So Biden-Haters: why Trump over Biden?

lil devils x

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Yes, by expanding medicare to cover all medical costs and prescriptions. That's the big hole in medicare and having such a massive base of people with which to negotiate prescription drug prices instead of dozens of small companies with basically no government bargaining is an instant fix in that regard.

But Biden is very specifically against solutions like this and very much pro putting people into debt for his industry friends, so no to Biden. He can't be helpful.
We have had progressives in congress trying to expand on that for generations now, they have not been able to do so, they cannot get enough votes to pass those measures, so how can we expand it when we cannot even manage to fix it?

Though it should be pointed out that no healthcare system in the world actually covers " ALL" medical costs, as "ALL" medical procedures are not even considered reasonable or necessary and thus why we have to determine what is and is not reasonable or necessary otherwise there is no way we could actually afford to maintain such a healthcare system. What we can and cannot afford is what is being debated, and republicans have unanimously determined that we cannot afford even our current costs and are actively trying to reduce them, thus why we cannot manage to get even the smallest expansions approved in a conservative heavy congress. The ONLY way we have been able to get medicare and medicaid expansions passed in the past have been through managing to get some conservatives on board as well, which has proven to be extremely difficult and involve heavy bribes. In the current partisan environment however, that is a near impossible task as any Republican that has supported such measures is often run out of office by their own party.

The BIGGEST difference between the two parties is there is only ONE party that has progressives or progressive agendas in it at all.
 
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Silvanus

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But it's what he's doing now. The party platform as written is a total about-face on Biden's record. If you're saying that it's ludicrous that someone could flip their entire political activity between what they say and what they do, we have to ask "so why do you believe Biden?"
No, this is simply exaggeration. As I've been encouraging before (without gaining much traction), look at specific policy rather than talking in broad sweeping terms.

The platform on environmental regulation is in line with his record, honestly. He's introduced environmental protection legislation to Congress as early as the 80s, and sponsored bills proposed by Sanders on climate change. He's supported supports on carbon production before. So, no, the idea that he'll just renege on all this and do exactly what the Republicans would do is not supported by his record.

The platform on healthcare would clearly be going quite a bit further than anything he's supported before. In the Senate, he several times voted opposing expansions of the existing medicare programme. However, he also voted in favour of various rebates & cost-lowering measures during that time. The election platform also builds on the existing ACA. So the party platform this time around is not fully in line with his record, no; but his record is also substantially better than the average Republican's. He's never voted for such enormous roll-backs as Trump is proposing (10% cut). So, again, the idea that they will do the same thing is not supported by the record. But you're presuming he'll not only renege, but introduce enormous cuts? That's what would be necessary in order to make the Republican and Democratic positions equivalent-- it involves so many leaps of assumption.

One area that I specifically mentioned that does not reflect his record is the private prisons thing. He's now saying he'll end federal use of private prisons, despite being involved in expanding that very complex (and incentivising incarceration). So yes, that would be an about-turn.

Keep in mind: you need to believe not only that he will renege, but that a Democratic Congress will pretty uniformly renege as well, including Sanders' and Warren's delegates.
 
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Agema

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Your WW2 stat seems silly. If Covid has a .05% mortality rate among those over 65 that show symptoms of it
Covid-19 doesn't have a mortality rate (technically, "infection fatality rate") of 0.05% in over-65s, though. It's estimated about 10 times that just for the general population. For the over-65s, it has a mortality rate at ~5%. The mortality rate of US servicemen in WW2 was ~1%.

1. See above. A soverieng has the power to decide upon anything, good or bad.
Sounds a bit authoritarian to me.

3. Can I think a war worth fighting, even if many, averaging 19 may die? How about contintued Alaskan fishing? It is one of the most dangerous jobs there is. By allowing it, are we consigning some to die?
Nobody has to fish in Alaska, and they don't put other people at risk (except maybe rescue services) by doing so.

I do not know. I'm very worried. We were to flatten the curve. I got a hair cut. As the emergency beds became unused and things were not as bad as predicted, the barber got shut down. Then when the wave should have been over, I was ordered to wear a mask outside. This seems nuts.
Is your right not to have to wear a mask more important than someone else's life?

Even if everything you write is true, as things were getting better where I live and our projections did not come close to coming true, the lock down rules got more, not less extreme. And now, National Mail in Voting, the best known way to engage in voter fraud through actions like vote harvesting, is at the top of the discussion. The "never let a good crisis go to waste" people truly appear to be on the move and people that love freedom and prosperity should be greatly concerned.
These would be the claims of voter fraud almost entirely indefensible by any established evidence?
 

Seanchaidh

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The bottom line is that voting for Joe Biden signals to Democrats that they can take my vote for granted. I don't know if not voting for their shitty candidates will cause them to become less shitty (or to collapse and make way for a new party), but I do know that voting for them won't cause that (or the other).

