So apparently JonTron is a racist

[Dansen]

Not sure if this belonged in off-topic or R&P

I can't embed this video for some reason so you will have to go see it on youtube.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RQA9GZprqM&t=67s

https://www.reddit.com/r/JonTron/comments/5z69gh/35_quote_compilation_of_the_debate/

So, for some reason Jon Jafari decided to it was time to change careers from entertainment to political pundit and it is going horribly. During a streamed debate with streamer Destiny, the beloved youtuber said quite a few things with rather racist implications. Some choice quotes:

"Wealthy Blacks commit more crimes than poor whites, thats a fact."

"They're [whites] are not being killed, they're being displaced. You are the same guy who says that Europeans displaced the native Americans but apparently, when other people do it to white Americans, it's okay because fuck white people."

"Why is it when the chinese were trying to colonise tibet, why was that a save tibet situation but when it's white people... I'm using an analogy to try to give a parallel situation so you can see the hypocrisy."

"I don't recall Trump ever saying anything explicitly racist."

"We've gotten rid of discrimination in our western countries. If you don't think we've gotten rid of discrimination, you're living in a fantasy land."

The whole thing was a mess and it seemed like Jon was woefully unprepared for this "debate". Destiny kept trying to get Jon to expand on his ideas, but every time he did that Jon would change the subject. It felt like Jon was sticking his head in the sand and refusing to engage, which begs the question of why he participated in the first place. The youtube comment section is a hive of alt right buzzwords and Jon apologists. This really sucks.

 

[PsychicTaco115]

Gotta remove from the politics from the person if you want to enjoy their content

Can't say I have a stake in this so that's my opinion...

OR IS IT

 

[Terminal Blue]

DISPLACEMENT TEST: Can you drive to McDonalds in blackface and get biggest Big Mac value meal? If yes: Not being displaced.

Okay, serious time..

Destiny kept trying to get Jon to expand on his ideas, but every time he did that Jon would change the subject. It felt like Jon was sticking his head in the sand and refusing to engage, which begs the question of why he participated in the first place.

Because the alt-right don't care.

They're not interested in what's actually true or what's actually going on in the world, they're interested in what would need to be going on in the world for their feelings and prejudices to be justified, and they know that some people are going to share those feelings and prejudices and thus claim that they've "won" the debate regardless of what actually happens or how it goes.

Umberto Eco, who grew up under Mussolini, described what he called "the cult of action for the sake of action" as one of the symptoms of fascism or proto-fascism. To fascists, debate, conversation or reason are automatically signs of effeminacy and weakness. Everything is a crisis requiring immediate action and agreement (in intellectual and scientific circles, disagreement is celebrated as a way of testing and improving human knowledge - to fascists, disagreement is treason).

I don't think Jontron is a fascist, he seems more like an idiot, but he's pandering to an audience with pretty clear protofascist tendancies. There's a "crisis" or "invasion" going on. Anyone who disagrees is weak, effeminate or a traitor to their own race, nation or people. Intellectualism, including the practice of reasoned academic debate, is automatically distrusted as a sign of cultural degeneracy which leaves culture weak and open to subversion. What matters is not countering arguments or demonstrating the factual basis of your claims, but merely stating their urgency and the immediate necessity of acting.

That, to some people, is enough to constitute "winning" the debate.

 

[Queen Michael]

"We've gotten rid of discrimination in our western countries. If you don't think we've gotten rid of discrimination, you're living in a fantasy land."

...Was he high saying this? No, really--was he?

Does he think that out of the billions of people living in "our western countries," not a single one ever gets discriminated? Really?

 

[Zontar]

N

"Wealthy Blacks commit more crimes than poor whites, thats a fact."

This is true

"They're [whites] are not being killed, they're being displaced. You are the same guy who says that Europeans displaced the native Americans but apparently, when other people do it to white Americans, it's okay because fuck white people."

This is actively celebrated by people

"Why is it when the chinese were trying to colonise tibet, why was that a save tibet situation but when it's white people... I'm using an analogy to try to give a parallel situation so you can see the hypocrisy."

He's not wrong about him being a hypocrite

"I don't recall Trump ever saying anything explicitly racist."

Despite fake news attempts to make Islam and illegal immigrants a race most people are aware of the fact that no, a religion and a specific criminal act is not a race.

"We've gotten rid of discrimination in our western countries. If you don't think we've gotten rid of discrimination, you're living in a fantasy land."

While hyperbolic, it's closer to reality then the picture progressives pretend is the case.

The whole thing was a mess and it seemed like Jon was woefully unprepared for this "debate".

Yes Destiny got his ass wooped. Then again this is a guy who ducked out of a twitter discussion with Naked Ape because he didn't think that a gay conservative would be ready for a debate.

Destiny can't handle the bants and JonTron isn't racist.

 

[Zontar]

Does he think that out of the billions of people living in "our western countries," not a single one ever gets discriminated? Really?

The Western world is only 810 million people, unless you count the Southern Cone and Brazil, in which case it's just a singular billion.

