So I went back to some old games

[sneakypenguin]

Well I totally legit aquired a psx and ps2 emulator. Have to say gaming has come a long way. I played devil may cry, ratchet and clank,god of war, tony hawk, and mgs3 subsistence for the ps2 and found them all except for GoW and a bit of tony hawk to be clunky gameplay, bad level design, terrible muddy graphics even with all the improvements from the emulator 1080p 60fps. Stuff you take for granted like good cameras, level design that makes sense and controls that are standard nowdays is completely missing from these old games.

So far everything i've played GoW has been the only thing thats tolerable. I just cant get over how crap some of these games are. I'm trying FF7 right now and so far its not been great, random battles are annoying maybe theres a way to skip these easy ones but right now I'm just facetanking stuff every 30 seconds wasting time in stupid simple battles.

So is there any game from that era that still holds up?

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

I'd edit this quick. You can't mention p*rating or em*lating. Its a sin.

As far as games go, Shadow of the Colossus is a fantastic game. But I can't say how well a not official port of it might work, and there is a remastered version somewhere.

There seems to be a big deal with Silent Hill 2, but I think its mostly meh.

I'm sure there's a few decent Gundam games out there. Good ol' punch up with giant robots.

 

[Casual Shinji]

The one thing that incrementally improves with each generation is controls. Something you won't be too aware of until you go back and replay some older games. It's hard for me now to imagine being able to play through the Jak and Daxter series, but I did at one point. Now, it's fucking impossible. A lot of games back then were still going through that awkward 3D stage.

As for some of the games you played... The first Ratchet and Clank has aged horribly due to the lack of a strafe button. The sequels play fine. And in MGS3 (even with the added benefit of a controllable camera, which the original version did not have) the stealth is the most frustrating of the franchise. Play MGS2 or even 1 and you'll find it a lot less annoying.

I can't comment on the visuals, since all these games have always looked great to me, and I don't know what impact the emulation has on the graphics. I saw a let's play of MGS3 being emulated once, and the visuals looked damn near unfinished compared to the PS2/PS3 version.

 

[chrissx2]

Oh I play plenty of those but most of them are enhanced by mods or remastered.

Transport Tycoon Deluxe, fallout 1 and 2, Arcanum, Diablo 2, StarCraft 1, WarCraft3, Age of Empire 2, Quake 2, SimCity4k, Discworld 1 and 2, Robbo, Knights and Merchants, Settlers 3 and 4, DooM 2, Deus Ex, Heroes 3, Tzar, RBR etc.

In most cases, I prefer them way more than their modern counterpart.

 

[Fox12]

Well, it sounds like you value graphics and controls over plot. Maybe give Persona a try? And Zelda is as good now as it ever was.

 

[sneakypenguin]

Not sure if you were generalizing what you've played but GoW 2 controls more fluidly if you only tried the first one. Same with the later Tony Hawks.

The SSX games might still be fun.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Well, it sounds like you value graphics and controls over plot. Maybe give Persona a try? And Zelda is as good now as it ever was.

The TC sounded more like the controls, gameplay, and level design just aren't as good. Hell, the controls of a 3rd-person shooter didn't really become actually good until Resident Evil 4 and it took a survival horror to accomplish that. A PS2 TPS controlling as well as just say Uncharted (which has at best average controls) just didn't exist. Most games are very "game" heavy so a plot really can't save bad gameplay. Plus, writing in games is better now than it's ever been (on the whole) and it's still quite shit. There's not many games to go back to that have legitimately good and engaging stories as they are very few and far between. I don't care if say FFVII has the greatest game plot ever, I didn't play that game then and I'm not playing it now either because the gameplay was so bad; random battles and the "standard" JRPG battle system lasted way way longer than they had any right to.

