So, I'm making a game.

[LiquidGrape]

This is sounding dangerously much like "edgy".

 

[chikusho]

If all you are going for is offing cliched characters, why should we care that they die?
Do you have a purpose of killing them other than that you like to see heroes lose?

A game that did this, only way too late in the story:

Spoiler

Red Dead Redemption. I wish that there would've been at least a hand full of missions as Jack after the final mission. Where the just cause instilled in him from the death of his father motivated even more bloody revenge and violent rebelling.

Point is, you need to be effective. If everyone just dies haphazardly, death has no meaning.

 

[Kopikatsu]

If all you are going for is offing cliched characters, why should we care that they die?
Do you have a purpose of killing them other than that you like to see heroes lose?

I'm not sure which part you're referring to. Are you talking about the Prologue party? In which case, it's to set the tone. They're not meant to be around long or accomplish anything of note.

If you mean Mira's party, then...well, it's impossible to not make a character that's cliche in some aspects (If you can think of it, it's been done. I mean, look at Drakengard's party. Mute serial murderer, pedophile, elf who eats the flesh of children, and a boy who is eternally eight years old. Yeah, it works out about as well as you'd expect. Especially since in one ending, you end up sacrificing the boy.), but they're meant to actually do things.

 

[SweetShark]

Ok, you know what? I will tell a scene of the manga I remember:
*......snip*

Mate... I didn't have to read half of that to know that you didn't see a manga so much as you saw a torture porno...
Now I implore you to never inflict anyone with these thoughts ever again.

Nah, this is only a small example. Believe me, I had saw far worse than that.........
Of course because of my curiosity, I always end up crawling to my one of my corners of my room screamming in agony and pain for seeing these "things".......

Spoiler: MORE SICK THAN THE PREVIOUS EXAMPLE!!!

Ha! I will not tell ^^. I don't want to destroy your minds like I did with myself!!!

 

[chikusho]

Maybe I'm a bit tired and missed part of your layout.
In that case, sure, having a "tutorial" character that ends up killed works. Especially if it puts some meat on the bones of some or the rest of the cast and story.

Also, yes and no. Any character can be reduced to a stereotype the same way any individual can be reduced to a statistic or target group. If you go into creating characters by thinking "I can't avoid stereotypes so I better not fight it" you are doing it wrong. Unless you want to keep things basic and easy to follow with som other hooks to keep interest.

 

[Fluffythepoo]

Oh, I thought this was going to be about programming and stuffs. I'm a sad programming panda.

Character deaths only matter if your characters are meaningful and will stir enough of a reaction in your audience. They have to be more than just "I'm the guy who uses two swords", or "I'm the anti-hero that finds himself fighting the good fight". The more your characters feel living and breathing, the more attached to them people will be {like the Starks, although personally I hate the lot of the buggers aside from Arya and Ned}.

GRRM kills his characters because nobody is safe in Westeros {except for Jon fucking Snow; "FOR THE WATCH" my big, fat ass. Fuck you, Snow.}

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

also its okay to make stories without main protagonists or any real protagonists if youre targeting thirty and under demographic, might want to keep her alive if you want widen the appeal though

 

[Kopikatsu]

Maybe I'm a bit tired and missed part of your layout.
In that case, sure, having a "tutorial" character that ends up killed works. Especially if it puts some meat on the bones of some or the rest of the cast and story.

Also, yes and no. Any character can be reduced to a stereotype the same way any individual can be reduced to a statistic or target group. If you go into creating characters by thinking "I can't avoid stereotypes so I better not fight it" you are doing it wrong. Unless you want to keep things basic and easy to follow with som other hooks to keep interest.

I disagree. It simply means there is no effort going into making them super special snowflakes.

Anywho, I'm currently working on enemy groupings now because I'm trying to make the newbie cave, as it were. Gotta say, making enemy encounters is a lot harder than I thought it would be. And this is when I know exactly what stats/equipment the character has! I can't even imagine how much work it'll take to balance out mid and late game encounters. Yeesh.

 

[norashepard]

There was an example of this kind of thing, though not exactly.

Spoiler: Spoiler Maybe

Jade Empire sees the main character get murdered by their mentor right when you think you've beaten the game, and then the REAL third act starts. You probably wouldn't have that happen in your game, but if you need an example of a game that does it well (and REALLY expectantly), look there.

But my only other advice is don't make it so unfairly brutal from the start. Don't let the player get too attached to the PC, but don't make it obvious that they're just fodder. And just another idea, when they die, let the player choose who they control from then on. I think that would be cool.

