So Biden-Haters: why Trump over Biden?

[Seanchaidh]

But one candidate wants to increase the corporate tax rate by 7%. The other candidate doesn't. Are these the same?

One candidate wants to create a public healthcare option available to all, and introduce a lower limit on the cost of healthcare received. The other candidate doesn't, and only promises to cut 10% from the budget of the existing medicare options. Are these the same? Look at them closely, because thousands of lives depend on which one fucking wins.

One candidate wants a ban on fossil fuel subsidies and net-zero emissions by 2050, and readmission to the Paris Accords. The other candidate doesn't, and has only repealed environmental protection and expanded fossil fuel subsidies. Are these the same? Again, thousands of lives depend on which one wins.

One candidate claims he'll end the Federal use of private prisons. The other doesn't. Are these the same? Thousands of lives... etc, etc.

You can add one more to the list:

One candidate is a pathological liar. The other is also a pathological liar.

They don't represent meaningful difference in terms of endemic, systemic economic issues in American society. They're still obviously-- to anybody paying attention-- hugely different, and those differences mean tens of thousands of lives and innumerable livelihoods. You do not ignore that in order to gamble on the idea that at some mythical future point, people will somehow become so sick of right-wing fuckwittery that they'll finally elect a Bernie Sanders. Even if they did, how many lives will have been lost in those decades waiting? How can any moral person willingly accept that cost, if they claim to want the best for people? And what kind of blasted hellscape would that future (hypothetical) good President even inherit?

How many lives will have been lost to bipartisan policy in that same time period? Capitulating to the two-party dynamic is neither necessary nor particularly desirable.

 

[Silvanus]

How many lives will have been lost to bipartisan policy in that same time period?

That demonstrably depends on the ruling party, which is precisely my point.

 

[Seanchaidh]

That demonstrably depends on the ruling party, which is precisely my point.

Does it, though? You're conflating campaign promises with policy outcomes.

 

[Avnger]

Capitulating to the two-party dynamic is neither necessary nor particularly desirable.

The two-party dynamic is reality. Whether you wish to "capitulate" or not, it currently rules the American political system at a national (and nearly universally state-wide) level and has done so since the Constitution's ratification over 200 years ago. Whining on social media won't change that.

 

[Worgen]

One candidate is a pathological liar. The other is also a pathological liar.

So how has Biden been a pathological liar? We know how trump is but how is Biden lying about every single little thing? For your assertion to be anywhere near true you need to list at least 5 instances.

How many lives will have been lost to bipartisan policy in that same time period? Capitulating to the two-party dynamic is neither necessary nor particularly desirable.

Oh you poor sweet innocent babe, the two party system is built into how we do voting, there is no way out of it unless we completely change how we do elections, its just how things are. The two party system isn't built into our system it just developed naturally as an unexpected result.

 

[Worgen]

The important part:
"The Medicare for All Act will provide comprehensive health care to every man, woman and child in our country -- without out-of-pocket expenses. No more insurance premiums, deductibles or co-payments. Further, this bill improves Medicare coverage to include dental, hearing and vision care. In other words, this plan would do exactly what should be done in a civilized and democratic society. It would allow all Americans, regardless of their income, to get the health care they need when they need it"

While that would be nice, it would also have a really hard time getting passed, we would go from having pretty much no national healthcare to having the most generous health care of any country. Probably politically unachievable even if Bernie ended up winning. Start with medicare for all, get people used to that then you can expand it, I don't understand why people are so against moving forward to what they want and just demand everything they want or nothing at all. Half a bowl of ice cream is better then no bowl of ice cream.

 

[tippy2k2]

While that would be nice, it would also have a really hard time getting passed, we would go from having pretty much no national healthcare to having the most generous health care of any country. Probably politically unachievable even if Bernie ended up winning. Start with medicare for all, get people used to that then you can expand it, I don't understand why people are so against moving forward to what they want and just demand everything they want or nothing at all. Half a bowl of ice cream is better then no bowl of ice cream.