That being said, while people do still face discrimination (especially in the US where it's practically mandated against whites and Asians) Jon's statement is much closer to reality then what modern progressivism pretend it is. He's wrong, but he's not as wrong as most of those pretending his statement is some great rejection of reality. We still have people who believe the patriarchy is real in the West or that white privilege is a thing despite how neither is something someone who hasn't spent the totality of their professional career is the halls of a social 'science' wing of a university instead of in the real world where those hypothesise are shattered in minutes of observation.

 

[Wrex Brogan]

Yeah, I saw this on Reddit and... whew boy. Jon really should've stuck to just making videos, whenever he starts throwing his hat into political opinions he tends to... fuck everything up horrendously for everyone. The JonTron subreddit in particular has had a rather... collective realization about the whole thing.

[sub]then again, you associate with shitheads like Sargon you kinda should expect this kind of shit going down...[/sub]

As for this thread... *looks at current replies*

This is going to be some fine discourse.

 

[Bob_McMillan]

Ooohhhh boy. Stick to what you're good at man.

 

[Story]

I also saw this on Reddit and even prior to this interview there have been some questions on Jon's political stances. His interview with Brietbait or whatever it's called for example. His fan base are surprised from what I gathered for it seems before the last year or so Jon was considered rather centrist in his views.

There was also someone on Escapist that seemed pretty upset with his turn around. I feel for them.

As for myself this situation is a resounding: "Whatever". I don't watch his videos might have done so once or twice years ago. I have not read/watched/listen to anything related to Jon's political views expect for things said secound hand (like in this thread) but it's enough to insure I continue to ignore him.

Also agreeing with Wred Brogen above that this thread should be an interesting read at least.

 

[Zontar]

Ooohhhh boy. Stick to what you're good at man.

Just because you disagree with him doesn't mean he isn't right about what he's talking about.

Relevant:

 

[Queen Michael]

Does he think that out of the billions of people living in "our western countries," not a single one ever gets discriminated? Really?

The Western world is only 810 million people, unless you count the Southern Cone and Brazil, in which case it's just a singular billion.

That being said, while people do still face discrimination (especially in the US where it's practically mandated against whites and Asians) Jon's statement is much closer to reality then what modern progressivism pretend it is. He's wrong, but he's not as wrong as most of those pretending his statement is some great rejection of reality. We still have people who believe the patriarchy is real in the West or that white privilege is a thing despite how neither is something someone who hasn't spent the totality of their professional career is the halls of a social 'science' wing of a university instead of in the real world where those hypothesise are shattered in minutes of observation.

My mistake with the numbers. Still, that's hundreds, and hundreds, and hundreds, and additional hundreds of millions of people, and I think we can agree it's ridiculous of JonTron to claim that not a single one of them is being discriminated against. Especially since he's claiming that whites are being displaced, which counts as a form of discrimination.

It's Orwellian double-think to the extreme. "Discrimination against American whites is real, and must be stopped! Also, if you think discrimination still happens in the western world, you're crazy. We must stop discrimination, even though it doesn't happen!"

And even if discrimination had stopped completely, how could JonTron claim to know that for sure? Has he gone through every hiring process in every company in the USA to make sure no minority applicants were treated unfairly?

I don't think that deep down, JonTron actually believes that B.S. about discrimination being gone. It's probably just a thing he wants to believe. He likes to think of himself as a person who doesn't buy into the myth of discrimination, but if he were to be honest with himself he'd admit that it's real.

It's kind of like this woman who wrote a hilariously bad New Age book I found at the public library the other day. She said she believed in unicorns and mermaids, but it didn't seem like she actually believed in them as things that really existed and might show up outside your door. She just liked to regard herself as a person who had enough sense of childhood left to believe in unicorns. She didn't actually think they existed, regardless of what she might tell her readers (and herself).

 

[Story]

Don't mind me, I'm just waiting for the hypocritical comments made by the people that were arguing to "Separate the art from the artist" barely months ago.

Out of curiosity when was that? Was it a general discussion on "Separating the Art from the Artist" or was it about a particular instance?

 

[Zontar]

He likes to think of himself as a person who doesn't buy into the myth of discrimination, but if he were to be honest with himself he'd admit that it's real.

I think the problem is mostly captured here, not in the fact that he doesn't seem to believe that discrimination isn't a thing, but that from the looks of it the alternative many are pushing is the opposite extreme: that it's still around as though Jim Crow was still a thing, that it's worst today then it was in the past, that patriarchy and privilege hypothesis (I'm not going to pretend it's a theory because it's Intelligent Design tier and would sully the name) are a thing, that equality before the law isn't a thing, that systemic oppression is still a thing.

With how frequent and loud you can hear people in ivory towers who've never set food outside their gated communities cry about these things, for a guy on the street it doesn't take much to shrug and say "that's all bullshit", which is made all the worst because 1) by virtue of being much closer to the truth then what those in the ivory towers cry it makes it far easier to believe, and 2) it makes the cases of actual problems harder to actually deal with because people aren't inclined to believe it's happening since if 99% of cases are the boy crying wolf why give the time of day to the other 1%?

JonTron is unquestioningly wrong in that one singular statement, but it should be remembered that many of those rallying against him have no place to do so given how equally or greater they are in terms of their detachment from reality on the subject.