 

[sneakypenguin]

So playing some more stuff today there seems to be a running theme of whats annoying me. 1. cameras for 3rd person games have been crap. I feel like half the time i'm trying to fight offscreen enemies or its not showing me part of the level I want to see.(why am I running down a hallway towards the camera) 2. level design at least in what i've played has been very gamey. Hmm I've walked up and down this level twice where is the red rusty key... which leads to the trial an error method of jumping attacking and hitting action until you trigger the pickup of the item you need. Or even in God of War the most modern feeling one still 5 minutes in had this shuffle a block around so you could jump on it to get to the point you needed to get. 3. The writing is bad, like dad jokes combined with a 12 year olds fan fiction. 4. the controls. Some of them are nonsense like 2 buttons and a directional input for a simple action. Maybe its why GoW has been the only one ive liked control wise. Jump, light attack, heavy attack, block, dodge all mapped to how a modern system would be.

Played starfox 64 and supermario 64 and Zelda those have held up pretty good of course with the emulator they look way better than normal. Goldeneye and turok are clunky as heck though.

Racing games have mostly held up, some of the 3rd person cartoony action games are also pretty good if you can handle some of the arbitrary gamey feel IE collectathon and videogame puzzles some have.

 

[Fox12]

Well, it sounds like you value graphics and controls over plot. Maybe give Persona a try? And Zelda is as good now as it ever was.

The TC sounded more like the controls, gameplay, and level design just aren't as good. Hell, the controls of a 3rd-person shooter didn't really become actually good until Resident Evil 4 and it took a survival horror to accomplish that. A PS2 TPS controlling as well as just say Uncharted (which has at best average controls) just didn't exist. Most games are very "game" heavy so a plot really can't save bad gameplay. Plus, writing in games is better now than it's ever been (on the whole) and it's still quite shit. There's not many games to go back to that have legitimately good and engaging stories as they are very few and far between. I don't care if say FFVII has the greatest game plot ever, I didn't play that game then and I'm not playing it now either because the gameplay was so bad; random battles and the "standard" JRPG battle system lasted way way longer than they had any right to.

I would actually argue FF7 holds up quite well. Random battles are annoying but forgivable, and the turn based combat system was one of the best of its genre. The only part that hasn't aged well are some of the awkward over world controls.

It can be rough to return to classic games, though. The PS1 era was especially awkward, because it was a period of transition. Super Metroid and Mario hold up incredibly well from the 2d era, but game designers still hadn't worked out the kinks of 3d game design. Even fan favorites like Crash Bandicoot and Megaman Legends can be awkward to return to. It got better during the ps2 era, and was refined during the ps3 era.

Despite this, I would argue that there are a remarkable number of classic games that still hold up in one way or another. FF7 was one of them, but there were also games like Silent Hill, Silent Hill 2, Ocarina if Time, Majoras Mask, Resident Evil 2&3, REmake, Fatal Frame 2, most of the Persona series... the list is really endless.

 

[Rabish Bini]

Man, I personally think MGS3 still holds up fantastically today, and is a triumph of game design.

Different strokes, I guess.

 

[wings012]

Don't know if you are into robots but Zone of the Enders maybe? It's short and pretty fun. Even though it got remade, there's nothing inherently wrong with the PS2 versions whereas I heard all sorts of dodgy things about the HD remakes.

Ace Combat 5 and 0 are always great if you are into planes. Some would argue that Project ACES still haven't managed to top their PS2 games.

 

[JohnnyDelRay]

Well, it sounds like you value graphics and controls over plot. Maybe give Persona a try? And Zelda is as good now as it ever was.

The TC sounded more like the controls, gameplay, and level design just aren't as good. Hell, the controls of a 3rd-person shooter didn't really become actually good until Resident Evil 4 and it took a survival horror to accomplish that. A PS2 TPS controlling as well as just say Uncharted (which has at best average controls) just didn't exist. Most games are very "game" heavy so a plot really can't save bad gameplay. Plus, writing in games is better now than it's ever been (on the whole) and it's still quite shit. There's not many games to go back to that have legitimately good and engaging stories as they are very few and far between. I don't care if say FFVII has the greatest game plot ever, I didn't play that game then and I'm not playing it now either because the gameplay was so bad; random battles and the "standard" JRPG battle system lasted way way longer than they had any right to.

