So About Game of Thrones Last Night...

snowfi6916

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Did they purposefully change it so that Jaime rapes Cersei?

I'm asking because in the book, that passage has Cersei not wanting to at first, but then saying:

"Hurry," she was whispering now, "quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime." Her hands helped guide him.

During the episode last night, she NEVER SAYS THAT. So, by the rules of consent, Jaime raped her.

This pisses me off, because it belittles rape and it means they only added it to the show for shock value. What's worse is that Martin was probably okay with it since he works on the show too.

The other side of this is that that chapter in the book is told from Jaime's perspective, so maybe Martin was writing what Jaime was thinking he was hearing? I don't know... obviously rape occurs in Westeros. I'm not upset about that. But if that scene was not supposed to be a rape scene and they changed it just for shock, that's another thing entirely.

Thoughts?
 

hazabaza1

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snowfi6916 said:
The other side of this is that that chapter in the book is told from Jaime's perspective, so maybe Martin was writing what Jaime was thinking he was hearing?
I... doubt that. A lot of how things get referred to get changed a lot based on the perspective but generally things are stated true to how they happen. Cersie's state of mind and reactions afterwards also make it seem more consensual.

There's already a good few articles on the internet about this and I've got to agree that it's a shitty change (though I haven't seen the episode yet but I have read through that book). It removes a lot of the agency/power that Book Cersei has and changes Jamie from being 'desperate lonely lover' to 'creepy rape guy'.

Though they managed to salvage Danerys' relationship (even though it did seem kind of stockholm-ish until Drogo died) so we'll have to wait and see how this turns out.
 

tippy2k2

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I'm not sure what to think about that.

I have not read the books (I am in the process of changing that but I am not that far yet). I don't know what's going to happen.

With that said, the books and the TV Show are supposedly two different things. If Jaime and Cersei's relationship stays unchanged, then I think we can get the pitch forks for the show using "Shock Value".

However, until that happens, we don't know where they're going with this. Jaime may become a very different character than we've seen or this might be setting something with Cersei or something else entirely. As rough of a scene that is, we don't know what the payoff is going to be later yet since they may be deviating from the books now. Maisie Williams (Arya Stark) has stated that the books and the show are going to start breaking away from each other now...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/07/game-of-thrones-season-4_n_5104139.html

"This year there's a few key plot twists and the way [the show's] writers go about it is different than the books," she said. "I think fans of the books will be a little confused, which I think is fantastic because it keeps it interesting for everyone."

For example (Spoilers for the show are alright I presume?), according to that article, the Hound is the one who kills Polliver in the book where Arya is the one who puts Needle through his throat in the show.
 

Silvanus

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It's a fairly significant change, I must say.

That said, other characters have gone through bigger ones-- the burning on Dragonstone, for example. In the book, Alester Florent attempted to strike a secret deal with the Lannisters, offering Stannis' daughter as a marriage to Joffrey in exchange for peace, behind Stannis' back.

In the show, they leave that (pretty vital) exposition out-- and Stannis merely calls him an "infidel". They did have the line afterwards, showing that Stannis wasn't happy about it, but it's a big change nonetheless. Men do not lose their lives for worshipping the wrong gods under Stannis, and that wasn't made clear at all.
 

CyberSinner

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Personally, maybe [and I know I am going to probably get in trouble] it wasn't that she didn't want to have sex with him. Maybe she was saying no and it isn't right maybe just maybe because she lost her child. And they are having the kinky near his dead body. Different interpretations.
 

Erttheking

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Well, I talked about it to my friend who had read the books, and while she didn't go too far into it she did say "The books didn't portray him in a much better light" so...at the very best it sounds like Cersei's consent was ambiguous in the books.
 

Erttheking

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SmashLovesTitanQuest said:
erttheking said:
Well, I talked about it to my friend who had read the books, and while she didn't go too far into it she did say "The books didn't portray him in a much better light" so...at the very best it sounds like Cersei's consent was ambiguous in the books.
Does she frequent Tumblr, by any chance?
You know, with the attitudes so many people have towards "Social justice warriors" on this website, I'm not sure if that was supposed to be an insult or not. I suppose I didn't make this very clear, but it was a causal conversation and she wasn't directly answering my question. So...yeah.