 

[lacktheknack]

Anyway, I bring it up because I want to do something like that. How would you react if the main character suddenly dies 40-70% of the way through the game, and the focus then shifts to an ally or someone else entirely? If it's someone else entirely, then it's likely that most of the original party will have died in this event (But one of them will have become a traitor to save themselves and show up as an antagonist later).

Put short, I would be completely pissed off, would put the controller down, turn the game off, and never turn it on again.

And then I would post a bad review of it on Metacritic.

Nobody expects the main character to die, because they never do. And I hate that. They will always succeed, no matter what. Whatever odds are stacked against them, they will overcome it. It doesn't matter if it takes five continues, twenty continues, or whatever else.

The fact that people put so much time, interest, and effort into the main character is exactly why they must die. To show the player that truly, nothing is sacred and anything goes.

And that's exactly why they SHOULDN'T die. I've put some real effort into getting as far as I have, and to have it suddenly jerked out of my hands and left to spin off out of control while I faff around with some other character with their own agenda is intolerable.

And "anything goes" is a dangerous wish if I've ever heard one. "Anything goes" can be played in the "Dwarf Fortress" style, where you're told that everything goes and that you're going to die hilariously, THEN giving you the reins. That's great, actually. Then you can point and laugh when your fortress is suddenly destroyed by an outbreak of vicious cat zombies. In a story-driven context, however, suddenly informing me near the end that "anything goes" translates to "I am willing to piss on everything you've done, rip up everything you've attached to, and you have no real control of what's happening". It's manipulative and irritating.

I have no problems with a well written "hero dies at the end" sequence, because that's the end of the game. I generally hate these endings, but they're not all bad. However, if you're going to continue to rub my face in it, then you've lost yourself a player.

 

[GeneralFungi]

In the kind of game you've mentioned, it would be important for all of the characters to be somewhat likable. It would be hard to do. If I've grown attached to a character, and then they die, if it's for the sake of a good story I can accept it. But not if I have to play as a significantly less likable character. It would feel like a huge downgrade.

 

[BeerTent]

If you really hate hero characters, make the game immensely difficult. That'll teach the bastard!

EDIT: Durrrr~ Incredibly stupid/useless post removed.

 

[Voulan]

I really enjoyed the ending to The Longest Journey because the big quest you set upon turns out not to be yours, but actually someone else's. It's not a failure per se, but it turn around the idea of being the hero that saves the day. Instead, you're watching someone else do it, and you don't really accomplish anything. It's like being told you're the subject of an all-important prophecy, only to be told later that, actually, they'd made a mistake, it's this other person here.

So certainly from a narrative perspective it makes an interesting concept. Psychologically it's a very new concept in a video game, where typically you do end up saving the day with the main hero. And we all need something new, so absolutely go for it. Perhaps you could try another way besides death?

 

[Kopikatsu]

If you really hate hero characters, make the game immensely difficult. That'll teach the bastard!

On a more serious note. This seems like a really risky move. As a player myself I probably wouldn't care too much about this new character unless they had a clear objective of completing what the hero couldn't achieve, or a vested interest in knocking off the double-agent. If done right, it could be an excellent twist. Also, a Valve-style cutscene would probably work excellently here. Keep the player occupied. When the player gets injured and knocked down, have the hero drag them off down a hall, shooting at bad guys. When the two thinks they're safe, have the player witness the scene. Maybe the player is powerless to fight back, as they're trying to get their sidearm... Out of ammo... When the bag bad guy comes to betray them, it may be needed that the player goes ahead, Hears a "sorry" and is promptly killed.

This is merely a suggestion. I'm kind of assuming this is a shooter, as it sort of sounds like one.

...Etrian Odyssey-style sounds like a shooter?

People keep making weird assumptions like that, so...I'm going to make a quick recording of what I have right now. For an example.

 

[BeerTent]

If you really hate hero characters, make the game immensely difficult. That'll teach the bastard!

On a more serious note. This seems like a really risky move. As a player myself I probably wouldn't care too much about this new character unless they had a clear objective of completing what the hero couldn't achieve, or a vested interest in knocking off the double-agent. If done right, it could be an excellent twist. Also, a Valve-style cutscene would probably work excellently here. Keep the player occupied. When the player gets injured and knocked down, have the hero drag them off down a hall, shooting at bad guys. When the two thinks they're safe, have the player witness the scene. Maybe the player is powerless to fight back, as they're trying to get their sidearm... Out of ammo... When the bag bad guy comes to betray them, it may be needed that the player goes ahead, Hears a "sorry" and is promptly killed.

