So a black actor is considering role of Johnny Storm and nerdrage has turned racist again.

[Soviet Steve]

I'm tempted to call it racism that you would want to drag other ethnicities down with whites and... well.. rocks I guess. Then again there's the potential for this to not suck and I'm not sure if they actively wanted to embarrass innocent peoples.

 

[Edguy]

Is it alright for me to say "It's fantastic four. Nobody gives a shit."? Because these movies have been nothing but shit from day one and I see no reason to expect otherwise. So why does anyone at this point care?

Behind the central Justice League, the main Avengers, X-Men and Spider-Man, F4 is the biggest superhero franchise out there, and they have a lot of fans. So, yeah, I think a lot of people care. To be sure that a new movie will be absolute garbage just because the previous ones were seems pretty narrow minded, when the concept has just the same potential as other superhero movies. (Though, being handled by Fox, we probably shouldn't expect too much..)

 

[vid87]

...maybe ignoring her established character is the way to go.

Mr Fantastic - Genius, a bit oblivious, has trouble relating to others and taking emotional cues.

Johnny Storm - "Hot-head," energetic, never takes things seriously, reckless.

The Thing - Grumpy (especially about his transformation), acts tough but can be vulnerable.

Invisible Woman - .........


What exactly IS her "established" character? From what I understand, she's gone through so many personality changes, a lot of times mainly reflecting the dominant trends of women stereotypes:

50's - Meek, useless, goes by "Girl" instead of "Woman."

60's-70's - Recognizes past character, becomes far more independent, scornful.

Present (at least from what I've gathered from Tv / film versions) - Takes charge, no nonsense, babysitter to her adult(?) brother, frustrated with Reed's emotional disconnect.

I don't want to turn this into a gender issue, but would you say that latter one is what we "officially" recognize as her character, or is that the writer's way making as sure as they can that they don't revert to a more offensive character like the former? Could she maybe stand to gain a few more qualities to round out her personality? Could ALL of them use some rounding out? I'm curious.

Springboarding back OT - if this is what we understand as Johnny's established character, what exactly will casting a black actor honestly change other than perhaps some ultimately minute background info like him being adopted - if they don't actually focus on race in the story, the problem is mostly moot, though I get what people are saying by the whole "changes cannon" sentiment. Hell, if they DID focus on race, it might be an interesting explanation for why he acts like an idiot - dealing with racism or feeling out of place by maybe not knowing his heritage causes him to revert to a Spiderman-esq humor-based defense mechanism to hide his discomfort.

Look, I'm not exactly trusting of Hollywood's instinct for rationality or decision-making and I'm aware they can make changes purely for publicity, but it would be nice to think of these situations as trying to find what these kind of changes BRING to a character, how being different from the routine could make things better. I'm all for cannon and consistency, but shaking things up might prove worthwhile - look at Nick Fury.

 

[HalfTangible]

Also, nobody want's Marvel or Fox or whatever to choose the character purely for "PC" reasons. They should choose the best man for the job based on acting skills.

Correction: nobody intelligent wants an actor chosen for PC reasons. I saw it happen with that guy in Thor whose name escapes me (this was BEFORE the movie released and everyone saw that the guy /owned/ the part), and I guarantee there is somebody out there who is defending that this is the best move regardless of the actor's actual skill. Personally, I'm fine with changing the race as long as the guy can act and the character's race doesn't define them.

Wooooooooah, woah, woah, choosing him BECAUSE he's black would be just as bad as refusing to consider him because he's black. I don't think they should choose the actor based on his/her race at all.

The Heimdall (Idris Elba, by the way) thing was a mess. There were people saying they should cast him because he's black and there were no other black characters in the movie (or PC reasons, as you put it), and there were people saying he shouldn't even be considered for the role based on the face that the original character from the comics isn't black. I think both of these arguments are bullshit; It shouldn't matter. We really should be at the point now where shit like this doesn't matter.
Also, in my opinion, Idris Elba did an absolutely perfect job at the character of Heimdall. Funny how no one complained about his armour in the movie being gold, when he actually wears green and brown pelt in the comics.

WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA WHO whoa. whoa. Isn't that what I just said? It's sure as heck what I MEANT: pick an actor based on their acting skill, not their race. =/ IMO, Heimdall himself was boring, but not once did I ever doubt that I was watching a God responsible for guarding a rainbow bridge. So yeah, he was a great actor and casting him was a good call.

 

[RJ Dalton]

Though, being handled by Fox, we probably shouldn't expect too much..

I just assume everything is shit until it proves itself otherwise. Safer that way.

 

[Pyrolithic]

So, genuine question:

If they were instead considering a female actor for the human touch, would complainers be considered sexist?

and to current supporters, would you continue to support this ((and would you continue to use the same kind of justification: 'is the gender really an important part of the human tourches character? What does it matter which chromosomes they have?')
What about current non-supporters, would you continue to argue it's demerits based on their previous depictions not being female?

This is where I find the issue to be conflicting.

On the one hand, I don't really care whether or not the actor playing a character is white, black or whatever, provided the character's ethnicity isn't a significant part of the character's background and/or raison d'être. I thought the Heimdall debacle was a little bit silly and I suspect this one will be too.

On the other hand, there's the niggling doubt that I wouldn't be able to say the same if they turned Johnny Storm into a woman and never addressed it. Fans would obviously complain then, probably along much the same lines.

While I'm sure some of the arguments being made qualify as racist (we all know there's no shortage of these folks on the Internet), I feel it's more than a little bit dismissive to call out anyone not agreeing with the move sexist, a bigot, what have you.

 

[jpoon]

Would affect me a bit but I'm not sure why they'd rewrite the character just to get Michael in there. Wouldn't it just be a lot easier to put some random cracker in there?

 

[Lovely Mixture]

WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA WHO whoa. whoa. Isn't that what I just said? It's sure as heck what I MEANT: pick an actor based on their acting skill, not their race. =/ IMO, Heimdall himself was boring, but not once did I ever doubt that I was watching a God responsible for guarding a rainbow bridge. So yeah, he was a great actor and casting him was a good call.

The wording was a little confusing at the beginning I think.

"nobody intelligent wants an actor chosen for PC reasons."

Obviously you meant to say:
"It's stupid to choose an actor based on PC reasons alone" (with which I agree BTW)

The "nobody" somehow makes it hard to understand (I'm not sure why, but I had trouble reading it at first, even though the sentence is perfectly fine). So it comes out as:

"Intelligent people want an actor chosen on PC reasons" (which is the opposite of what you wanted to say)

I don't mean to correct your English BTW, I just like finding out how things get misread/misinterpreted.

 

[userwhoquitthesite]

Mr Fantastic - Genius, a bit oblivious, has trouble relating to others and taking emotional cues.

Johnny Storm - "Hot-head," energetic, never takes things seriously, reckless.

The Thing - Grumpy (especially about his transformation), acts tough but can be vulnerable.

Invisible Woman - .........


What exactly IS her "established" character? From what I understand, she's gone through so many personality changes, a lot of times mainly reflecting the dominant trends of women stereotypes:

50's - Meek, useless, goes by "Girl" instead of "Woman."

60's-70's - Recognizes past character, becomes far more independent, scornful.

Present (at least from what I've gathered from Tv / film versions) - Takes charge, no nonsense, babysitter to her adult(?) brother, frustrated with Reed's emotional disconnect.

I don't want to turn this into a gender issue, but would you say that latter one is what we "officially" recognize as her character, or is that the writer's way making as sure as they can that they don't revert to a more offensive character like the former? Could she maybe stand to gain a few more qualities to round out her personality? Could ALL of them use some rounding out? I'm curious.

You realize that you're just making my point, right? About Sue Storm, I mean. Her whole character is "and also, the woman!"

 

[mrhappy1489]

My people being black has a disadvantage because of the reputation my people have created. My people have piss poor education, have an atrocious crime-rate. My people is responsible for America homicide rate, were are responsible for incarceration rate. To a lesser extent is the same with Hispanics as they are in second place. So no, it is not white's fault, no need for the white guilt, and this is mostly a market thing which I explained earlier.

Basically if you are white, you are not responsible to the current problems for minorities, and if it make's you feel better know that world wide, you are a minority.