EDIT: Yeah, just ran it by her more directly. She described it as "Not quite rape. She didn't give consent, but they both kinda jumped each other"

Also, funnily enough, apparently the direction of the episode commented on how it wasn't supposed to be seen as rape. Even my mother, who watched the episode right beside me, said it looked like Cersei was unbuttoning Jamie's shirt halfway through, and she thought that "It's not right" was about the fact that they were doing it in the same room as Joffery's body.
 

Silvanus

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SmashLovesTitanQuest said:
Friendly reminder that Loras has sex with every homosexual man in KL
Was Loras in that episode...?

The fellah with Oberyn and Ellaria was Olyvar.
 

Sean Hollyman

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When I saw it happening I was just like whaaaaaaaat. Just after they make Jaime out to be a good guy, more of a misunderstood character from his buddy cop journey with Brienne of Tarth
 

StriderShinryu

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He absolutely does rape her, and the scene made me quite uncomfortable to watch. That said, I don't think it necessarily means they made the change for shock value. Quite frankly, it's too early to call that. We already know they fairly significantly changed the timeline in which things happen, and they have made other changes from the books as well. Perhaps they are taking Jamie and Cersei in different directions from the books but that's not inherently wrong. The TV show and the books are two separate things and perhaps are going to end up telling different stories (or the same story but in a different way).
 

[REDACTED]

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With one episode, they managed to kill all of my enthusiasm for what had been my favourite show of all time. I'm done with this fucking series. Oh well. Off to the books I guess.
 

dyre

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Heh, may as well fuck up the TV series at some point. Even if they managed to do a good season 4, the source material really starts going downhill from there, and fast. Maybe they plan to take the show in a different direction entirely...unless they plan to start releasing one season per five years after season 5, it might be the only alternative anyway.

But yeah, it's definitely not rape in the books. Not even ambiguous.
 

Lil_Rimmy

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Wait, I'm getting mixed messages here. Does Jamie actually rape her or what? Or is Cersei clearly into it, just missing lines from the book?

Haven't seen the episode yet, but this isn't exactly much of a spoiler.
 

[REDACTED]

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Lil_Rimmy said:
Wait, I'm getting mixed messages here. Does Jamie actually rape her or what? Or is Cersei clearly into it, just missing lines from the book?

Haven't seen the episode yet, but this isn't exactly much of a spoiler.
Rape. Absolutely, incontestably rape. Cersei is clearly horrified and keeps on saying "no" over and over again throughout the entire scene.
 

Lil_Rimmy

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[REDACTED said:
]
Lil_Rimmy said:
Wait, I'm getting mixed messages here. Does Jamie actually rape her or what? Or is Cersei clearly into it, just missing lines from the book?

Haven't seen the episode yet, but this isn't exactly much of a spoiler.
Rape. Absolutely, incontestably rape. Cersei is clearly horrified and keeps on saying "no" over and over again throughout the entire scene.
Huh.

I'll have to watch the episode soon, that doesn't exactly sound like something that would happen. Especially literally after the last episode.

Da fuq? Much confused.
 

Boris Goodenough

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Just rewatched the scene 5 times, she opens one button and kisses him passionately at least once on the way down to the floor says: "Not here, it's not right, stop it stop it, stop it, stop it, stop, it's not right, stop right, it's not right... no, don't you, don't you!".
It does sound like Headey plays the role as if she abhores the location (big surprise), not the act itself.
 

Colour Scientist

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Boris Goodenough said:
Just rewatched the scene 5 times, she opens one button and kisses him passionately at least once on the way down to the floor says: "Not here, it's not right, stop it stop it, stop it, stop it, stop, it's not right, stop right, it's not right... no, don't you, don't you!".
It does sound like Headey plays the role as if she abhores the location (big surprise), not the act itself.
Yes because saying no over and over again is so ambiguous, whether it's because of the location or the act she still explicitly resists.

OP: It's definitely a lot more rapey than the books. In the books, if I recall correctly, it's one of the first times they see each other after Jaime returns with Brienne so it's a passionate reunion kind of thing.
It's almost romantic in an incesty, fucking your twin next to your dead kid kind of way.

I'm not really sure where they're going with this because they seem to have put a lot of work into making Jaime a more sympathetic character. I can kind of guess what the implications for the story might be but if they're just trying to put a wedge between Jaime and Cersei, there were probably better, more subtle and more clever ways to do it.