This is merely a suggestion. I'm kind of assuming this is a shooter, as it sort of sounds like one.

...Etrian Odyssey-style sounds like a shooter?

People keep making weird assumptions like that, so...I'm going to make a quick recording of what I have right now. For an example.

Those words simply did not register when I read that. I am so sorry. It's my understanding now that I actually look at it, it was a little more like the original final fantasy? Choose your characters, form a party, and then go at an adventure? I'm sure that the characters are a bit more static in where you're going.

Legent of Dragoon, in this case, might provide a much better example of where a good direction to go in that. One character dies in that game, but is replaced by a very similar character who is actually much notably (to someone too young to play RE2) more powerful. Perhaps this new character could be a similar copy of the dead character, but again, packin' more skills and abilities to use, so that players won't feel they had lost something that had been developing.

I had never actually played Etrian Odyssey, so... Maybe I should pick up a few videos.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Anyway, here's that video I promised.
It took about two hours to make everything in that video. Which is sad. Or is it sad? I have no idea. There's still a lot of work to be done there, too. Gotta rebalance everything because the fuckin' fairy is OP and the girl's attack is too strong (Although she chooses not to attack most of the time, which is good because her basic attack one shots Soldier!Varkus). Anyway, gotta fix/add animations, throw in a transition/thunder soundbite for the transformation, fix some scripting that evidently doesn't work, etc...

Another thing. Camstudio doesn't record audio. So...sorry about that. Play your own music while watching, I guess.

Edit: Well, Youtube suggested a song for me to replace the non-existent audio with, so...I did that.

Also, the reason it describes Varkus as female in his description is because the Demon that possess him is female. That description is meant for when his class is Demon Lord, not Soldier. As you won't ever control Soldier!Varkus outside of cutscene/forced fights, I don't feel it's super important to fix it.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Yeaaaah, double post/bump. Whatevs.

Anyway, I have a question for the community. Would you rather have most of the dialogue be told mid-battle as it is in the video (I make the flags very specific on purpose, so it's possible to miss conversations and such if you don't fulfill certain conditions. For example, for Mira's story, if you let her health fall below 30% during the second boss fight with no surviving teammates, she has a short conversation with the boss and gets a small stat boost/health restore.)- Eh. I went too far without payoff, so I'll start over.

Would you rather dialogue be told mid-battle using the method I described above, or primarily given through cutscene (In which case, everyone gets mostly the same dialogue and scenes.)

I'm also thinking of maybe borrowing a mechanic from FFX and add a 'talk' command in some fights, which can give stat boosts to allies, debuffs to enemies, etc depending on the situation.

Edit: To clarify, most boss fights won't have much dialogue either way. Like...in the video example, I went through the fight to ensure the most dialogue would trigger.

 

[Ocelano]

Weeellll... there's a certain popular JRPG from the 90's that did that almost same thing, and it is often regarded as one of the most surprising plot twists that people experience in gaming.

I think my memory is dodgy on this, so take this with a grain of salt.

Spoiler

The reason why that worked, was because it was well, kind of unheard of, but why I think it worked was because it was in the middle of a battle that was super hyped up. The battle wasn't hard, but it had a final stage feeling and it was incredibly drawn out. You felt tired comparing stats and watching animations play out. You were lining up stats, timing attacks, all the usual, when out of nowhere your party get's there ass kicked and the main character just kind of offs themselves to save their party, and because of how drawn out the battle felt, the main character just went ahead and said fuck it.

I'm definitely remembering that wrong, though, but that's how I think it might work. Make the player feel as worn out as the main character, have them feel connected at that last moment, even if the player didn't like them. I would for sure get the feels.

But anyway yeah, I'd totally play that. I wouldn't pre-order it though, I'm sorry.

Am I thinking the right character if I were to mention amnesia saving him from a siren and then having his role filled by a replacement female who if memory serves may of been his daughter?

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

Or, I could make a game where it starts cliche and the protagonist is given power, and then asked to save the world...at which point they stab the quest giver in the stomach and go on a journey to enslave the world and use that as the test game. I might make a new thread if I can't work a poll option into this one.

Edit: Either way, I'm probably going to end up calling the game 'The Final Hours'.

Two things.

First is that doing the total opposite of all cliches is cliche. Really cliche. Character cliches usually lie on two ends of a spectrum. if you try and do the polar opposite of all the goody two shoes cliche you will probably end up with "Zero motivation moustache twirling dick bag for no real reason" cliches and they piss me off even more to be frank.