Sorry about that. As an Australian most of the bad stuff that has happened to our aborigines has been our fault and we treated them in a similar way to how african americans were treated. I'm not about to apologise for the things of the past, but I still what to actively assist in improving life for as many people as possible. Speaking as an Australian, a lot of what we did in the past has had lead on effects into the future. While I'm not saying that I was actively involved or condone any of it, I'm fairly certain that my ancestors had a had in it (One of my ancestors was a Lieutenant Governor of Launceston in Tasmania and the treatment of the Aboriginals at the time there was incredibly brutal). I'm not saying that I feel guilty about what happened then, but I don't want to use that as a free pass to go, well my hands are clean let them sort themselves out. I what to help in anyway that I can and particularly with tha aborigines I want to see them either move into society properly if that's their choice or assist them in returning to the way they were. Call me naive if you must, but we're the ones who fucked them up and I cannot and will not sit on my ass and do nothing.

 

[WarpZone]

*shrug*

It worked in Thor.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

*shrug*

It worked in Thor.

And blazing saddles.

 

[SinisterDeath]

So yeah,
http://www.thewrap.com/movies/column-post/will-chronicle-star-michael-b-jordan-be-human-torch-fantastic-four-88881
Michael B Jordan is considering being The Human Torch in the Fantastic Four reboot. Frankly, I think there's no problem here at all. A role, as far as I'm concerned, has nothing to do with the look of the character, but how well the actor can capture or interpret the character, but the comic book community is complaining all over the internet. Seriously, check the comments. It's not good stuff.

What does the Escapist make of this? Do you guys care about the race of a character in an adaptation?

To me, this depends on.. how much are they going to retcon everything? Johny Storm is Susan Storm's Brother... ergo, if he is black, thus she should be to. If they show her in it, as a white girl, than... how are they going to play the brother/sister thing? (pretty sure in the comics, they had the same parents to...)

That said.

What would people think, if they Rebooted the movie Shaft, with a white man playing shaft?
Or a Chinese guy, playing Al'Capone in a Mobster movie?

 

[Somnambulistic]

So yeah,
http://www.thewrap.com/movies/column-post/will-chronicle-star-michael-b-jordan-be-human-torch-fantastic-four-88881
Michael B Jordan is considering being The Human Torch in the Fantastic Four reboot. Frankly, I think there's no problem here at all. A role, as far as I'm concerned, has nothing to do with the look of the character, but how well the actor can capture or interpret the character, but the comic book community is complaining all over the internet. Seriously, check the comments. It's not good stuff.

What does the Escapist make of this? Do you guys care about the race of a character in an adaptation?

To me, this depends on.. how much are they going to retcon everything? Johny Storm is Susan Storm's Brother... ergo, if he is black, thus she should be to. If they show her in it, as a white girl, than... how are they going to play the brother/sister thing? (pretty sure in the comics, they had the same parents to...)

That said.

What would people think, if they Rebooted the movie Shaft, with a white man playing shaft?
Or a Chinese guy, playing Al'Capone in a Mobster movie?

I think a point that's being missed is that a lot of these characters that are being turned black are from comics that originated in a time where there weren't many black people in media. There still aren't many. See Moviebob's vids "Skin Deep" etc.

I don't agree with the examples of Shaft or Al Capone at all just because they are of a specific race or time period/culture that's actually really important to their characters.

Shaft, is a black detective. He's all about blaxploitation and if you take that away he's got no point. Unless you wanted to make the the rest of Shaft's world black and have Shaft be a white guy. Then maybe that would work. But otherwise, not really.

Al Capone is all about his time period and was born to Italian immigrants. Change his race and you'll have to change how he grew up, how people treated him when he walked down the street or even when he tried to get a drink. It wouldn't make sense.

I think people miss the point a lot about some characters and why they are what they are. In comics this is more true than anywhere else. White is the default, and it's not a bad thing, but when someone is a different race it's usually for a reason to give them different values, a different look or culture or upbringing, etc. Their different race is usually a selling point for the character.

With a white character, it's usually everything else that's the selling point. Hawkeye, isn't necessarily limited by his race unless of course you specify that he's Irish, same with many of the X-men, Hawkman/Woman, or even the Flash (though he is iconic as a white guy).