Any candidate or party is electable if people vote for it. So this time around I'll probably be voting Green.

Keep in mind: you need to believe not only that he will renege, but that a Democratic Congress will pretty uniformly renege as well, including Sanders' and Warren's delegates.
Er, what do you mean by that?
 
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gorfias

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I dunno guys. Really.

Wife just now told me she is to work from home until September. Sure she is dancing around the house like she is in "Risky Business" but this just seems so weird as we're told in our region things just are far better than we thought they would be when a modest lock down began last March.

Anyhow, I'm guessing you both are sold on Biden, regardless. Getting rid of Trump would be your priority and Biden will be less bad than him anyway? It makes sense if that is your political persuasion.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
This is fair. I also find them annoying. It's much better for you to vote for the racist, homophobic rapist. Much less annoying.
If trump was less of the worst president we have ever had then that might be the case but at this point I think hes managed to overtake Woodrow Wilson as our worst... or is at least pretty close to Wilson by now.

Hmm. I haven't seen him say anywhere that he wants Trump re-elected. You are making a rather massive assumption in saying he wants Trump re-elected. Are you sure you aren't letting feelings cloud your judgement?
Of course he doesn't directly say it, he instead goes off about how the democrats and Biden are the most horrible thing that ever horribled a thing.

I suppose then, you will be fine if in the future people are glad Biden lost for any reason, even if illegitimate, like, say,. spite
Sure people could say that, but if he loses since he won the nomination, then I'm going to say they are trump supporters and treat them in kind cause as far as I see if, thats how they are behaving, doing everything they can to stop people from voting for a democrat since its not Bernie.

Damn, do you think he's a russian plant as well?
It would be the kinda thing they would do, just plant someone who claims to be undecided then have him just constantly shit on one side and not the other.
 
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Hades

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No one can force you to vote for Biden despite knowing the alternative is far worse. However no one can force others to think very positively of throwing a hissyfit and surrendering the country to Trump just because the Democrats voted to have a candidate that doesn't meet your ideological purity test. This isn't even about Republicans being worse then Democrats. This is about Trump himself being uniquely bad and his devotion to democracy being extremely questionable at best.

Putin, Erdogan, Orban, the Polish PIS party. Every time a politician of Trump's breed gets allowed to stay in power for extended periods of time they use that power to try and abolish democracy. And Trump neatly follows in their footsteps with his demonization of the media and justice system. Right now America's institution are too powerful for any populist strongman to dismantle but by putting Trump in office for another term you risk this no longer being the case.
 

Neuromancer

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Of course he doesn't directly say it, he instead goes off about how the democrats and Biden are the most horrible thing that ever horribled a thing.
Have the three threads in which you've had back and forths not been about Democrats? Is it not topical to talk about Biden in a thread about Biden? Have the discussions not continuously been incessant nagging about why he should vote Biden anyway and him trying to justify why he won't?

Sure people could say that, but if he loses since he won the nomination, then I'm going to say they are trump supporters and treat them in kind cause as far as I see if, thats how they are behaving, doing everything they can to stop people from voting for a democrat since its not Bernie.
Trying to stop, you say? I am pretty sure that stating why they won't vote for him does not constitute trying to stop others from voting for Biden. Morally blackmailing anyone into voting for a candidate they don't wish to support does not make for a healthy democracy. But when was that the concern, right?

It would be the kinda thing they would do, just plant someone who claims to be undecided then have him just constantly shit on one side and not the other.
It's the perfect storm. Just call someone a plant to delegitimize them. Who needs arguments when you can just call anyone that opposes you a Trump supporter or Russian plant? Don't attack the argument, attack the person. Spread some more of that cold war paranoia.It's how your governments got rid of political dissenters in years past, keep that tradition going.


Does he criticize Biden or the Democrats while saying he hates both sides? He might be a Russian plant!
 
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Buyetyen

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Have the three threads in which you've had back and forths not been about Democrats? Is it not topical to talk about Biden in a thread about Biden? Have the discussions not continuously been incessant nagging about why he should vote Biden anyway and him trying to justify why he won't?
Clarity in one's argument is good to have, but largely superficial if the argument itself isn't very good.
 

Schadrach

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it still would not happen in the next 4 years due to the conservative gains in congress
Are you expecting the GOP to flip the house, or just to lose less than 4 seats in the Senate?

Because if the GOP fails to flip the House (likely) and loses 4 or more seats in Senate (possible, but not guaranteed) there is literally nothing preventing the Dems from pushing their agenda through as completely as they want. That "as they want" is key there. They won't do nearly as much as their supporters hope, and will pretend that's because they are unable to do so. As usual.
 

