So, I agree with pretty much everything in Anita Sarkeesian's Damsels in Distress video.

[ninjaRiv]

Would you enjoy Loki in just his pants?

I'm gonna be the one who says it: I'd be ok with that.

But on topic, we as a community celebrate games like Silent Hill 3 and Beyond Good and Evil so there's is no valid reason why developers and publishers can't put out female characters that are interesting and well developed.

 

[generals3]

Just because things are sexist to make profits doesn't mean they are any less sexist... One would argue that making content sexist is exclusionary to the core gameplay. That itself is something I take umbrage with.

That said I have no idea why men have a problem with better female characters.

Better is relative. For some men better female characters are characters with less clothes and big tits. So by their standards a lot of games are giving good female characters.

Secondly, you can't expect developers to just make characters better. It comes at a cost, dev time to be more precise. As such better female characters will come at the detriment of male characters or other things. It's not a win-win it's a tradeoff. It's like how everyone likes better graphics but don't want devs to invest too much in graphics because they know in one way or an other it will back fire (less investment in gameplay, story, etc.)

And remember how my quote was that if feminists were only about equal treatment that they overstepped their boundaries by attacking the gaming industry. Whether or not the environment in the games are sexist because of whatever reason is irrelevant. Because the industry does not treat female players differently because they are female. And the way characters are treated would only be relevant if we start considering gaming characters to be real persons.

It's a chicken and and egg situation devs make games sexist, intentionally or not, and women are then put off by it and so they don't play the game and so devs make sexist games.

That is an assumption without any evidence. Make a market study, go ask women who don't play games why they don't and see if "the games are sexist" reason comes out in a spontaneous manner on such a scale that it is indeed the fault of devs that the male player-base is that much bigger.

Only way they are going to break that is by making better female characters, the onus is on them because if we support sexist games then they will think we are okay with it...

See above

I play games and love them but I still recognize there is room for improvement and indeed more characters like Elizabeth and Lara would be welcome and look they aren't hideous man women you think feminists want to force on you. Who would have thunk huh.

I have never stated feminists wanted to shove hideous man women on our faces. That was a mere assumption on your part. And fyi i'm one of those who dislikes bikini armor in RPG's and other silly useless oversexualization of women. But not because it's some kind of anti-women move but because it's silly, absurd and usually isn't consistent with other elements of the game. (if females can be fully protected by a bikini than why as a male would i wear bulky armor which covers my entire body?)

Imagine if you loved games but lived in a world where 90% of games were aimed at women. Would you like that? Would you complain? Would you enjoy Loki in just his pants?

These are questions you need to ask yourself.

No. Yes. No. But unlike feminists I wouldn't use underhanded tactics by bringing in social issues and just state: i don't like it. Which is what I do when i complain about the easiness of games nowadays. You assume i'm angry about the complaining. I'm not. I'm disgusted by how the complaining is done and trying to guilt people to such a point they feel they have to conform or feel like misogynistic pigs is just wrong.

 

[Sherokain]

My biggest issue is that alot of her examples are from old games. Sure the tropes within them still exist to some extend but alot of these games are from another time. It's like old movies with racism in them, things were different back then.

I personally think videogames are getting better and better at giving equal attention to both genders, but maybe i'm just a glass half full type of person.

One example being Saints Row 2.. Gender was a slider in that game.. A slider.. Doesn't get more gender equal than that.

To her credit(or otherwise) i do believe she did state her next part of this video would be on more recent games, working in reverse wouldnt make much sense. How well this defense holds up however is more on the timescale she is planning to release her videos as currently she seems to be taking a fair amount of time to release each one or part. So seeing how she tackles more recent games will shed a greater amount of light on to her alleged research i believe.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

But the reason we don't like it is because it misogynistic. That's what we are saying :|

and if men think 'better' female characters have big tits and less clothes then that's exactly what they are no two ways about it.

Most feminists I've seen who involve themselves with gaming are themselves gamers. Like you said yourself if 90% of games were aimed at women you would complain.

So why are you vilifying female gamers for doing exactly that.

Like the quote I linked earlier said ?You can identify with people of the other gender in movies, why could you not in games? The fact that our core target is males 15-25 is not an excuse. We need to be able to create, and respect the audience enough to believe that they can be smart enough to identify with that type of character.?

and indeed it isn't an excuse.

 

[generals3]

But the reason we don't like it is because it misogynistic. That's what we are saying :|

and if men think 'better' female characters have big tits and less clothes then that's exactly what they are no two ways about it.

Most feminists I've seen who involve themselves with gaming are gamers. Like you said yourself if 90% of games were aimed at women you would complain.