Characters that would have a harder time turning into another race believably would be the larger mainstays, like Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, whose back stories are pretty concrete which kind of effects how well it can be pulled off if you change their skin color, imo.

Sure you can turn Supes' black, but how would you do it and do it well?

ETA and OT: It wouldn't bother me if Johnny was black. If they wanted to they could make him Adopted. Them being blood siblings wasn't really a big point was it? Part of the fun of changes is enjoying the new stuff that comes with it.

 

[2012 Wont Happen]

I don't have any problem with a black member of the Fantastic Four, or really any problem with that member being Johnny Storm. It just wouldn't be the best character to make black from a logical perspective.

Johnny Storm is a rash and generally pretty violent character who fits all too well into the stereotypes racists apply to black people. In addition, he has a sister in the group. Granted, they could also cast a black actress as his sister or explain that one had been adopted to get around that, but if they don't do one of those things it wouldn't make sense.

It would make more sense to cast a black actor as Reed Richards. From a standpoint of re-envisioning comics written in a more racist time, it would make more sense as Richards is a highly intellectual character. From a standpoint of plot consistency, as the majority of big name actors and actresses in Hollywood are white, it would be easier to cast a black man in the role of Richards.

All of that being said, Michael B. Jordan is bad ass and I highly encourage any filmmaker considering him for any role to put him in it.

 

[SinisterDeath]

I don't have any problem with a black member of the Fantastic Four, or really any problem with that member being Johnny Storm. It just wouldn't be the best character to make black from a logical perspective.

Johnny Storm is a rash and generally pretty violent character who fits all too well into the stereotypes racists apply to black people. In addition, he has a sister in the group. Granted, they could also cast a black actress as his sister or explain that one had been adopted to get around that, but if they don't do one of those things it wouldn't make sense.

It would make more sense to cast a black actor as Reed Richards. From a standpoint of re-envisioning comics written in a more racist time, it would make more sense as Richards is a highly intellectual character. From a standpoint of plot consistency, as the majority of big name actors and actresses in Hollywood are white, it would be easier to cast a black man in the role of Richards.

All of that being said, Michael B. Jordan is bad ass and I highly encourage any filmmaker considering him for any role to put him in it.

See I mostly disagree with Johny being black, if his sister isn't black to. Making him Adopted, could be a fix. But generally they've always been a brother-sister team, From essentially a 'rich' family. (and yes, the rich family could have adopted Johny) And while I'm not against a multi-diversity family at all. (and if walmarts any guide, neither is the general population!) Those that read the comics, might get pissed if they make them not siblings. That's half of their rivalry right there.

As to the quote;
Now see, that I can agree with.
The comment about the stereotypical issues with having him play Johny, versus having a black actor play Richards? A guy who is an intelligent, scientist role model of a figure. (Though I could imagine the jokes about his super power )

Side note.
This guy should play Reed Richards.

Seriously, ever nerd in the world would see the movie if he was Reed Richards. lol

 

[vid87]

Mr Fantastic - Genius, a bit oblivious, has trouble relating to others and taking emotional cues.

Johnny Storm - "Hot-head," energetic, never takes things seriously, reckless.

The Thing - Grumpy (especially about his transformation), acts tough but can be vulnerable.

Invisible Woman - .........


What exactly IS her "established" character? From what I understand, she's gone through so many personality changes, a lot of times mainly reflecting the dominant trends of women stereotypes:

50's - Meek, useless, goes by "Girl" instead of "Woman."

60's-70's - Recognizes past character, becomes far more independent, scornful.

Present (at least from what I've gathered from Tv / film versions) - Takes charge, no nonsense, babysitter to her adult(?) brother, frustrated with Reed's emotional disconnect.

I don't want to turn this into a gender issue, but would you say that latter one is what we "officially" recognize as her character, or is that the writer's way making as sure as they can that they don't revert to a more offensive character like the former? Could she maybe stand to gain a few more qualities to round out her personality? Could ALL of them use some rounding out? I'm curious.

You realize that you're just making my point, right? About Sue Storm, I mean. Her whole character is "and also, the woman!"