Neuromancer

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Clarity in one's argument is good to have, but largely superficial if the argument itself isn't very good.
If the argument isn't very good, then it should be easily epistemologically counterable, and there shouldn't be a need to resort to questioning a person's political allegiance and accusing them of having a false one. Personal attacks are the last refuge of the desperate in an argument.
 
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SupahEwok

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Are you expecting the GOP to flip the house, or just to lose less than 4 seats in the Senate?

Because if the GOP fails to flip the House (likely) and loses 4 or more seats in Senate (possible, but not guaranteed) there is literally nothing preventing the Dems from pushing their agenda through as completely as they want. That "as they want" is key there. They won't do nearly as much as their supporters hope, and will pretend that's because they are unable to do so. As usual.
*looks at 2008*

 

SupahEwok

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If the argument isn't very good, then it should be easily epistemologically counterable, and there shouldn't be a need to resort to questioning a person's political allegiance and accusing them of having a false one. Personal attacks are the last refuge of the desperate in an argument.
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And you're a horrible person for demanding anything else of your representatives for your vote, despite that being exactly how representative democracy works.
 

Buyetyen

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If the argument isn't very good, then it should be easily epistemologically counterable, and there shouldn't be a need to resort to questioning a person's political allegiance and accusing them of having a false one. Personal attacks are the last refuge of the desperate in an argument.
Just because someone repeats an argument does not mean that wasn't countered. Just that they repeated it. Bottom line, the reason many people continue repeating arguments over and over and over again despite having no credibility is because they haven't thought about it very hard.
 

Neuromancer

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Just because someone repeats an argument does not mean that wasn't countered. Just that they repeated it. Bottom line, the reason many people continue repeating arguments over and over and over again despite having no credibility is because they haven't thought about it very hard.
I agree, the "but Trump" argument has gotten old, and indeed, most of the people that utilize it have not thought too hard, and enjoy whitewashing and ignoring a lot of policy in past years.

Trump was not the start of the rot. Trump is a culmination of it. The rot started well before Trump, and every president before him, Obama included, propagated it.
 

Buyetyen

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I agree, the "but Trump" argument has gotten old, and indeed, most of the people that utilize it have not thought too hard, and enjoy whitewashing and ignoring a lot of policy in past years.

Trump was not the start of the rot. Trump is a culmination of it. The rot started well before Trump, and every president before him, Obama included, propagated it.
Oh no, I was talking about the people who have said that by voting third party or not at all they're going to be making some kind of meaningful statement instead of just a fart in a moshpit. It is true that the system we've got sucks. But as I've said before, cynicism is a lazy excuse for just giving up or resigning yourself to empty gestures of protest.
 
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Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Have the three threads in which you've had back and forths not been about Democrats? Is it not topical to talk about Biden in a thread about Biden? Have the discussions not continuously been incessant nagging about why he should vote Biden anyway and him trying to justify why he won't?
Yeah and he says the same thing over and over again and it gets really old. Frankly I would have been happy just ignoring him but he keeps butting into my conversations with other people and I feel I have to respond since I'm an idiot.

Trying to stop, you say? I am pretty sure that stating why they won't vote for him does not constitute trying to stop others from voting for Biden. Morally blackmailing anyone into voting for a candidate they don't wish to support does not make for a healthy democracy. But when was that the concern, right?
Trying to stop means that hes trying to find every single thing bad about Biden and almost completely ignoring the threat of trump.

It's the perfect storm. Just call someone a plant to delegitimize them. Who needs arguments when you can just call anyone that opposes you a Trump supporter or Russian plant? Don't attack the argument, attack the person. Spread some more of that cold war paranoia.It's how your governments got rid of political dissenters in years past, keep that tradition going.
Yeah, the funny thing about that is that I see him kinda supporting that kind of thing since we see trump really using those kind of tactics, calling everyone who disagrees with him an enemy, constantly shitting on the press unless they give him hand jobs, doing everything he can to eliminate congressional oversight and attempting to totally fill government with only those that are 100% loyal to him.
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
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We have had progressives in congress trying to expand on that for generations now, they have not been able to do so, they cannot get enough votes to pass those measures, so how can we expand it when we cannot even manage to fix it?

Though it should be pointed out that no healthcare system in the world actually covers " ALL" medical costs, as "ALL" medical procedures are not even considered reasonable or necessary and thus why we have to determine what is and is not reasonable or necessary otherwise there is no way we could actually afford to maintain such a healthcare system. What we can and cannot afford is what is being debated, and republicans have unanimously determined that we cannot afford even our current costs and are actively trying to reduce them, thus why we cannot manage to get even the smallest expansions approved in a conservative heavy congress. The ONLY way we have been able to get medicare and medicaid expansions passed in the past have been through managing to get some conservatives on board as well, which has proven to be extremely difficult and involve heavy bribes. In the current partisan environment however, that is a near impossible task as any Republican that has supported such measures is often run out of office by their own party.