So why are you vilifying female gamers for doing exactly that.

A: Games are not misogynistic. Feminists are just abusing a word which has gotten such a negative connotation (for good reasons) that it makes people feel bad if they like/support whatever is claimed to be misogynistic.

Definition ofmisogyny
noun
[mass noun]

dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women:

How do games dislike or have contempt for women? Or even have an "ingrained prejudice".

prejudice
noun
[mass noun]

1preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience:

B: I'm not vilifying female gamers. Actually that mere statement makes you look extremely self centered, Why would you claim that feminists represent all female gamers? Remember the topic about the Scarlet Blade and the fact many women played that game (maybe even more than men)? You (feminists) do not represent all female gamers.
And to add more precision: i'm not vilifying anyone because of there preference. I'm merely doing my best to point to how wrong some of the arguments used to support their preferences are. And i'm disgusted by how their preferences are being argued. Like i once said in a topic it's like calling easy games communist games which support the idea of handing over everything to everyone regardless of efforts or competence.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

A good example is the bikini armour you brought up. That to me is 'contempt' for women. We can't really be heroes so we may as well be the sex appeal. A captured princess can't save herself a man has to do it. There's not room for women in this story beyond getting killed and providing motivation for the male lead. Do you not see how that is mysogynistic?

Don't you see how that is contemptuous.

Also just because women play Scarlet Blade doesn't mean it isn't sexist. You can be sexist against your own gender. That said I doubt many women play it.

Also I'd say they have an ingrained predjudice becuase as you are so eager to point out they are so often aimed at men.

 

[NearLifeExperience]

Another thread about this ignorant twat?

Can we all just universally agree to ignore her? Please?

 

[ninjaRiv]

snip

A good example is the bikini armour you brought up. That to me is 'contempt' for women. We can't really be heroes so we may as well be the sex appeal. A captured princess can't save herself a man has to do it. There's not room for women in this story beyond getting killed and providing motivation for the male lead. Do you not see how that is mysogynistic?

Don't you see how that is contemptuous.

Also just because women play Scarlet Blade doesn't mean it isn't sexist. You can be sexist against your own gender. That said I doubt many women play it.

Also I'd say they have an ingrained predjudice becuase as you are so eager to point out they are so often aimed at men.

What do you think of Red Sonja? This whole bikini armour got me to thinking and I was reminded of the fact that Gail Simone, celebrated female comic book writer, has taken over writing duties for the title.

Red Sonja is the lady version of Conan; she's a rude barbarian who loves to fight and kind of doesn't give a fuck. I sort of wonder if this is maybe a compromise between the sexualised and strong female leads in fiction.

I wanted to get your opinion because you obviously know your shit.

 

[Angelblaze]

I love how so many people are getting mad that you made a thread on something pertaining to video games, about someone who talks about video games, on a video game forum.


I've seen threads made for less important reasons. Kudos to both you and her.

Wow, you must be really interesting, why aren't you president yet? Your clearly bold rejection of others opinions is quite obvious seeing as you need to flaunt it on the internet. I can only hope the rest of these cruel penises can wake up and feel the same.

Hands down favorite right here. Implies that op is sexist towards men, implies that she disagrees with ALL of the opinions that the op explains, relies in sarcasm while adding nothing of any value to the thread.


OT: I agree with a majority of the points as well - and even when I didn't, the rape threats sent to her by youtube users and just gamers overall are enough to make me turn a blind eye even if she killed someone.
Hate me.

She didn't scam anyone out of their money when she made that kickstarter either. If you gave your money over willingly and she delivered the product, then it was a perfectly fine business exchange. Just because she charges something other people give away for free, occasionally, doesn't mean she 'scammed' anyone. If anything, she's locked herself in a contact that ensures she actually creates and finishes the series.

Bad example but enough of an example: If your parents let you stay over at their house for free, is getting your own house for your own money a scam?

 

[Saviordd1]

Oh...great.

I...don't care?

Her videos were whatever, not anything new really besides a big "GAMES ARE SEXIST" thing which I'm pretty sure everyone and their mother knew.

Yes, game's are sexist; its bad. Let's fix it, let's not complain about it.

Oh, no one has any ideas?

Then shut the hell up.


I totally agree when people say that game's need to grow up in this regard, but simply stating "THAT'S SEXIST" doesn't do much does it?

If you find a game offensive, don't buy it. As we can see with Bioshock recently games are growing in the right direction.

 

[generals3]

A good example is the bikini armour you brought up. That to me is 'contempt' for women. We can't really be heroes so we may as well be the sex appeal. A captured princess can't save herself a man has to do it. There's not room for women in this story beyond getting killed and providing motivation for the male lead. Do you not see how that is mysogynistic?

