So a black actor is considering role of Johnny Storm and nerdrage has turned racist again.

[tzimize]

So yeah,
http://www.thewrap.com/movies/column-post/will-chronicle-star-michael-b-jordan-be-human-torch-fantastic-four-88881
Michael B Jordan is considering being The Human Torch in the Fantastic Four reboot. Frankly, I think there's no problem here at all. A role, as far as I'm concerned, has nothing to do with the look of the character, but how well the actor can capture or interpret the character, but the comic book community is complaining all over the internet. Seriously, check the comments. It's not good stuff.

What does the Escapist make of this? Do you guys care about the race of a character in an adaptation?

I care a lot. I wouldnt want a white guy playing Spawn. And I'm white. If you're gonna make a new character, make a new character. There is no point in using source material if you're just gonna do something else anyway. I dont see ANY reason for the human torch to be black other than token black guy, or catering to racial demographics if thats a thing. And if you cater to racial demographics and make the human torch "homie"...you've already compromised the character.

 

[Shadowstar38]

I agree that double standards aren't good, but lets face, nearly everything in our culture (that of a western male oriented culture) is has the white man at it's centre. You'll never find a white man having trouble getting a superhero job, because so many of the superheroes are white dudes. It'll have to start out as a double standard until we get to a point where the playing field has been evened out. Let's be honest here, it's pretty steeped towards us right now (Us being white men) and it needs these double standards for now, just to level it out. In 20-40 years, your argument will have significant strength, but for now, WE just have to SUCK IT UP, let them have this momentary double standard and work towards a more inclusive future.

EDIT: I'd like to stress that I agree with you on some points, but you have to agree that the playing field is angled much more towards us.

I'm not white. Though that doesn't really matter.

I understand what the intent is behind this. But giving people extra help always seemed wrong to me. If he's a good enough actor, he's assured to get a role at some point where he fits. Everyone needs to stop giving certain people a hand up and start treating everyone like they're all the same.

If we want to give black actors more roles, the better solution is to go through the things that haven't gotten a shot at being adapted yet.

 

[Starik20X6]

I'm against this, not because racism but because I believe in sticking to the source material.
His character has been established as being a good looking, blonde haired white guy. That's who he is. He may not be defined characteristically by that but defined artistically. Changing that shits all over the original artists work and vision, regardless of what was originally intended.
He may be a fictional character, but hes already been well established (50 years) as to the way he looks.
I wouldn't want to see Black Panther or Luke Cage cast as white guys either because that's not who they are.

People bring up Samuel L. Jackson as Nick Fury and plenty of people have pointed out that in the Ultimate universe Nick Fury is black.
What I haven't seen pointed out is that Marvel approached Sam, and asked him if they could model Ultimate Nick Fury off of him.
So in a sense, Samuel L. Jackson IS Nick Fury in the comics as well as the movies.

Just my 2 cents.

But what's to stop him being a good looking black guy? As is sadly the case, 'white' is often treated as the cultural default, so it's not difficult to imagine race was not even slightly considered when Stan Lee and Jack Kirby originally created Johnny Storm. So unless Stan objects, nobody's shitting on anybody's vision.

And I'm not sure using Black Panther or Luke Cage as examples is good for your argument, because the race of both of those characters is important to their backstory and characterisation, so making them any other race would be dumb and bad for the character. Just like if someone decided "Magneto is Mexican now", then yes, by all means say that's a dumb thing, because Magneto's Jewish heritage is a big part of his personality, and has a profound impact on his worldview. Johnny Storm's race, on the other hand, has no bearing on his backstory or characterisation- I'm pretty sure you don't need to be white to be a daredevil hothead.

 

[Pigeon_Grenade]

i personally look forward to a day when a actors ability for a roll isent judged on anything but there ability's as an actor, not that roll should only be played by people like this and not this. if i remember right one of the gods in thor was cast as a black actor and everyone then said you shouldn't do it then.

silly

 

[Caffeine_Bombed]

Something like this is always going to present race issues. Trouble is, you can't make a significant change like this without people yelling "political correctness" all over town (and, unfortunately, I imagine they're right).