The BIGGEST difference between the two parties is there is only ONE party that has progressives or progressive agendas in it at all.
Just gonna say again, the ACA was passed without any Republican support, only Dems supported it and it was still trash. This is why I don't trust Democrats, you can give them everything and they'll still fuck it up because voting for Republican (D) does not work, they will not do what you think they will, we've seen it happen. Hell, Biden was in the White House when the White House determined to not even have a public option, Dems don't know how to bargain, or rather they're bargaining on behalf of other people, not citizens.

No, this is simply exaggeration. As I've been encouraging before (without gaining much traction), look at specific policy rather than talking in broad sweeping terms.

The platform on environmental regulation is in line with his record, honestly. He's introduced environmental protection legislation to Congress as early as the 80s, and sponsored bills proposed by Sanders on climate change. He's supported supports on carbon production before. So, no, the idea that he'll just renege on all this and do exactly what the Republicans would do is not supported by his record.

The platform on healthcare would clearly be going quite a bit further than anything he's supported before. In the Senate, he several times voted opposing expansions of the existing medicare programme. However, he also voted in favour of various rebates & cost-lowering measures during that time. The election platform also builds on the existing ACA. So the party platform this time around is not fully in line with his record, no; but his record is also substantially better than the average Republican's. He's never voted for such enormous roll-backs as Trump is proposing (10% cut). So, again, the idea that they will do the same thing is not supported by the record. But you're presuming he'll not only renege, but introduce enormous cuts? That's what would be necessary in order to make the Republican and Democratic positions equivalent-- it involves so many leaps of assumption.

One area that I specifically mentioned that does not reflect his record is the private prisons thing. He's now saying he'll end federal use of private prisons, despite being involved in expanding that very complex (and incentivising incarceration). So yes, that would be an about-turn.

Keep in mind: you need to believe not only that he will renege, but that a Democratic Congress will pretty uniformly renege as well, including Sanders' and Warren's delegates.

No, expanding safety net programs is deeply against his electoral history as well. If the platform includes debt forgiveness, that'd be against his history too.

As for the party reneging, I do believe they generally would because they have before.


Isn't one of the oldest rules in politics to not just blindly believe campaign promises? Isn't that the domain of suckers?

Yeah and he says the same thing over and over again and it gets really old. Frankly I would have been happy just ignoring him but he keeps butting into my conversations with other people and I feel I have to respond since I'm an idiot.
Oh no, how dare I use a forum as a forum.

Trying to stop means that hes trying to find every single thing bad about Biden and almost completely ignoring the threat of trump.
I'm saying if you want to fix the problems Trump represents, voting to continue those problems is counter-productive.

Yeah, the funny thing about that is that I see him kinda supporting that kind of thing since we see trump really using those kind of tactics, calling everyone who disagrees with him an enemy
ThinkingEmoji.jpg

Hmm yes, it's definitely not the person calling progressive voters Republican plants who is doing this.
 

Revnak

We must imagine Sisyphus horny
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I’m not supporting Biden because he openly hates me and my platform and I see no gains for socialism in casting a ballot for a leader who is such a blatant agent of entrenched capital. Whether he or Trump win the election, the Supreme Court will remain a conservative and anti-democratic structure that should be abolished and replaced with elected and term limited officials, congress will remain full of obvious profiteers, and the country will get incrementally worse as it has for the past half century, assuming it survives either’s entire term.
As for dealing with the apparently uniquely evil Trump, here is a simple question, if Trump is so abominable a singular individual that his holding of the office must be prevented at any cost, up to and including the lives of thousands of Americans lost to poor policy and public assembly during a pandemic, then why have none of you cowards picked up a gun and shot him? Pelosi could have stabbed him at any of his addresses rather than rely on people like myself betraying our moral or rational convictions to vote for some other abomination. Why does responsibility for removing Trump lie with the people who have the least power to do so and little material drive to see him gone? I refuse to be blackmailed by a party of unsuited heirs to tyrannical crowns. If you want him gone, kill him yourself.
 

Buyetyen

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As for dealing with the apparently uniquely evil Trump, here is a simple question, if Trump is so abominable a singular individual that his holding of the office must be prevented at any cost, up to and including the lives of thousands of Americans lost to poor policy and public assembly during a pandemic, then why have none of you cowards picked up a gun and shot him? Pelosi could have stabbed him at any of his addresses rather than rely on people like myself betraying our moral or rational convictions to vote for some other abomination. Why does responsibility for removing Trump lie with the people who have the least power to do so and little material drive to see him gone? I refuse to be blackmailed by a party of unsuited heirs to tyrannical crowns. If you want him gone, kill him yourself.
What a silly thing to say. I mean it, this is a really odd thing to say. Especially following that vehement rant about how justified you are in not voting. I mean, you obviously don't love socialism enough to kill for it, which is a good thing, but to ask it of us is really bizarre.