I'd have to disagree with you on that. IMO, some games had fantastic 3rd-person controls way before RE4 (Dead to Rights, Bloodrayne, Max Payne, Heavy Metal FAKK), though I did play some of those on KB&M. But RE4 wasn't even all that good. The only nice thing was the OTS aiming, but the tank-controls, together with aiming only on the left stick, was an absolute disaster for me. Even when they remade the game for PS3, I just couldn't bring myself to re-wire drastically enough to play it. Not until they did the PC HD release which allowed you to flip them like more modern shooters (aim with RS), then it was superb. Though this is only my personal experience.

Controls have evolved quite a bit though, and you can be more confident in picking up a modern game that it's not going to be something that'll make or break the game as much as it did in the past (except driving games, maybe). And the games that are more controversial allow a few adjustments. Witcher 3 default movement style is ridiculous for example, I spend most of the time banging into things and roaming around like I do after a bender on happy hour Fridays instead of a deft and agile swordsman.

One thing I've always wondered though - I've played Dying Light on KB&M and found the parkour to be fantastic (apart from the inability to climb down from things). But I heard on consoles, the jump is mapped to a shoulder/bumper/trigger button. How the hell does one re-wire for that? Anyone with experience there can fill me in? Curious.

 

[Xan Krieger]

The Front Mission series to me will always hold up, love those games. Also Final Fantasy X, still an amazing game. Finally the early Tony Hawk games before Underground when they started adding in random systems like driving.

 

[Tanis]

If you're a graphics-first person?
Not a great many games hold up...

Also: The E...yeah, even on some kind of 2000USD set up, the E for the PS2 isn't going to be perfect.
That system, and the damn 'Emotion Chip', has made it pain in the ass to get working properly.

Still, your best bet is to head to the forums and see what settings folks are using.

You'd be amazed at how a touch or two of the 'advanced' settings can make a game go from 'Da fuck iz tis?' to 'Tis iz teh shiznit.'

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

One thing I've always wondered though - I've played Dying Light on KB&M and found the parkour to be fantastic (apart from the inability to climb down from things). But I heard on consoles, the jump is mapped to a shoulder/bumper/trigger button. How the hell does one re-wire for that? Anyone with experience there can fill me in? Curious.

Pretty easily.

I mean, you'll fuck it up constantly for about the first half hour or so, but then you'll get used to it.

Personally I prefer it, I used to play Bumper Jumper in Halo, since using one of the bumpers to jump allows you to jump, aim, and shoot at the same time without taking your thumb off the aiming stick.

I really don't understand this whole "rewiring" thing people sometimes complain about. It tends to only be a problem if you're constantly jumping back and forth between the same style of game. Like if say someone plays call of duty, then in an hour plays Halo, and then back to call of duty then I can see how it could be jarring, but otherwise your brain adapts pretty fast.

 

[Kae]

From the PS2, X-Box & Gamecube Era?

Well do keep in mind that I not only grew up in that era but also that I never stopped playing games from that era and that I generally don't enjoy modern games all that much, in fact, I find most of them to be pretty boring and uninteresting, and that I also greatly enjoy games from the PS1, N64, Saturn era.

For my money TloZ WindWaker holds up both graphically and design-wise, sure the pacing is not great and that whole collecting the triforce pieces part is way longer than it needs to be but the game is still fantastic, then there's Smash Bros. Melee which still plays fantastically, actually Soul Calibur 2, Capcom VS SNK2, MvC2 and shit loads of fighting games still hold up quite well, and while a lot of WRPGs feel unnecessarily clunky I feel JRPGs hold up pretty well, Tales of Symphonia, Skies of Arkadia and Final Fantasy XII being some examples I'd consider good.
As for shooting games, well the TimeSplitters series is pretty good, the level Design is so fantastic that it's hard not to love it and the controls are pretty solid, stylized graphics help it quite a lot, also XIII is a pretty solid Shooter too that I feel holds up quite well, sure the characters are boxy but the cell-shading helps it a lot, and of course there's Max Payne 1&2, I mean they are PC games but they are from that era, you want good level design that's actually hard but with Rock Solid controls? There's your game, sure it sacrifices good animations for precision controls but it feels great, it just nails everything I don't care if the graphics are dated because the presentation is still fantastic in terms of style regardless.