I kind've thought when you said "established character" that there was something more to work with than that. I need to mention that I'm a comics novice at best and don't have a lot of knowledge about a lot of characters, even recent comic events. What I had listed is what I've heard mostly through the grapevine and limited experience with comics and other media so I thought I may have been missing something that you or someone else could elaborate on.

So, yeah, I agree with your point. And we could extend that to other female characters for that matter, at least those who aren't X-Men or She-Hulk. For example, does Wasp have any notable characteristics outside her relationship (troubled or otherwise) with Pym? Does Ms (now Captain I believe?) Marvel have a defined personality outside her bought with alcoholism?

Springboarding again before this turns off-topic (which I apologize since I seem like I've been steering it that way), I think this line of thinking applies to black characters too in that there's not much dimentionalization outside of their race - like, maybe for Black Panther, but not for Luke Cage. As I said before, maybe making Johnny black could prove to be a good thing in terms of making his personality have more meaning other than "he's just a goof."

 

[mrseriousguy]

I don't have any problem with a black member of the Fantastic Four, or really any problem with that member being Johnny Storm. It just wouldn't be the best character to make black from a logical perspective.

Johnny Storm is a rash and generally pretty violent character who fits all too well into the stereotypes racists apply to black people. In addition, he has a sister in the group. Granted, they could also cast a black actress as his sister or explain that one had been adopted to get around that, but if they don't do one of those things it wouldn't make sense.

It would make more sense to cast a black actor as Reed Richards. From a standpoint of re-envisioning comics written in a more racist time, it would make more sense as Richards is a highly intellectual character. From a standpoint of plot consistency, as the majority of big name actors and actresses in Hollywood are white, it would be easier to cast a black man in the role of Richards.

All of that being said, Michael B. Jordan is bad ass and I highly encourage any filmmaker considering him for any role to put him in it.

See I mostly disagree with Johny being black, if his sister isn't black to. Making him Adopted, could be a fix. But generally they've always been a brother-sister team, From essentially a 'rich' family. (and yes, the rich family could have adopted Johny) And while I'm not against a multi-diversity family at all. (and if walmarts any guide, neither is the general population!) Those that read the comics, might get pissed if they make them not siblings. That's half of their rivalry right there.

As to the quote;
Now see, that I can agree with.
The comment about the stereotypical issues with having him play Johny, versus having a black actor play Richards? A guy who is an intelligent, scientist role model of a figure. (Though I could imagine the jokes about his super power )

Side note.
This guy should play Reed Richards.

Seriously, ever nerd in the world would see the movie if he was Reed Richards. lol

Neil Degrasse Tyson as Reed would be an improvement. At least he'll get the science and terms Right. I have no problem with Black Johnny and/or Sue it adds layers on the character which originally was stated above. And lets be Honest here if Stan Lee isn't bitching about this characters changing colors or adding different dimensions. Why should complain?

 

[Taurus Vis]

Idris Elba played Heimdallr awesome in Thor. I see no problem. I also liked Michael Duncan as Kingpin in Daredevil. He was probably the only good part of that movie.

 

[R.Nevermore]

I say we get Peter Dinklage to play the next James Bond. I mean... He's a dwarf... But it's only one little feature. Ad it's not as if anyone ever mentions Bond's lack of dwarfism right? It's not exactly defining to his character.

Look... While I don't care at all about fantastic four, I do care about bond. And I think it would be dumb to make the next bond black. Does that make me racist? I have a preexisting image in my head of what Bond should look like. Daniel Craig pushed it, but he was able to. He played the part better than any other since Sean Connery. The changes to bond's image here were subtle, but could be overcome by fine acting. Certain changes would be too massive, and would shatter my perception of bond in a most unwelcome way. It wouldn't be bond, even if he played the part well... I could never accept him. I mean, I have no doubt that Peter Dinklage could play a fantastic James Bond... But I still wouldn't accept him in that role

If we really want a suave, womanizing secret agent, and we want him to be black, lets have a new IP altogether.

Better yet, I'd like to see an IP with Peter Dinklage playing a badass action role where his dwarfism isn't a central defining part of his character. It's there, and it's mentioned, but it isn't defining.