It's like Anthony Mackie playing The Falcon in the upcoming Winter Soldier movie: Black man playing black superhero. No problemo. Yet we all know what would happen if a white guy got the role.

So, internet, brace yourself. If they do cast a black actor they would technically have to cast a black actress as Susan Storm OR completely ignore the fact they're siblings. I can feel the stirrings of a racist nerd-rage right now...

Final point: Regardless of wether or not you liked Daredevil (FYI I love it) Michael Clarke Duncan as the big ol' whitey Kingpin was awesome.

'Nuff said.

 

[Vacher2]

We can't just call out and say ' do it because of how racist white men have been throughout history history and all the people they killed as they expanded'. I'm well aware that the past is horrific in this respect but there is a history of this to every culture. Everywhere, be it Asia or Africa has examples of native people being racist to others others and histories of violence. Racism is not just something that white people can do.

As a lot of people have said here 'give the role to him, as the black actor is in an unfair position in Hollywood and needs more representation' is going against 'putting the best actor in the role' it would be gifting him the role because to not do so would be ' unfair'. He would not be getting the part because he is a very talented actor but because it is okay to take the role away from a white man due to the monopoly they have at the moment.

Changing to black actors because it is 'fair' is not a step towards an even field it moves us towards having a 50/50 ratio in films just to show that everything is 'equal' without caring for the integrity of the production or the actor's ability. This moves towards a world where the black characters are cemented as black and the white characters are interchangeable but will.more often be cast as non-white to 'give them a chance'. If I was a non-white actor I would be patronised to think something other than my ability landed me the role and I was just there to be seen as politically correct.

As I have said the fans would scream just as much if Blade were turned white so how can they be racist they just want to see the characters they have seen in comics on the big screen.

 

[Druss the Legend]

Snip

But what's to stop him being a good looking black guy? As is sadly the case, 'white' is often treated as the cultural default, so it's not difficult to imagine race was not even slightly considered when Stan Lee and Jack Kirby originally created Johnny Storm. So unless Stan objects, nobody's shitting on anybody's vision.

And I'm not sure using Black Panther or Luke Cage as examples is good for your argument, because the race of both of those characters is important to their backstory and characterisation, so making them any other race would be dumb and bad for the character. Just like if someone decided "Magneto is Mexican now", then yes, by all means say that's a dumb thing, because Magneto's Jewish heritage is a big part of his personality, and has a profound impact on his worldview. Johnny Storm's race, on the other hand, has no bearing on his backstory or characterisation- I'm pretty sure you don't need to be white to be a daredevil hothead.

You are correct, Black Panther and Luke Cage were poor examples but were the only well known ones I could think of off the top of my head (which I suppose goes to prove, from my knowledge, how poor race was in comics I guess). I still stand by what I said however.

This character means something to a lot of people (living in secret basements unbeknownst to the world perhaps) and that something is based on what they know of the character, visually and emotionally. Changing something small about the character may detract some investment that a person may have placed in said character, because it is no longer said character and that can be upsetting and frightening for some people at first. This might not mean anything along those lines to you or I, and may even be stupid and trivial, but there are other fictional characters out there which I have come to love and were they to be put on the big screen I would hate ANY aspect of that character to be changed. If anything had been changed, it is no longer the character I know and love and Id feel duped. So I make a stand with the people who do not want to see the characters they know and love changed because of "reasons."

Saying that if this actually did happen, I would shrug my shoulders and go see the movie anyway.

Captcha: what if?

Hmmmm.....

 

[itsthesheppy]

I've never cared enough about Johnny Storm to give a toss one way or the other. All I know is that he sucked in the first two movies. It's amazing that the actor went on to do such a good Captain America.