Easy, because every time the Democrats move an inch forward, Republicans then take a mile back. Then democrats retake an inch later and celebrate like they won.

I don't want everything, I want a basic health care system like basically every other First World Country in the world (I'm saying basically only because I am not familiar with every single First World Countries Health Care system). The middle of a global pandemic seems like a great time to try to push for this kind of shit (especially given how popular it is with the voters) but the DNC once again demonstrates why they're not a "Party of the People" as they like to put it.

When one in four people don't go to the doctor's office because it is too expensive, fuck begging for the DNCs crumbs. The DNC can support a measure that people want and demonstrates that they are actually a party for the common man as they claim or they can sit and spin.

Joe Biden can get on board with M4A or I'm going to vote for someone who is on board. It's as simple as that.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

So how has Biden been a pathological liar? We know how trump is but how is Biden lying about every single little thing? For your assertion to be anywhere near true you need to list at least 5 instances.

Only 5?

Lies, damned lies and the truth about Joe Biden

As Biden denies alleged misdeeds related to General Flynn, to his son Hunter’s involvement in Ukraine or to Tara Reade, his history of bending the truth is informative.

thehill.com

Just in this one article:

He and Obama didn't lock kids in cages (they did)
Was against the Iraq war (he wasn't)
He's one of the most liberal members of congress (laughable, unless he means classically liberal, which is to say non-interference with corporations)
He went to law school on a full scholarship (He didn't)
He graduated in the top half of his class (76/85)
He was an outstanding student in his undergrad courses (he wasn't)
He plagiarized other people's speeches, passing off their lives as his
He became a professor (he didn't)
He went to Afganistan to honor a navy vet (he didn't)
He says he got arrested trying to visit Nelson Mandela (No)
He tried to say he was a civil rights activist (hilarious)
He co-sponsored the Endangered Species Act (nope)

Something else he shares with Trump is bursting out on tirades whenever he doesn't like what someone says, he has a real hair trigger temper.

 

[Worgen]

Easy, because every time the Democrats move an inch forward, Republicans then take a mile back. Then democrats retake an inch later and celebrate like they won.

I don't want everything, I want a basic health care system like basically every other First World Country in the world (I'm saying basically only because I am not familiar with every single First World Countries Health Care system). The middle of a global pandemic seems like a great time to try to push for this kind of shit (especially given how popular it is with the voters) but the DNC once again demonstrates why they're not a "Party of the People" as they like to put it.

When one in four people don't go to the doctor's office because it is too expensive, fuck begging for the DNCs crumbs. The DNC can support a measure that people want and demonstrates that they are actually a party for the common man as they claim or they can sit and spin.

Joe Biden can get on board with M4A or I'm going to vote for someone who is on board. It's as simple as that.

Well, as I said, you won't get shit with the republicans, but Biden does support it and the national mood for it might finally be at the point where we can pass something. If Biden loses then we end up with more trump who sure as hell won't give us any kind of comprehensive health care and by the time his next term is over this covid thing will be gone and forgotten so we still probably won't get it. If you think this won't be forgotten then do you remember back when Australia caught fire? Seems like years ago even though it was just a few months ago.

 

[tippy2k2]

Well, as I said, you won't get shit with the republicans, but Biden does support it and the national mood for it might finally be at the point where we can pass something. If Biden loses then we end up with more trump who sure as hell won't give us any kind of comprehensive health care and by the time his next term is over this covid thing will be gone and forgotten so we still probably won't get it. If you think this won't be forgotten then do you remember back when Australia caught fire? Seems like years ago even though it was just a few months ago.

Biden suggests he would veto 'Medicare for All' over its price tag

"I would veto anything that delays providing the security and the certainty of health care being available now," Biden said.

www.cnbc.com

“Nancy Pelosi gets a version of it through the House of Representatives. It comes to your desk. Do you veto it?” MSNBC host Lawrence O’Donnell asked Biden during an interview Monday night.

“I would veto anything that delays providing the security and the certainty of health care being available now,” Biden responded. “If they got that through in by some miracle or there’s an epiphany that occurred and some miracle occurred that said, ‘OK, it’s passed,’ then you got to look at the cost.”

