So a black actor is considering role of Johnny Storm and nerdrage has turned racist again.

[Eliwood10]

As I'm reading through this thread, I've been thinking about other Marvel heroes and thinking about how they'd work as a different race.

Black Tony Stark? I could see that working. Asian Peter Parker? That's not too much of a leap. A Black Daredevil would be cool, and I could see a Mexican Johnny Blaze.

Even within the Fantastic Four, a black Reed Richards would work (especially if played by Avery Brooks. How cool would that be?), and a Black Ben Grimm would work too (just keep the accent, please).

But Johnny Storm? No. I can't see it. His race is part of his character to me. He's a white, blond-haired, blue-eyed prettyboy. Anything else feels like a betrayal of the character.

 

[game-lover]

Okay... first off, I'm black. So is my brother who I chatted to about this.

This being said, we both believe this makes absolutely no sense.

In order for this to work, they'd have to change his and his sister's background.

And then, this tiny insignificant change turns into many little changes. Combined into something maybe not so little.

Sue would have to be black too. Have to be. They're blood siblings. Not just that, but she's the older sibling. His older sister. That's been established so it'd have to start with her.

Or if not black then they'd have to be half siblings to explain the difference. If not that, then I guess adoption. But then that part would take away the particularity of Sue and Johnny being related by blood. Another seemingly insignificant change which isn't really all that insignificant if you account for other little elements. Ones that all of us might not even think about but are there nonetheless.

But mostly, I think it's pointless. And why in the world do people call themselves wanting to adapt something to another medium but not keep the fucking basics there?

 

[thiosk]

Just another example of Hollywood black washing. What's next, an asian Kung-fu star?

 

[ItsNotRudy]

Why should Sue Storm have to be black, too? There's such a thing as a "throwback" child.

But if that's not part of the original character's story then it's a no go. I'd say don't cast a black guy to play him either way. That's not what the character is or looks like.

 

[DRTJR]

Well if Johnny Storm is black would that not necessitate Susan Storm being black as well? Personally I would have gone with Reed Richards to change his race but that's me.

 

[Ihateregistering1]

Frankly, I could really care less whether Johnny Storm is black, hispanic, asian, white, or they make him and Sue Siamese twins.

That being said, I think there's a flip-side to this: If people are going to say "ethnicity isn't important, all that matters is who can play the character better" then you can't complain if they reboot or make a movie and have a white guy or gal (or whichever ethnicity) play Luke Cage, Blade, Spawn, Storm, Frenzy, etc.

 

[OtherSideofSky]

I am not opposed to the idea of casting a black actor in this role, as long as his sister is cast so that they still look alike

I'd be okay with this, provided his sister is also played by a black actress, otherwise that would raise way too many questions...

I mean race doesn't really play any real role in their characters, but their relationship as brother and sister does, so THAT needs to remain the same and so I'd be annoyed by the casting choice ONLY if Susan Storm remained white.

Ok seriously this is this fifth time this has been brought up, has no one thought up the idea of adoption or stepfamilies? They don't NEED to be biologically related, family relationships are not bound by blood.

No offense meant to either of you sirs.

No offence to you either, but something like adoption would represent a far more significant change to the characters' history than casting black actors. It would require time in the film to explain, and it would be totally unnecessary. Also, I would actually be kind of annoyed if they did this and then didn't have the guts to go all the way with it. Jumping through hoops to keep the female lead and love interest white would really rub me the wrong way in a way that something like this doesn't. It would make the whole thing feel like a corporate gimmick.

 

[OtherSideofSky]

Perhaps you are forgetting that Memoirs of a Geisha is an English novel written by a white guy from the USA.

I didn't forget that. I don't see how that makes a difference to my point.

It was only later translated into Japanese and published in Japan, and the woman he interviewed to get the basis for the story wasn't very happy about it (a lawsuit was involved). She later wrote her own, considerably different, memoir.

Yes I know that. Again, I don't see how that counters my point

The issue with casting mostly Chinese people as Japanese characters in that movie was that, in addition to the long and not terribly positive history between China and Japan, it came off as Hollywood just no knowing any better, rather than a deliberate change like in this case.

....Yeah I didn't say it was EXACTLY the same, I said it was similar.

I'm just saying for all the issues people had with the casting in that case, they didn't focus on a major issue with the actual content of the film. Same thing here, they aren't focusing on how the movie will turn out, they're focused on how it's made.

My point is just that it is not, in any sense, a change for an adaptation of a work written entirely in English to also be filmed in English. Honestly, I'm not certain that you can specifically call that a problem with the Memoirs of a Geisha movie; if it's an issue, then it's also an issue with the original work.

 

[PeterMerkin69]

Man, you spoiled, rich white kids wouldn't know racism if it jived out of the ghetto and robbed you with your own upper-middle class.