If you wish I can mention a lot more because I really do love "retro" games, but I do know they are not for everyone and I do have a high tolerance for some of their most archaic aspects, but I generally find they are worth it just for how much more interestingly varied they are than modern games, though again that was my era from when I really cared about video games, now I'm more of a table-top player than a video-game player, not to say I don't still love video games but they are not my favourite hobby anymore, I'm much more likely to spend $250.00 on D&D minis, Dice, Books[footnote]In fact I already ordered my own copy of the Volos just so I can write on it and leave notes -In character- because I really do like RP that much and I don't want the Limited Edition version our DM has to be damaged.[/footnote] & Spell Cards than I am to purchase a super rare game in the vein Phantasy Star Online 1&2 Plus, even though in the past that's exactly what I did with my Hobby savings.

 

[JohnnyDelRay]

snip

Pretty easily.
snipped

Yeah, I suppose it wouldn't take that long. I guessed something as fundamental as jumping, which you do in stupendous amounts in Dying Light would throw me off, but now I think of it the opposite is probably true. It's more the buttons that you use *less* often such as throwing grenades, zooming, using special powers/items that would take longer to rewire.

I had less problems with rewiring when I was younger, so it might be an age thing. Smaller things, such as the bumpers and triggers being flipped vertically on PS3/XBOX360 wasn't much of a problem for me, or the positions of the analog sticks. Anything else I agree you'd be able to pick up in a short enough time, minor annoyance that it is. The only things that gave me problems were:

1) (as I mentioned earlier) the aiming with the left stick, as in RE4, which I still managed to finish
2) Driving games: changing gears with square and X, and accelerating/braking with more travel-sensitive triggers rather than buttons. Ok I can do it fine now, but having spent a ridiculous amount of time in my youth accelerating with X and braking with square, changing gears with bumpers it was a hell of an adjustment.
3) Still haven't quite got the hang of Street Fighter with medium attacks being mapped to bumpers, there again I played in arcades, computers, and on Sega Megadrive which I bought a 6-button controller for way back.

Having said all that, bumper jumping in shooters sounds excellent, and definitely a lot more useful than say jumping and shooting *while* throwing a grenade which is much more rare, if even possible. I might have to give that a try once, since I'm getting Halo 5 and an XBOX 1 on Christmas sale (do they allow that kind of remapping?)

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I would actually argue FF7 holds up quite well. Random battles are annoying but forgivable, and the turn based combat system was one of the best of its genre. The only part that hasn't aged well are some of the awkward over world controls.

Despite this, I would argue that there are a remarkable number of classic games that still hold up in one way or another. FF7 was one of them, but there were also games like Silent Hill, Silent Hill 2, Ocarina if Time, Majoras Mask, Resident Evil 2&3, REmake, Fatal Frame 2, most of the Persona series... the list is really endless.

I hate the standard JRPG battle system where you have the heroes on one side trading blows vs enemies on the other side trading blows. There's little strategy involved (sorta the point of a turn-based system) since positioning plays no role and your stats are far far more important than the player's input. What's the point of me constantly fighting when my input is sorta meaningless. The one thing FFXII (which literally had the same battle system as FFX) exposed was that standard FF combat has so little strategy that a few if-then-else statements (gambits) will have the game play itself. You can put gambits in any standard turn-based FF game and any game will play itself. The player is just basically forced to go through menus and enter in brainless commands over and over again. I even saw this as a kid playing FFVI on SNES and stopped playing it because combat was more like using a boring computer program than playing a game. At least FFXII let me automate most of it.