 

[Chaos-Spider]

Not entirely sure what you mean on this one. You mean casting actors of one race for a movie based around the lives of people of another race?

I mean if movies in general are dominated by one race, then changing a character of an under-represented race into the over-represented race might not be the best of ideas.

I'm not really bothered about that, either. That's a little more questionable, but so long as they just choose an actor based on his ability to capture the personality of the original character, it should be fair game.

Well if they also make Sue Storm black then I don't really have a problem with it. But I can see where some people are coming from. If you really want your superhero's to look like they do in the comic then switching race is something you will disagree with. Same with different hair colour (Imagine the reaction to a blond Jean Gray) or costume.

Why should Sue Storm have to be black, too? There's such a thing as a "throwback" child. So long as somewhere in your lineage there is one family member of another race, a child can be born with a similar skin pigmentation in any generation afterwards. It's a recessive gene that's more common than you might think. Also, adoption is common there days.

Not sure about the Jean Gray thing. They made Lois Lane a redhead in Man of Steel. There's been no reaction.

Such biological and hereditary concepts are interesting, but how do you explain them in a universe that sets up the fundamental alteration of genetic material with simply "they were exposed to cosmic rays" without drawing attention to the ethnicity of the new Jonny Storm? Remember, the more time you have to spend justifying the changes in your reboot, the less time and writing you have to spend on making an interesting things for those characters to do.

It's just a lot easier in a narrative sense to say that the storm family (Sue and Jonny) came from a different neighborhood and met reed Richards in College. Where Sue and Richard fell in love, got married and started doing research and business together. You've just framed your character change in a manner that can be portrayed with zero dialogue as opposed to needing 2 minutes of it to explain something that won't really further a superhero narrative.

 

[Vacher2]

Just because the character of Johnny Storm was changed slightly in the last films; darker hair and different eye colour, doesn't mean that further change should be taken. The films that stick closely to source-material are often those that are most successful. If you continually adapt certain parts of the story to make it 'better' or 'more cultural' you're in danger of stepping away from what the series is. It could very quickly become unrecognisable and be something entirely separate from the Fantastic Four. Change for the sake of change is pointless.

 

[Kal-Adam]

While I'm not exactly in favor of Johnny Storm being portrayed as black, I would love a chance to give black superheros movie representation. Where is the Luke Cage movie? How about Black Panther? My objections stem from my tendency to be a canon nazi, but I would love a chance to see actual black superheros represented by any number of fantastic black actors. Seriously, Luke Cage movie please.

 

[Edguy]

People should be offended that they are rebooting THE FANTASTIC FOUR, not because the human torch MIGHT be played by a black guy...

What, you a big fan of the two previous films? -.^


And to everyone saying his race isn't an important part of his character; think about it--isn't one's race important for any character? Not just in the way he/she acts and thinks, but even more so in the way the audience perceives and judges him/her. Besides, the way I see it, Johnny Storm is a pretty arch-typical white, cocky frat-boy..

 

[CriticalMiss]

I think the most offensive thing about this is that there is going to be another Fantastic Four movie.

If Susan Storm is black too then I don't really see a problem. Inner-city-ghetto Four might be an interesting film to watch too, but that is slightly offensive so slaps on the wrist for saying it. Personally I have always seen Human Torch as a white guy, he was white in the comics and cartoon and he has been white in the games and movies. But if he is going to be literally on fire for significant parts of the film then I guess it doesn't really matter unless he is going to be horrendously stereotypically black in his mannerisms, speech etc.

On a related note, would it be racist if Black Panther was played by a white man? He's historically a black character. If it's ok for a white hero to be race-swapped then it should be ok for a black one to become white too.

 

[Shirokurou]

So his sister invisible woman is also black now?

This is pretty weird.