You know what? White doesn't define Johnny Storm, but then Johnny Storm has never been called a ******. He's never been denied a loan or turned down for a job because even though he seemed like one of the good ones, he once had a cousin who was doing time for running with the Niners and it's just not worth the risk. Johnny Storm doesn't frighten little old ladies if he stands behind them in line at the ATM. No one targets Johnny Storm in fast food adverts because they think he's too dumb to know any better. To say that changing his ethnicity wouldn't change the character is to dismiss the effect a lifetime of experience has on a person and, moreover, it is to dismiss the role of prejudice in society. HAVEN'T ANY OF YOU EVEN SEEN SOUL MAN?? [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_Man_%28film%29]

 

[Ulquiorra4sama]

I don't see what all the fuss is about. Isn't he going to be on fire during all the important scenes anyways?

 

[martyrdrebel27]

i dunno, i have mixed feelings about this. a character's race is part of their identity. even if it's not relevant to anything in their character, it's still a part of who they are. at the same time, i can see also how it doesnt have to matter... but think about the following ideas that, while not inherantly wrong, just also dont seem right:

1. black superman
2. black tony stark
3. asian Hulk

see? none of those characters are by necessity tied to their race, but it still wouldnt be right because it's not who they are.

edit: somewhat relevant, i was at first confused by Mos Def playing Ford Prefect, but after the initial confused shock wore off, it made not a single difference.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

TBH I find it more racist if the only reason they would consider a black man to play Torch is PC reasons. If there's a good reason (Idris Elba nailing the part of Heimdall for example) then by all means let the man play the part. If its just a ploy to add a black dude to the cast, this movie will tank because of PC reasons. Political Correctness does more harm than good... by that I mean adding a black guy to the cast because there isn't one isn't a good reason to do so. Do it if the guy has merit.

 

[Drake Barrow]

Eh, one word: adoption. It solves everything, it's one minor detail that's changed, and you can move on with life.

OT: You can't be totally blind to the source material, or otherwise you're not making a film about a character - you're making a film that happens to share the same name. And, sad but true, ethnicity does matter. If we were talking about Luke Cage being played by Steve Austin, I doubt most people would be willing to give it a hand wave. Ditto if we'd cast someone like Dennis Miller as James Rhodes in the Iron Man films.

Having said all that, I'm not opposed to the idea of details being swapped out, IF we get an actor/actress that can give us a good performance and a good movie. It's the Rule Of Kirk: the results are what matter, not the Prime Directive.

 

[Karlaxx]

Oh god.
A movie that was new and I enjoyed when I was a child is getting rebooted.
I suddenly feel so much older.

OT, I'v never really cared about race being a factor in casting decisions unless a real person is being portrayed or there's some important element to a character which is derived from their race, racial tension, etc.

 

[Froggy Slayer]

Unless Sue is black, then I don't like the idea. You can reboot the character, just like Fury, but you can't change their family or else they have to start messing with the character's background, too.

Why does Sue have to be black as well to keep people happy? One simple line "Hey, this is my adopted brother Johnny" and done. Not much to it.

So why re write two characters back story instead of just getting an actor of the proper race for either sibling? Which do you think is harder here?

"proper race"? Really?
Weird wording aside, it's not that hard to come up with a background, they're most likely not gonna dwell on it for more than two minutes. "Johnny was adopted by the Storm family when he was 5 or whatever." Easy as pie.

Really? "the proper race"?

Well, their mother died in a car crash when they were both young. So I guess that the father could've remarried.

I support having this guy as Human Torch. If you've seen Chronicle you'll see why.

 

[kickyourass]

Well this worked pretty well for Thor, so why not here? Sure I've never heard of this particular actor and Idris Elba is a well known British Actor, but I see no reason why the guy's race is even remotely connected to this issue. As far as I know Johnny Storm's race his not and has never been an important part of his characterization, so changing that really won't change anything. The only thing this will really change is that they'll have to cast a black actress as Susan Storm since they're siblings and the fact that they are siblings IS a massively important part of their characters, and making them adopted or step-siblings actually WOULD be a massive, important change to these two.

 

[EstrogenicMuscle]

Oh for goodness sake, who cares what the original race of the characters are? This is fiction for goodness sake.

And I'm not being a hypocrite. I never saw what the big deal was of casting Goku for Dragon Ball Z. Aside from the fact that Hollywood is too white dominated to begin with. The only problem I have is with the fact the Dragon Ball Z movie is an abomination.

Though I'm not a big fan of Dragon Ball Z, and even less of a fan of Marvel and DC comics. Muscly superhero power fantasies, eh, no thank you.

But, can Hollywood please have some more characters that aren't the same all of the time? Please and thank you? Please? Please?

