Panther, White Tiger, Blade, John Stewart. Two of those are thanks to Ultimate Spider-man who have finally put ethnic characters on a screen without having to change a character's ethnicity altogether. I agree that lots of black characters are not well known enough for a movie but I don't see how that works as an excuse at all. Blade was never that well known yet he got a movie. Also "well known outside of comic geekdom" is a stupid thing to say (not calling you stupid, just the thing you said. You bring up a valid point). Iron man wasn't that well known to the "outside world" and neither was, as mentioned, Blade. or Nick Fury, Jonah Hex, Constantine.
From a movie business standpoint you're going to have to go with brand recognition, Blade was a serious risk that paid off because it was about a black guy chopping vampires with swords, who didn't want to see that? Iron Man had a cartoon series that I used to love to watch, so there was some exposure there. Nick Fury doesn't have his own movie yet (unless we're counting the Hoff one), Jonah Hex flopped and Constantine just barely survived but won't be getting a sequel. The thing with not-well-known properties is that, unless those black superhero characters have some sort of incredibly and easily sellable gimmick/actor/director, it's going to be tough, which is something not a lot of studios like to count on.

ninjaRiv said:
Explain to me how making Johnny black would not send the message that it's better to be lazy and just change an ethnicity, than to work on a black character. Don't you think that sends an odd message? Really?
I wouldn't call it lazy, admittedly it probably takes a little bit less creativity to just update a character than to make a completely new one. But like I said before, new characters aren't going to sell as well.
 

Xan Krieger

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I don't think it's racist to want the actor to look like the character they're portraying. It's like when they were gonna have a black guy play Thor, a white norse god. It wasn't racist to want the actor to look the part, even if they have to use a computer to make their skin look right before releasing the movie.
 

Sepko

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Sparrow said:
Sepko said:
Sparrow said:
If you're talking in a broad sense, nothing. I'm all for it. Yay adoption.

If you're talking about it in this sense, I'd quite clearly have to say that it's not a part of the character's origin. Being black or white or Asian has no bearing on Johnny Storm. He never makes any point of being pro-white, or racist, or anything that would specify him as a certain ethnicity. However, his relationship with Susan is an extremely important part of his origin. If he were adopted, that would significantly change.
Are we implying that this change is somehow going to be bad? That a relationship between adopted siblings is somehow lesser than if they were related? Cuz that's kind of what's being implied here.
No, of course not. That is ridiculous. I'm not some kind of anti-adoption jackwad. As I said, I'm all for adoption.

It's no different from if Johnny was adopted in the comics, but in the film they wanted to make them blood related. I'd be just as apposed to that as I am to this. His relationship with Sue is a defining part of his background. His ethnicity is not. Hence my issue with one and not the other.

I also do not appreciate this argument mongering mentality. I am not against adoption, I do not consider it "lesser". Do not put words into my mouth and make me look like an asshole.
Apologies, I'm just reading what's given to me.
So, now I'm confused. Is it going to be a problem if they were blood relatives but are in a multi-racial family, and this is somehow going to effect their relationship as siblings? Or am I missing something?
 

ninjaRiv

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Sepko said:
ninjaRiv said:
Luke Cage, Black Panther, White Tiger, Blade, John Stewart. Two of those are thanks to Ultimate Spider-man who have finally put ethnic characters on a screen without having to change a character's ethnicity altogether. I agree that lots of black characters are not well known enough for a movie but I don't see how that works as an excuse at all. Blade was never that well known yet he got a movie. Also "well known outside of comic geekdom" is a stupid thing to say (not calling you stupid, just the thing you said. You bring up a valid point). Iron man wasn't that well known to the "outside world" and neither was, as mentioned, Blade. or Nick Fury, Jonah Hex, Constantine.
From a movie business standpoint you're going to have to go with brand recognition, Blade was a serious risk that paid off because it was about a black guy chopping vampires with swords, who didn't want to see that? Iron Man had a cartoon series that I used to love to watch, so there was some exposure there. Nick Fury doesn't have his own movie yet (unless we're counting the Hoff one), Jonah Hex flopped and Constantine just barely survived but won't be getting a sequel. The thing with not-well-known properties is that, unless those black superhero characters have some sort of incredibly and easily sellable gimmick/actor/director, it's going to be tough, which is something not a lot of studios like to count on.