I'm sorry but that's literally looking way too much into things. For instance, if you take your bikini armor thing and you just looked at it objectively what you see are female heroes with bikini armor. They are still heroes and are doing the same as their fully armored male counterparts. One could even make a less far fetched claim that this is anti male because somehow males need full armor to have the same survivability as women in bikinis. And if you go start looking into things too much you could also come to the conclusion this is "slut" empowerment. Mind you that this is not what I believe, but when you look for things which aren't there you can come to many conclusions.

And no there being no room for female characters isn't misogynistic. If my car is full and a women asks for a ride and i say there is no room for her i'm not being a misogynistic pig. There is no inherent need for a developer to have a 50/50 representation of genders in their stories nor is their any inherent need for them to assign certain roles to women. If they want it to be the girlfriend to be kidnapped for the boyfriend to rescue that's just a choice. The assumption that such a choice is misogynistic would make the opposite choice misandryst.

Also just because women play Scarlet Blade doesn't mean it isn't sexist. You can be sexist against your own gender. That said I doubt many women play it.

Also I'd say they have an ingrained predjudice becuase as you are so eager to point out they are so often aimed at men.

Irrelevant to my point. You were claiming i am vilifying female players which implied they all shared the opinion of feminists which i refuted by bringing up the scarlet blade.

The free market disagrees. That second statement would imply that any business in the world is prejudiced because marketing 101 dictates you have to target specific segments.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

A good example is the bikini armour you brought up. That to me is 'contempt' for women. We can't really be heroes so we may as well be the sex appeal. A captured princess can't save herself a man has to do it. There's not room for women in this story beyond getting killed and providing motivation for the male lead. Do you not see how that is mysogynistic?

Don't you see how that is contemptuous.

Also just because women play Scarlet Blade doesn't mean it isn't sexist. You can be sexist against your own gender. That said I doubt many women play it.

Also I'd say they have an ingrained predjudice becuase as you are so eager to point out they are so often aimed at men.

What do you think of Red Sonja? This whole bikini armour got me to thinking and I was reminded of the fact that Gail Simone, celebrated female comic book writer, has taken over writing duties for the title.

Red Sonja is the lady version of Conan; she's a rude barbarian who loves to fight and kind of doesn't give a fuck. I sort of wonder if this is maybe a compromise between the sexualised and strong female leads in fiction.

I wanted to get your opinion because you obviously know your shit.

Really? I didn't know that. Gail Simone has done a great job on Batgirl so it makes me happy that she has Red Sonja.
There are ways to draw women in said armour that doesn't sexualise but I don't know how much at liberty she will be with the character.

That's said I hope days of boobs and butt fighting poses are behind us. Red Sonja always seemed to border on a stroke mag to me along with Avangeline and Vampirella.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

When they give the female character such armour they are saying 'This character is here as eye candy for the GUY playing the game' and thus straight out of the gate negate anything she does by objectifying her. As for the story element the problem is that they so often marginalise female characters that it's become a problem. Also look at Bishock Infinite the damsel in distress trope was massively improved just by giving her some agency outside of Booker coming to help her. She had taught herself how to pick locks and break codes. She wasn't just an object sitting in a tower.

My point was that most feminists who voice complaints about this are gamers themselves. And then so why are they ignored when you yourself said you would complain?

At the end of the day making money doesn't legitimise sexism. It benefits and panders to you so you don't like people complaining?

 

[ninjaRiv]

snip

A good example is the bikini armour you brought up. That to me is 'contempt' for women. We can't really be heroes so we may as well be the sex appeal. A captured princess can't save herself a man has to do it. There's not room for women in this story beyond getting killed and providing motivation for the male lead. Do you not see how that is mysogynistic?

Don't you see how that is contemptuous.

Also just because women play Scarlet Blade doesn't mean it isn't sexist. You can be sexist against your own gender. That said I doubt many women play it.

Also I'd say they have an ingrained predjudice becuase as you are so eager to point out they are so often aimed at men.

What do you think of Red Sonja? This whole bikini armour got me to thinking and I was reminded of the fact that Gail Simone, celebrated female comic book writer, has taken over writing duties for the title.

Red Sonja is the lady version of Conan; she's a rude barbarian who loves to fight and kind of doesn't give a fuck. I sort of wonder if this is maybe a compromise between the sexualised and strong female leads in fiction.

I wanted to get your opinion because you obviously know your shit.