I never said there aren't great games from past generations. I merely agreed with the TC that certain genres have really improved in controls and gameplay since the PS2 era and prior.

I'd have to disagree with you on that. IMO, some games had fantastic 3rd-person controls way before RE4 (Dead to Rights, Bloodrayne, Max Payne, Heavy Metal FAKK), though I did play some of those on KB&M. But RE4 wasn't even all that good. The only nice thing was the OTS aiming, but the tank-controls, together with aiming only on the left stick, was an absolute disaster for me. Even when they remade the game for PS3, I just couldn't bring myself to re-wire drastically enough to play it. Not until they did the PC HD release which allowed you to flip them like more modern shooters (aim with RS), then it was superb. Though this is only my personal experience.

Controls have evolved quite a bit though, and you can be more confident in picking up a modern game that it's not going to be something that'll make or break the game as much as it did in the past (except driving games, maybe). And the games that are more controversial allow a few adjustments. Witcher 3 default movement style is ridiculous for example, I spend most of the time banging into things and roaming around like I do after a bender on happy hour Fridays instead of a deft and agile swordsman.

One thing I've always wondered though - I've played Dying Light on KB&M and found the parkour to be fantastic (apart from the inability to climb down from things). But I heard on consoles, the jump is mapped to a shoulder/bumper/trigger button. How the hell does one re-wire for that? Anyone with experience there can fill me in? Curious.

I played Bloodrayne (or the sequel, I forget which) and I hated that game, it went on far longer than it needed to. I'm almost positive that RE4 (on PS2) had aiming on the RS. And, the FAQs on GameFAQs for RE4 HD say the aiming is on the RS as well. OTS aiming was huge for controllers because you need that sensitivity "switch" aim properly. TPSs played horribly on controllers until pretty much RE4.

Mirror's Edge has the jump on the shoulder buttons as well and it works great. I remember saying that Mirror's Edge was gonna to suck because, you know, 1st-person platforming but the demo sold me within 5 minutes. I never felt like I had to rewire my brain for it.

 

[Rangaman]

By god, if those are your thoughts on the sixth gen, DO NOT GO BACK TO THE FIFTH GEN.

You do have to remember that for many developers, 3D gameplay was still relatively new.

 

[JohnnyDelRay]

snip

I played Bloodrayne (or the sequel, I forget which) and I hated that game, it went on far longer than it needed to. I'm almost positive that RE4 (on PS2) had aiming on the RS. And, the FAQs on GameFAQs for RE4 HD say the aiming is on the RS as well. OTS aiming was huge for controllers because you need that sensitivity "switch" aim properly. TPSs played horribly on controllers until pretty much RE4.

Mirror's Edge has the jump on the shoulder buttons as well and it works great. I remember saying that Mirror's Edge was gonna to suck because, you know, 1st-person platforming but the demo sold me within 5 minutes. I never felt like I had to rewire my brain for it.

RE4 on PS2 had 2 controller types, only switching whether you use R1 to shoot, or square. The RE4 HD version has right stick aiming, but that's only the latest HD version, that's available on PC, which I played with an XBOX controller. The PS3 HD version, released much earlier, didn't (I should know, it's installed on my PS3 right now).

Bloodrayne was a poor game, but it was pretty darn sensitive and accurate with KB&M. If it sucked with a controller though (and all other TPSs), I'll take your word for it because I rarely tried.

As I was saying to Dirty Hipsters earlier, I guess I can see how a major function (such as JUMP in a parkour-based game) would be much easier to adjust to, than a function you were using sparingly. So I guess it makes sense to use something very often assigned to the triggers/bumpers, and wouldn't take as long to rewire.

Also, on your topic of JRPG's, I've found that the strategy in games like Fire Emblem nicely add a bit more tension as map positioning, unit priority and weapon bias play into it much more when you have an entire field to take into account, rather than the typical friends left enemies right, lets take turns scenario.