Biden added: “I want to know, how did they find $35 trillion? What is that doing? Is it going to significantly raise taxes on the middle class, which it will? What’s going to happen?”

He's got a funny way of saying he supports it

But hey, if he supports it as you stated, he should have no problem coming out tomorrow and saying "I would support M4A". As soon as he says that he would support M4A (and the Sanders version, not some BS Obamacare slightly expanded version), he will have my vote. If he does not support M4A, I will give my vote to someone who does.

 

[Worgen]

Biden suggests he would veto 'Medicare for All' over its price tag

"I would veto anything that delays providing the security and the certainty of health care being available now," Biden said.

www.cnbc.com

“Nancy Pelosi gets a version of it through the House of Representatives. It comes to your desk. Do you veto it?” MSNBC host Lawrence O’Donnell asked Biden during an interview Monday night.

“I would veto anything that delays providing the security and the certainty of health care being available now,” Biden responded. “If they got that through in by some miracle or there’s an epiphany that occurred and some miracle occurred that said, ‘OK, it’s passed,’ then you got to look at the cost.”

Biden added: “I want to know, how did they find $35 trillion? What is that doing? Is it going to significantly raise taxes on the middle class, which it will? What’s going to happen?”

He's got a funny way of saying he supports it

But hey, if he supports it as you stated, he should have no problem coming out tomorrow and saying "I would support M4A". As soon as he says that he would support M4A (and the Sanders version, not some BS Obamacare slightly expanded version), he will have my vote. If he does not support M4A, I will give my vote to someone who does.

The funny thing is, he actually says why he would right in your quote there. He says he would veto it if there wasn't away to pay for it, some politicians actually like to balance the books and it doesn't help as much as you think if costs just totally run out of control. Plus, I linked his website earlier, he says he is in favor of Medicare for all as competition for private insurance on top of expanding the ACA. Really we just have to wait till the debates since this will be a topic.

 

[tippy2k2]

The funny thing is, he actually says why he would right in your quote there. He says he would veto it if there wasn't away to pay for it, some politicians actually like to balance the books and it doesn't help as much as you think if costs just totally run out of control. Plus, I linked his website earlier, he says he is in favor of Medicare for all as competition for private insurance on top of expanding the ACA. Really we just have to wait till the debates since this will be a topic.

And I'm not willing to wait for his wishy washy half-assed bullshit fix. No one in any First World Country should ever not go to the doctor for medical treatment because it cost too much (let alone all the people who have to file Bankruptcy for having the audacity to get cancer).

So come debates, if he wants my vote, he can earn it by saying "I would support M4A" (and again, the Sanders version not some half-assed Obama-Care "You get Health Insurance but it will bankrupt you if you have to use it")

Anything less than that and I'm out. Maybe he can get enough votes without people like me but the "Orange Man Bad" strategy of 2016 didn't go as planned so I don't see why they expect 2020s "Orange Bad Man" strategy to work. Maybe enough people now think that so it's enough and he'll be good but it's up to Biden and The DNC to determine if they want to take that chance.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

Plus, I linked his website earlier, he says he is in favor of Medicare for all as competition for private insurance on top of expanding the ACA.

Sounds a lot like "I'm totally in favor of whatever you're in favor of, please vote for me" rather than an actual stance.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Sounds a lot like "I'm totally in favor of whatever you're in favor of, please vote for me" rather than an actual stance.

"Medicare for all who want it" is a transparent excuse to set up a gutted Medicare program to fail so that people stop asking for M4A.

 

[Worgen]

And I'm not willing to wait for his wishy washy half-assed bullshit fix. No one in any First World Country should ever not go to the doctor for medical treatment because it cost too much (let alone all the people who have to file Bankruptcy for having the audacity to get cancer).