 

[Jaythulhu]

FFS, I am the only one sick to death of the dark ages mentality that still pervades humanity? Gender issues, skin colour issues, sexuality issues... Jesus Titty-Fucking Christ, can we get over this bullshit already and start dealing with the things that actually matter, like climate change, poverty, governmental/corporate corruption and so on?

Fuck me sideways with an arm-full of rotting deckchairs, this kind of petty, distracting bollocks needs to fucking end already.

 

[kamay]

Shoehorning in an "ethnic" character for the sake of having is dumb - like making watson lucy liu in that terrible sherlock show. If he showed up to the casting call and rocked the house by all means he should get the part. But casting him just because they want to get a demographic...I'm not saying they are doing it's all "what ifs". If the fat neck-beards who live and die by their comicbook canon don't like that a black guy got the roll to play a white guy, well to friggin' bad.

 

[Belbe]

Um, racism isn't even involed. People want to see their cartoon/comic/manga heroes come to life, and it's just not going to be good unless they look the part. Make a series of them being African American, and if that's good THEN go for a movie. They managed to change Nick Fury well enough, so it CAN be done, but for heavens sake make it legit first.

On another note, it's kind of ironic as the Fantastic 4 are about the whitest bunch of super heroes there ever was. I'm surprised there wasn't more cry over Alba playing Sue those past couple movies, eventhough they did give her blonde hair...

Oh, and after Avatar/Dragon Ball Evolution/Legend of Chun Li please - if you keep this up, the first thing I do when I get rich will be to commission a new Star Wars by an all Asian cast. I swear. And you supporters of these things better love it.

 

[Gorrath]

snip

This does seem to be the pervasive academic take on the idea of double standards in regards to race and sex relations. Personally, I don't care if they swap a character's race, at all. I don't care if they do it for so called "PC" reasons and I don't care if they do it because they feel the actor was the best available. Personally, Idris Elba absolutely ROCKED as Heimdall and was one of the very best things about that movie.

However, I find myself disagreeing with the pervasive academic thinking about double standards. Fighting injustice with injustice is not an acceptable way of doing things. The issue I have with the whole idea of racial and cultural privilege is that the idea is inherently racist. It allows people to far too easily hide racism in the form of calling out privilege because the whole theory is based on the idea that if you are x skin color, you are automatically given y consideration. This all comes down to the idea that we all belong to some kind of racial or sexual collectives, which is an idea I reject. Someone presuming they know anything about my life, or who I am, or what privileges I have actually been on the receiving end of simply because of the color of my skin is a racist notion at its core.

Saying that a certain race has inherent privilege based on a statistical analysis of metrics is fine, it is borne out by the data. However, then going out and creating double standards that harm individuals is not fine, at all, because that double standard is a racist one, and racism is not okay no matter who you do it to. If you are trying to create individual justice, you can't do that by treating everyone like the belong to some kind homogeneous racial collective. Telling a white person that it's okay that his race precluded him from getting a job because it helps balance the statistics of racial collectives is a sorely lacking comfort. Equally lacking is telling him that the double standard he just got hit by is okay, because he happens to share the same skin color as other people who dominate powerful positions. Going on to say that his inherent social/cultural privilege will or already has made up for that particular injustice is equally racist. In the end, I think using racism to fight racism is a terrible idea and that we need a new way of creating equal justice for everyone, no matter what skin color they happen to have, or what sex they happen to be. We may not live in a perfect world, but I cannot agree that we can solve racism by being racist. Just my 2 cents, and I absolutely realize I am at odds with the accepted academic understanding here.

 

[pexz darkwatch]

ok as far as the argument of "who cares about how hes been depicted in the past" the answer every single person who has complained and all the ones who are yet to do so.
I agree if there is a good reason for it its a perfectly legit idea to do so as long as they maintain the change with either a black sue or remove the family tie between the invisible woman and human torch (it is a reboot after all) but as a fan of the series theres a good chance that they might have well had the role of the thing played by a poodle because it forfilled the roles requirments and played it out in a new and intresting direction if they dont make it fit