 

[Deshin]

I fail to see why this is racist. For around 50 years Johnny Storm has been shown as a white man. At this stage it's just kind of expected that movie adaptations would follow suit with that. It's like having a black James Bond or a black version of The Doctor, it just doesn't really seem right after all this time. So naturally people are going to complain. It just seems like changing the source material for the sake of it, without doing anything new or interesting with the character.

A black version of Bond or The Doctor would actually make MORE sense because it's been shown The Doctor can regenerate into different forms and there's a long-prevailing trail of thought that "James Bond" is just an alias and the actual agent changes periodically.

And you're right, this is not racist. Apparently "unless the person is a neo-nazi there's no good reason they can't be a different race" and to that I call a steaming pile of bullshit. If you have a fictional character you have to take into account everything about that character when you want to portray that character into a different form of media. Ethnicity, nationality, age, hair colour, height, etc should all be taken into account when trying to cast your character for a movie. This isn't "being racist", it's being true to the character.

If there's a lack of black characters in the Marvel movies verse then perhaps it's more a sign that the movie studios need to get off their backside and start filming movies with actual black marvel characters in it like Black Panther or Luke Cage. Not just "oh now Johnny Storm is a black guy, we're totally open and progressive!" When you make a movie out of a story you're doing it for fans of the original character. People who've read the comics or who've watched the saturday morning cartoon. It falls upon the movie to portray the character as accurately as possible. The thing I'm most angry about is how most people here don't seem to even SEE there's a problem. This isn't even a minor character like Heimdal, this is JOHNNY STORM, he's one of the titular characters for crying out loud.

 

[F-I-D-O]

Is Sue Storm being played by a black actor? Because if she's not, Johnny shouldn't be. You know, genetics and skin tone and all that.

"Oh no! I'm too distracted by different colored siblings I can't concentrate on the movie!"

Actually, I would be. The relation between Sue and Johnny very much relies on sibling interactions, and I couldn't take that seriously if one was black and one was white. I can suspend my belief for a while, but not on one problem that would last throughout the entire movie. And adoption might work, but I'm not sure how I'd feel about it.

My problem with changing the race of Johnny is simply for consistency. The only thing that's really changed about the Fantastic 4 are the costumes and time. Also, the fact that they're costumes never cover their face. Spider-man, Deadpool, Doctor Doom, and Daredevil can all be played by any race (didn't have a real problem with Hispanic Spider-man after the initial "that's different") because the majority of their time is spent behind a mask. The race doesn't have an impact because it's the same costume and the same hero. As long as the person behind it can pull of the character's attitudes, I don't care.

However, with characters that show their face, race becomes more of an impact. The race has always been obvious since the first comic, with no full-body suit to hide it (which would allow more room for change. When I hear Spider-man, I don't think Peter Parker, I think of the Spidey suit. It's more of the character.). The only characters I could see ch of changing (without making a bunch of excuses) are Richard and the Thing, because they have no family attachments to the others. I will always see F4 as three white people and a rock, simply because that's how they were presented and appeared throughout my life. While the movie might be great, and the Chronicle actor might do a great job (and I'd only partially accept that change if Sue was black too), I'm not sure how I'd feel about the change.

Sidenote: With the Spider-man change, and important thing is that it was someone else who picked up the mantle after Peter Parker died (unless I'm terribly mistaken). This prevented family problems (Uncle Ben, Aunt May) such as the Sue-Johnny relations

 

[Lovely Mixture]

No offence to you either, but something like adoption would represent a far more significant change to the characters' history than casting black actors. It would require time in the film to explain, and it would be totally unnecessary. Also, I would actually be kind of annoyed if they did this and then didn't have the guts to go all the way with it. Jumping through hoops to keep the female lead and love interest white would really rub me the wrong way in a way that something like this doesn't. It would make the whole thing feel like a corporate gimmick.

Valid point. It would indeed come off as a gimmick and rather forced, especially considering if it was a change to an existing continuity. I was considering it more from a storytelling perspective, but considering we are talking about adaptation....the idea of it being an absurd change is very valid.

My point is just that it is not, in any sense, a change for an adaptation of a work written entirely in English to also be filmed in English. Honestly, I'm not certain that you can specifically call that a problem with the Memoirs of a Geisha movie; if it's an issue, then it's also an issue with the original work.

Ok, I see what you're saying now.
On a personal level, I guess it depends how far you demand historical accuracy and authenticity to an adaptation of a written work.

I was arguing that since the story is supposed to be reflection of a real Japanese person's life, it was strange that while no one was actually speaking Japanese in the film.... people were focusing on the the fact that the actress herself wasn't Japanese.

But on a personal level, yeah I can where I had a clear double standard.