So a black actor is considering role of Johnny Storm and nerdrage has turned racist again.

[Lilani]

This is not about racism. This is about being accurate to the source material.

Aang, Katara, and Sokka aren't white.

Bane isn't British.

Johnny Storm isn't black.

These are not hard things to avoid fucking up.

Also, Famke Janssen had to die her hair red to play Jean grey. So this would would logically...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiteface_(performance)

Yeah...fuck no.

The problem I have with this argument is that it assumes the race of the character was originally chosen because of the creators making an active decision. But let's be honest with ourselves, here--the Fantastic Four premiered in 1961. What are the chances of a character of color with non-racist powers premiering that early in the 60s? He wasn't made white because the creators felt that was the best choice for the character. He was white because the social conventions of the time would not have allowed anything else.

And the same can be said of pretty much any other super hero until the about the 70s and 80s. If those comics were remade today, do you really think they'd all end up pasty white again? Probably not. And if they did, then their creators would face some serious scrutiny in regard to their apparent aversion to people who aren't white.

So I say, why not add back some of that color? They were only white in the first place because they premiered at a time when society was really, really racist. And in case you're curious, I do have a problem with the water tribe in the Last Airbender turning white, because they were what they were because of a creative decision. Changing the race there wasn't overwriting racism, it was overwriting a conscious and creative decision.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

This is not about racism. This is about being accurate to the source material.

Aang, Katara, and Sokka aren't white.

Bane isn't British.

Johnny Storm isn't black.

These are not hard things to avoid fucking up.

Also, Famke Janssen had to die her hair red to play Jean grey. So this would would logically...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiteface_(performance)

Yeah...fuck no.

The problem I have with this argument is that it assumes the race of the character was originally chosen because of the creators making an active decision. But let's be honest with ourselves, here--the Fantastic Four premiered in 1961. What are the chances of a character of color with non-racist powers premiering that early in the 60s? He wasn't made white because the creators felt that was the best choice for the character. He was white because the social conventions of the time would not have allowed anything else.

And the same can be said of pretty much any other super hero until the about the 70s and 80s. If those comics were remade today, do you really think they'd all end up pasty white again? Probably not. And if they did, then their creators would face some serious scrutiny in regard to their apparent aversion to people who aren't white.

So I say, why not add back some of that color? They were only white in the first place because they premiered at a time when society was really, really racist. And in case you're curious, I do have a problem with the water tribe in the Last Airbender turning white, because they were what they were because of a creative decision. Changing the race there wasn't overwriting racism, it was overwriting a conscious and creative decision.

So if the old version was so racist, why not just make a new, multicultural superhero team? What possible reason is there to want to keep something like that around but altered to be more palatable to modern standards? Seems to me like that's glossing over the social issues of the past moreso than meeting the ones of the present.

 

[Lilani]

So if the old version was so racist, why not just make a new, multicultural superhero team? What possible reason is there to want to keep something like that around but altered to be more palatable to modern standards? Seems to me like that's glossing over the social issues of the past moreso than meeting the ones of the present.

The idea isn't just to make a multicultural rainbow of colors. The idea is to make sure a conscious, creative decision is being made when casting or rebooting the character. If that creative decision leads to a race change, then that's fine. And if it doesn't, then that's fine too. I don't have a problem with the act of changing or not changing a character's race. What I have a problem with is the reasons these decisions are made. Adamantly keeping a character white because their creators long ago were racist or weren't able to do anything different because of societal conventions is just thoughtless. And at the same time, changing a character's race when there was a creative decision and reason already in place is dishonoring the creator (unless we're talking about a reboot rather than an adaptation, then there's some more wiggle room there).

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

So if the old version was so racist, why not just make a new, multicultural superhero team? What possible reason is there to want to keep something like that around but altered to be more palatable to modern standards? Seems to me like that's glossing over the social issues of the past moreso than meeting the ones of the present.

The idea isn't just to make a multicultural rainbow of colors. The idea is to make sure a conscious, creative decision is being made when casting or rebooting the character. If that creative decision leads to a race change, then that's fine. And if it doesn't, then that's fine too. I don't have a problem with the act of changing or not changing a character's race. What I have a problem with is the reasons these decisions are made. Adamantly keeping a character white because their creators long ago were racist or weren't able to do anything different because of societal conventions is just thoughtless. And at the same time, changing a character's race when there was a creative decision and reason already in place is dishonoring the creator (unless we're talking about a reboot rather than an adaptation, then there's some more wiggle room there).

You still didn't answer my question. If the decision was made because the creators were racist, why give their works the time of day? Why not make a new, not rooted in racism property?

 

[Lilani]

You still didn't answer my question. If the decision was made because the creators were racist, why give their works the time of day? Why not make a new, not rooted in racism property?

It's the same reason almost nobody is making new property these days: rebooting or adapting a known and still popular name is less risky than trying to establish a new one.