As it is it that sounds like a really bad idea:

"You need to save the world"

"No im going to stab you and stab a baby and enslave everyone for no raison and also kill stab evil mean bad MWUAHAHAHAH"

If this is at the start we know nothing about the character other than "Everyone thought he was nice i guess but i have no evidence of this at all and now hes an evil asshole in all ways every way for seemingly no reason"

If its instantaneous evil thats boring and stupid. A VERY VERY slow draw out to the dark side is interesting. My favourite books, the Eisenhorn trilogy, are about a hard line puritanical and pious inquisitor who slowly goes rogue and starts binding demons into the bodies of innocent people. But every damn time he does something awful i agree with him and feel a twist of shame. Because its justified. Because he had no other choice. He was put in situations where LITERALLY the only option was to be the lesser of two demon summoners. To stab friends in the back. And betray oaths. And traffic in disgusting magic and demonology. It was very interesting to see such a transition. It was even better because the first book has him stay mostly within the lines on ALL occasions and you would feel justified and rightious in agreeing with all he did. It set the stage.

Drama is like building a house of cards and knocking them down. Suspense is when you KNOW certain cards will inevitably cause the whole thing to fall but you dont know when or how. And surprise is when something totally out of the blue knocks it all down utterly and reshuffles it. But it all requires you to build a house in the first place. To have preset norms so you can ruthlessly rip them down.

In game of thrones Ned Stark is shown to be moral and loyal. Its talked about VERY often that these traits made him Roberts best friend. And the norths trusted ruler. Always doing his duty and doing it well. We learn a lot about him and we learn why he is awesome and why everything that makes him great REALLY makes him great and how relying on his steadfast and honest personality gave him EVERYTHING he has today. Then we watch those things murder him extremely swiftly when he goes somewhere unfamiliar. Thats tragedy. He is the loyal moral perfect knight. We are him and we love him because hes everything in this genre we are familiar with but NOT overdone and cliche. He wasnt perky or childishly naive. He was down to earth and forward and a little sombre. It wasnt that he believed all men to be good. It was that he had simply never encountered evil in the form of a friends knife in the back. Since he is the first character we are and know we compare EVERYONE from then on to him. And since hes a saint and they, quite franky, are a bag of dicks it makes the contrast far worse.

Secondly: In a game losing all your stuff and time over and over is a blow that makes many gamers quit. I didnt equip ned stark or spend ages puzzling over what stats are tactically best for him or which gear to sell to make sure he is always in top shape to play with. I didnt make a personal investment like that, i just read about him and liked his personality. I didnt decide what colour cloak he should wear for 2 solid hours. If i did and he died id be pissed as fuck and probably not in a good way. I wasted all that time and in game money when i could have totally ignored him and focussed on the surviving members. Youre also at risk of making the game unplayable if you carry on with the same party minus the protagonist. What he he carried them with ALL the damage.

 

[Ryotknife]

Or, I could make a game where it starts cliche and the protagonist is given power, and then asked to save the world...at which point they stab the quest giver in the stomach and go on a journey to enslave the world and use that as the test game. I might make a new thread if I can't work a poll option into this one.

Edit: Either way, I'm probably going to end up calling the game 'The Final Hours'.

sounds like Soul Nomad's Demon path. You can probably have a lot of fun designing the game from the other perspective.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Stuff

See...

Plus, I gave it a lot of thought. At first, I couldn't come up with a compelling enough character to replace the protagonist with...but then I came to a realization. And now I do. I believe that what I have in mind will make the game fairly special, although I'm not entirely sure if it's a game people would want to play. Mmmm...well, we'll see.

Or, I could make a game where it starts cliche and the protagonist is given power, and then asked to save the world...at which point they stab the quest giver in the stomach and go on a journey to enslave the world and use that as the test game. I might make a new thread if I can't work a poll option into this one.

Edit: Either way, I'm probably going to end up calling the game 'The Final Hours'.

sounds like Soul Nomad's Demon path. You can probably have a lot of fun designing the game from the other perspective.

That is where I would draw inspiration from. Soul Nomad is my favorite game of all time and I strongly suggest anyone with a PS2 to pick it up. Or buy a PS2 if you don't have one, because why the hell wouldn't you? It has the biggest and greatest library of any console. It would be somewhat less comedic as I'm not very good at writing comedy, but I'm doin' my best.

Edit: Besides, much to some's chagrin, I have no problems with using cliches. Everything is a cliche, so there's no point in trying to do something unique for the sake of being unique, like a transsexual elf mage. Do you know how many of those there are? I don't, but I'm sure it's a double digit number.