So come debates, if he wants my vote, he can earn it by saying "I would support M4A" (and again, the Sanders version not some half-assed Obama-Care "You get Health Insurance but it will bankrupt you if you have to use it")

Anything less than that and I'm out. Maybe he can get enough votes without people like me but the "Orange Man Bad" strategy of 2016 didn't go as planned so I don't see why they expect 2020s "Orange Bad Man" strategy to work. Maybe enough people now think that so it's enough and he'll be good but it's up to Biden and The DNC to determine if they want to take that chance.

See, I really don't get this. Why are you ok with waiting another 4 years for something rather then getting something that will get you much closer to your goal now? I mean if we get medicare for all and its not quite what you want, we would still have it and things can be added to it.

 

[Worgen]

Sounds a lot like "I'm totally in favor of whatever you're in favor of, please vote for me" rather than an actual stance.

Welcome to what good politics is, that means it doesn't really matter if a politician believes in something, what matters is if he makes that happen because his or her constituents want it. I mean Obama and Biden might not have believed in gay marriage but they still made it happen just by not opposing it.

 

[Seanchaidh]

So how has Biden been a pathological liar?

You're seriously asking?

I mean, OK.

Lies, damned lies and the truth about Joe Biden

As Biden denies alleged misdeeds related to General Flynn, to his son Hunter’s involvement in Ukraine or to Tara Reade, his history of bending the truth is informative.

thehill.com

Biden’s 1987 campaign foundered also because he was caught lifting passages of a speech given by Neil Kinnock. Biden echoed (falsely) the British Labor leader’s history that he was the first "in a thousand generations" to graduate from college and repeated virtually verbatim the same story about his wife, just as Kinnock had.

Then there was the inspiring tale of visiting Afghanistan to honor a heroic naval officer. Biden described the officer’s actions in detail, adding, “This is God’s truth, my word as a Biden.” But according to a review in the Washington Post, no such incident occurred. Biden was lucky not to be hit by lightning.

"The God's truth, my word as a Biden" means less than shit.


These aren't the only lies. He also likes to lie about his political record.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

Welcome to what good politics is, that means it doesn't really matter if a politician believes in something, what matters is if he makes that happen because his or her constituents want it. I mean Obama and Biden might not have believed in gay marriage but they still made it happen just by not opposing it.

There's a difference between allowing sometime to happen by inaction versus having to actively pursue something.

Allowing gay marriage to happen by simply not standing against it is really easy and doesn't cost anything. Even if they didn't believe in it they didn't have to actively DO anything to make it happen.

The logistics of figuring out how to completely revamp the healthcare industry, budgeting for it, and fighting insurance companies is HARD. It's so hard that I don't believe that someone who doesn't actively believe in it is going to be willing to spend an absolute shitload of their time actively doing it.

If someone WANTS to do something, they'll spend their time pursuing it even if it's hard. If someone is just telling people what they want to hear they'll make every excuse not to do it.

 

[Worgen]

There's a difference between allowing sometime to happen by inaction versus having to actively pursue something.

Allowing gay marriage to happen by simply not standing against it is really easy and doesn't cost anything. Even if they didn't believe in it they didn't have to actively DO anything to make it happen.

The logistics of figuring out how to completely revamp the healthcare industry, budgeting for it, and fighting insurance companies is HARD. It's so hard that I don't believe that someone who doesn't actively believe in it is going to be willing to spend an absolute shitload of their time actively doing it.

If someone WANTS to do something, they'll spend their time pursuing it even if it's hard. If someone is just telling people what they want to hear they'll make every excuse not to do it.

Then you are arguing that a side that actively opposes a healthcare for all is better?

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

Then you are arguing that a side that actively opposes a healthcare for all is better?

No, both sides are shit. Just because I don't have any faith in Biden doesn't mean I'm endorsing Trump.

You're arguing that Biden is going to do the right thing because his constituents want him to do the right thing, and I disagree. I think that's incredibly naive. History is littered with broken campaign promises, and this is another one.

Scratch that, this isn't even a campaign promise. Biden has been wishy washy on the subject in every way. You're just putting the words you want to hear in his mouth because you really want a reason to actually want to vote for him.