It's like Aunt Jemima's maple syrup. Aunt Jemima's first came about under that name because it came out at a time when black women were overwhelmingly associated with subservient roles, such as cooking and house cleaning. So the idea was pretend the syrup was made by a woman named "Aunt Jemima"--a woman whose biggest role is to make you, the white consumer, delicious maple syrup.

Now the brand still exists, but unless you read up on its history you don't know anything about that. They just took the focus away from that and now with time the trope has faded from most people's common knowledge. Personally, I still find it a bit off-putting now that I know about it, but I never bought the syrup anyway (I'm a Hungry Jack gal, myself) and as long as nobody else is greatly offended I don't care one way or another what goes on with it.

So back to comics. While the characters were created during a racist time and that's why they're white, the characters themselves are not racist. Like the syrup--only the connotation behind the name was racist, not the product itself. So a bit of rebranding can easily fix that. And in a way, mixing up a few races is akin to making a new property. You're simply giving certain aspects of it a slightly different aesthetic identity. Rebranding and changing up canon is something that is rampant in comics, adaptations, and reboots. I don't really get why most comic book fans won't bat an eye at Batman's transition from your standard goody-two-shoes hero to the "Dark Knight," a psychologically troubled man who finds solace in killing people in the dark. But as soon as you make him black, that's simply going too far.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

You still didn't answer my question. If the decision was made because the creators were racist, why give their works the time of day? Why not make a new, not rooted in racism property?

It's the same reason almost nobody is making new property these days: rebooting or adapting a known and still popular name is less risky than trying to establish a new one.

It's like Aunt Jemima's maple syrup. Aunt Jemima's first came about under that name because it came out at a time when black women were overwhelmingly associated with subservient roles, such as cooking and house cleaning. So the idea was pretend the syrup was made by a woman named "Aunt Jemima"--a woman whose biggest role is to make you, the white consumer, delicious maple syrup.

Now the brand still exists, but unless you read up on its history you don't know anything about that. They just took the focus away from that and now with time the trope has faded from most people's common knowledge. Personally, I still find it a bit off-putting now that I know about it, but I never bought the syrup anyway (I'm a Hungry Jack gal, myself) and as long as nobody else is greatly offended I don't care one way or another what goes on with it.

So back to comics. While the characters were created during a racist time and that's why they're white, the characters themselves are not racist. Like the syrup--only the connotation behind the name was racist, not the product itself. So a bit of rebranding can easily fix that. And in a way, mixing up a few races is akin to making a new property. You're simply giving certain aspects of it a slightly different aesthetic identity. Rebranding and changing up canon is something that is rampant in comics, adaptations, and reboots. I don't really get why most comic book fans won't bat an eye at Batman's transition from your standard goody-two-shoes hero to the "Dark Knight," a psychologically troubled man who finds solace in killing people in the dark. But as soon as you make him black, that's simply going too far.

Yeah, but if you'll notice, Aunt Jemima is still black on the syrup labels. It's just such an established brand that it doesn't really /need/ any advertising at this point.

As for the rest: Okay, so basically because the entertainment industry is non-creative, and you're assuming that the author of the comic was racist for making his cast white (instead of either A.) his audience being racist, B.)him making a conscious decision to make the cast white for non-racist reasons, or C.)it was far enough back that it was kind of silly to expect four characters who got their powers because they were astronauts at a time when there were no non-white astronauts and few if any non-white people rich enough to start a private space program, which I'm pretty sure is the actual back story there.

So if it's what you're saying, you have kind of sort of an argument, although it totally hinges on accepting Hollywood's lack of creativity and accepting the fact that they're re-using a racist property, and just expecting them to use it in a non-racist manner.

If it's B, you're disrespecting the original author. If it's C, you're doing the worst thing of all: you're white washing (or brown washing, as the case may be) the past. You do not fix the crimes and inequalities of the past by pretending they did not exist. You fix it by making sure they don't exist /today./ Taking an old property like that and updating it in the way you're saying for the reasons your seeing is the former, not the latter.

Edit: Messed up with the part about A -- listed A, but described the results of the author being racist. If it's the audience, same as C. Really even if it's the author, should be the same as C. I mean, if the property was racist from the get go, it would be like making a movie out of Mein Kampf (not a narrative story I know, but bear with me) and making some of the blond haired blue eyed Germans black. If the property is really racist like that, this isn't the way to fix it.

Edit Edit: Also, Batman does not kill people. And that's just about the only constant the character has had over the years. Even that's not totally constant, since the first few issues had him carrying a gun and basically being a 1930's pulp hero with a fancy costume. That's a different case from the Fantastic Four, who are kind of the bland unchanging anchor that the rest of the Marvel universe grew up around. Like Superman is for DC.

Also, Batman is a serial position that's been held by a couple different people over the years. A black Batman would fly. A black Bruce Wayne would not.