ninjaRiv said:
Explain to me how making Johnny black would not send the message that it's better to be lazy and just change an ethnicity, than to work on a black character. Don't you think that sends an odd message? Really?
I wouldn't call it lazy, admittedly it probably takes a little bit less creativity to just update a character than to make a completely new one. But like I said before, new characters aren't going to sell as well.
Well, yeah but what about the Ultimate Spider-man example? White Tiger, power Man and Nova (who I forgot to mention) are surely great examples of a place to start brining these characters into the light. Now Power Man has more fans who would pay to see the movie that's always rumoured. This, I think, is the better way to go about brining ethnic characters tot he big screen. Same with Static Shock, actually. That was huge and for good reason. If this comic book movie obsession Hollywood has right now was about back then, a Static Shock movie would exist, I think.

Yeah, they didn't do so well in the box office but that's not stopping Hollywood and TV execs from trying other properties. Chew, for example (although, it's a no go), pretty sure Saga has been optioned for a film (a book with a black protagonist, actually) Sixth Gun (I've never even read that) Runaways and more have been optioned are on the way. Plus, Constantine is coming back in the Justice Leage Dark movie, as the main character. Providing it gets done.

I'd actually like to retract my "You can be white, too" statement as I think that was generalising too much. But I still think it's a bad message to send out to anyone, that characters that people love can just be changed for no reason. Yeah, I know Fury was changed but I think that's different. I could explain why I think it's different but I suck at explaining things and would come off as stupid. I'll try anyway: The Ultimate Universe is totally different from the regular one (or it used to be) as everybody knows. Fury was intentionally based on Sammy L J (possibly due to Millar's tendency to base his stories on "what if" ideas. "What if Batman was bad, what if superheroes were real, what if Fury was black" etc). So, marketing agreed that this, plus Sammy L J's almost legendary status with movie fans, would be a great idea (actually, I wonder if Millar was intentionally trying to get the attention of movie people).
 

Calibanbutcher

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I know I am late, but this is too good an opportunity for a bad joke to simply let it slip by.

I want them to make Johnny Storm black, then, after the "Human Torch" reveal, have him flame off and be approached by a reporter:
Reporter: "I always thought you were white"
Storm: "Well, you ever seen anything burn man? *Cue sunglasses* Everything turns black, doesn't it?".


YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
 

Eliwood10

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As I'm reading through this thread, I've been thinking about other Marvel heroes and thinking about how they'd work as a different race.

Black Tony Stark? I could see that working. Asian Peter Parker? That's not too much of a leap. A Black Daredevil would be cool, and I could see a Mexican Johnny Blaze.

Even within the Fantastic Four, a black Reed Richards would work (especially if played by Avery Brooks. How cool would that be?), and a Black Ben Grimm would work too (just keep the accent, please).

But Johnny Storm? No. I can't see it. His race is part of his character to me. He's a white, blond-haired, blue-eyed prettyboy. Anything else feels like a betrayal of the character.
 

game-lover

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Okay... first off, I'm black. So is my brother who I chatted to about this.

This being said, we both believe this makes absolutely no sense.

In order for this to work, they'd have to change his and his sister's background.

And then, this tiny insignificant change turns into many little changes. Combined into something maybe not so little.

Sue would have to be black too. Have to be. They're blood siblings. Not just that, but she's the older sibling. His older sister. That's been established so it'd have to start with her.

Or if not black then they'd have to be half siblings to explain the difference. If not that, then I guess adoption. But then that part would take away the particularity of Sue and Johnny being related by blood. Another seemingly insignificant change which isn't really all that insignificant if you account for other little elements. Ones that all of us might not even think about but are there nonetheless.

But mostly, I think it's pointless. And why in the world do people call themselves wanting to adapt something to another medium but not keep the fucking basics there?
 

thiosk

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Just another example of Hollywood black washing. What's next, an asian Kung-fu star?