Really? I didn't know that. Gail Simone has done a great job on Batgirl so it makes me happy that she has Red Sonja.
There are ways to draw women in said armour that doesn't sexualise but I don't know how much at liberty she will be with the character.

That's said I hope days of boobs and butt fighting poses are behind us. Red Sonja always seemed to border on a stroke mag to me along with Avangeline and Vampirella.

Yeah, in fact all the variant covers are drawn by women.
http://www.comicsalliance.com/2013/04/08/red-sonja-1-cover-art-simone-dynamite/

I doubt the Poorly drawn female fight scenes are behind us (especially while the likes of Horn and Land are still working in comics) but I, personally, think something like this is a step in the right direction.

The more I think about, the more I feel that Red Sonja is just Conan but with boobs. She probably wears more than him, actually. I've felt just as sexually attracted to both so I don't know if maybe Sonja is a bit of a hidden middle ground for those who enjoy all the sexy stuff and those who enjoy strong female leads. And, at the end of the day, everyone could go away with a new understanding for both sides.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip.

I meant for Sonja but yeah I like the fact that Red Sonja is in better hands as a character. I like to see the interior art but my comic book sub is over £20 a month already.

and lol Greg Land. He of porn tracing.

That cover you linked is cool. Instead of posing for the guys she looks pretty ominous. I don't like it when people sexualise female heroines because it takes away from then being a hero to me and turns them into a fashion model for men to drool at.

I'm not keen on your comparison to Conan because I don't think he's sexualised but more of a power fantasy.

 

[generals3]

When they give the female character such armour they are saying 'This character is here as eye candy for the GUY playing the game' and thus straight out of the gate negate anything she does by objectifying her.

No, that is you hearing that. And negating anything she does? Really? So you'd negate anything women do in RL because they wear skimpy clothes? And if not, why would you assume skimpy clothes negate anything a female character does in a game?
And you also make the assumption this is only for the guy. Unless you have surveys/studies to back the fact that most female gamers don't like playing as bikini armored female characters you have no point. And this is probably one of the biggest problem i have with feminists; they think their opinion are shared by all women.

My point was that most feminists who voice complaints about this are gamers themselves. And then so why are they ignored when you yourself said you would complain?

At the end of the day making money doesn't legitimise sexism.

Because gamers complain about a lot and most who complain are ignored because they are just a loud minority. Just like I am when i complain about the difficulty of games.

At the end of the day it isn't sexism because the free market only cares about money which isn't gendered. The outcome may be sexist but that is irrelevant. Women are free to choose what they study just as men yet you see clear difference in ratios which is a technically sexist outcome, does that mean universities discriminate or act in a sexist manner? No.
The gaming market wants money and if the feminist dream game doesn't offer money than it won't happen, period. This has NOTHING to do with sexism, misogyny or whatever and all to do about capitalism and the free market.

 

[ninjaRiv]

snip.

I meant for Sonja but yeah I like the fact that Red Sonja is in better hands as a character.

and lol Greg Land. He of porn tracing.

That cover you linked is cool. Instead of posing for the guys she looks pretty ominous. I don't like it when people sexualise female heroines because it takes away from then being a hero to me and turns them into a fashion model for men to drool at.

I'm not keen on your comparison to Conan because I don't think he's sexualised but more of a power fantasy.

Greg Land is probably Ron Jeremy in disguise.

Well, that's what I mean; she's clearly a beautiful woman but that isn't made obvious by her poses, more so by her general appearance and, in a lot of cases, her actions.

I see your point, Conan is obviously more of a power fantasy. The pointed I wanted to make, but didn't because I suck at making points, is that it's possible for a woman to occupy the same space on a shelf full of beer swilling, horny, violent barbarians without losing that due to bad art and writing.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

The outcome may be sexist but that is irrelevant.

No it isn't, that is in fact the point. Sexism is what we are complaining about. It doesn't matter whether the devs do it because they hate women or because they like money. We want them to STOP DOING IT.

At the end of the day you are sitting here telling me, as a female gamer, what I should and shouldn't say...

As for female heroes in 'slutty' clothes as you put it. Yeah it does bother me because I like immersion in my video games and having to play a female character so obviously created for male gaze is irritating to me.

 

[Raine_sage]

Another thread about this ignorant twat?

Can we all just universally agree to ignore her? Please?

Don't worry this thread stopped being about anita after the third page now we're just having the usual debate about an unrelated subject.

 

[The_Echo]

What exactly are you agreeing with?

90% of that video is her pointing out things everyone already knew. Moreover, she points these out from games 20+ years old. As if they accurately represent the landscape of today's games.

The video, overall, was poor. There were several instances where I genuinely wondered if she actually did play games.