 

[Zontar]

Don't mind me, I'm just waiting for the hypocritical comments made by the people that were arguing to "Separate the art from the artist" barely months ago.

Out of curiosity when was that? Was it a general discussion on "Separating the Art from the Artist" or was it about a particular instance?

I've seen it brought up a handful of times around these parts, the most recent one that I remember was Tim Schafer when the Psychonauts 2 Kickstarter came up (I'm having a genuine hard time finding the thread but I do remember it happening); Before that I've seen it brought up with Manveer Heir (ME: Andromeda), Amber Scott (Baldur's Gate), Feargus Urquhart (Pillars of Eternity) and Phil Fish (Fez).

Wait, are you telling me that people who agreed with radical views from artists that alligned with their own they stated one should see the art and artist as separate entities, only for this no longer to be true for an artist who's mostly moderate views do not match their own?

How could this possibly be the case?

 

[PapaGreg096]

1.

"Wealthy Blacks commit more crimes than poor whites, thats a fact."

This is true

Where did you get that fact from

"They're [whites] are not being killed, they're being displaced. You are the same guy who says that Europeans displaced the native Americans but apparently, when other people do it to white Americans, it's okay because fuck white people."

This is actively celebrated by people

Give me an example of people displacing white Americans similar to white Americans displacing Native Americans.

 

[Story]

Don't mind me, I'm just waiting for the hypocritical comments made by the people that were arguing to "Separate the art from the artist" barely months ago.

Out of curiosity when was that? Was it a general discussion on "Separating the Art from the Artist" or was it about a particular instance?

I've seen it brought up a handful of times around these parts, the most recent one that I remember was Tim Schafer when the Psychonauts 2 Kickstarter came up (I'm having a genuine hard time finding the thread but I do remember it happening); Before that I've seen it brought up with Manveer Heir (ME: Andromeda), Amber Scott (Baldur's Gate), Feargus Urquhart (Pillars of Eternity) and Phil Fish (Fez).

Cool thanks I'm unfamiliar with most of these. That is a fair point and I agree it can be pretty hypocritical. I struggle with that too.

However I think it becomes easier to separate people from their work when said work feels distant from their views. And consequently, when they overlap it becomes less hard. You aren't seeing the political views/behavior of Phil Fish in the game Fez itself for example. While a Youtuber I recently unsubbed from had his views well known in some of his content as it was brought up in jokes or discussions ect.

This point was brought up while I was reading the JonTron's subreddit. Appearently a lot of the fans are struggling with separating Jon's work with his political views because even if they aren't outright stated, Jon's work relies partly on the viewer relating to him and having a personal connection with him. Sounds silly, but it was an interesting grievance I thought.

Also, to re enforce your point on inconstancy, not all issues are treated the same. I think people are less likely to separate the art from the artist of someone feels too strongly against the views of the artist. As a personal example, I won't unsub from someone who thinks Steam Greenlight should be kept because I don't feel strongly enough about the issue but I will unsub from someone who justifies doxxing because that is an issue I feel very strongly about. If that makes sense.

Basically I'm agreeing that treating "separate artist from art" as an absolute is a mistake and will make someone hypocritical. But that's a fallacy, I think it's okay to have exceptions.

 

[Zontar]

Where did you get that fact from

The FBI given the conviction rate based on race and cross-referenced with income. Unless there's a massive conspiracy that no one has been able to uncover the existence of, rich black young men are marginally more likely to commit a crime then poor white men are.

Give me an example of people displacing white Americans similar to white Americans displacing Native Americans.

Well first and foremost would be mass immigration. Hell in a move that makes the claim that the left is inherently educated have no basis in reality, when Ann Coulter and Cenk Uygur had their debate a few years back and one of them mentioned whites becoming a minority in the US if trends don't change, the mostly liberal crowed applauded because apparently the stereotype of the American who never looks beyond his country's boarders is true given the state of Brazil and South Africa.

Add to that the fact this colonisation is being done at our own expense no less, with the vast majority of those coming in through mass immigration being life long net drains on our welfare states, especially in places like Germany and Sweden, and you then on top of it all have progressives spend a few decades actively creating a white identity through the use of their identity politics, this all culminates in the only logical response you could imagine with these factors at play: native whites are (not incorrectly) perceiving this as colonisation of their lands at their own expense. This just happens to be the first time in history such an act is happening without a war having been lost.

The worst part of it all is, given how the Western world uses a democratic model, and people will vote in their self interest, the right wing swing we're seeing across the West is only going to continue until the problem is solved one way or another. With socialist parties choosing the peace in our time route, that terrifies me since I actually paid attention in history class.

 

[Zontar]

Appearently a lot of the fans are struggling with separating Jon's work with his political views because even if they aren't outright stated

I'd wait a week or two before taking anything on r/jontron as being from his fans. The place is currently being brigaded by people who are new, and I can't for the life of me believe that so many people who claim to have been lurkers are suddenly posting about the same general thing at the same time while never having posted before.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I bet Arin and Danny are glad they dodged that bullet.

Aaaaaaaaaaaand weeeeeeeeee're the Safe Grumps!