So, I'm making a game.

[Ham Blitz]

Depending on how it was executed it could be good. I mean, the game play would be what keeps me in a game to get that far in to it in the first place, and I would hope that main character dying isn't a selling point because that alone wouldn't be much a reason to play it(and it would ruin the surprise).
I guess depending on what happens next would decide my mood on the scenario however. If you become someone else who had been in the story (doesn't have to be someone you played as) who was adequately equip then I would be fine. Unless you suddenly started playing as the villain, then that would be a middle finger of sorts... UNLESS! unless the plot got to a point where the original hero fought so far, you think you're at the conclusion then BAM! The hero figures out they've been working for the wrong side only to then get killed.

Long story short: If the game play is good, I would still play it, and then I go about multiple scenarios in which I wouldn't dislike the story for it.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Well, I'm setting up the world map at the moment and...

Is it better to design it a la early Final Fantasies were you're not barred from most places? As in, you're free to go almost anywhere after leaving the starting area...but if you go off the 'wrong' direction, you'll find yourself being one shotted in short order. Or should it be that you're restricted from those areas via broken bridges and such until you're ready?

Right now, I have it set up as the first example (And it will be left that way for the 'starter' game, because the protagonist of that game is, and is meant to be, ridiculously overpowered compared to most enemies. His stat cap is 9999 in everything, and he hits those fairly quickly. I do plan for him to 'retire' early on after establishing himself in the world and simply let his army do the fighting, at which point you take control of the second in command though, so it won't always be so easy). But for the 'real' game? Eh. I think I'd prefer the first, but again, veteran game designer I am not.

Second thing...er...well, I've forgotten the second thing.

Long story short: If the game play is good, I would still play it, and then I go about multiple scenarios in which I wouldn't dislike the story for it.

The gameplay is going to suck. I'm trying to break up the monotony with differing events and situations, but...it's a basic turn based RPG. Nothing ground breaking.

Edit: When I say it'll suck, I mean...it's not really unique nor is it actiony. It's a JRPG. Expect slow and methodical. I do want it to be fairly difficult, but I'm not sure if I want the difficulty to come from the necessity of proper preparation a la The Witcher or simply require you to abuse elemental and damage types. Maybe neither. I'll think on it. Still have up until the Dark Lord 'retires' to have to actually flesh out the combat system.

Edit 2: I do actually have a certain plot twist in mind that I feel will make the game great, buuuut...it still requires the protagonist's death well before the conclusion of the story. But, I feel like if I handle the transition well enough, it'll be fine. This part I'll be vague about though, because I reaaally like it and I don't think anything like it has been done before. And if someone tells me that it has (and it probably has), then I will have to kill them. Sorry, but that's just how it is.

 

[Ham Blitz]

Edit 2: I do actually have a certain plot twist in mind that I feel will make the game great, buuuut...it still requires the protagonist's death well before the conclusion of the story. But, I feel like if I handle the transition well enough, it'll be fine. This part I'll be vague about though, because I reaaally like it and I don't think anything like it has been done before. And if someone tells me that it has (and it probably has), then I will have to kill them. Sorry, but that's just how it is.

Well, to be honest, as lone as the transition is good it wouldn't make me hate the story or be mad at the game at all. I will admit, now I am kind of interested to see what will happen just to see what you have in mind.

 

[Camera]

Alright, some clarification. I hate heroes. A lot. Especially the naive goody-two shoes ones. Which she, Mira, is (Although she does have a pretty wicked scar, which has some nice backstory surrounding it).

If you realize having a generic "naive goody two shoes hero" is not terribly interesting writing. Why not add more depth to your character, maybe add a different motivation for the heroine, rather than simply being a naive force for good. A wicked scar and backstory do not make a character interesting. The player (though this applies for every media) needs to witness the character's personality and flaws before they can feel invested in the character at all. Simply mentioning a scar and back story is no substitute for a three dimensional character with realistic motivations, flaws and a unique personality.

EDIT: Apologies, that sounds a lot more harsh then I intended it to. Obviously I have not played the game or read your intended story for it. I doubt the brief synopsis of your game did it justice. This was simply meant as constructive feedback, I am not trying to criticize something I have not played.

 

[Happiness Assassin]

I'm having flashbacks to MGS2 now. It is difficult for people to care about the struggles of someone they barely know in a story and more often than not is just contrived. Have the replacement act as audience surrogate to their actions and have him be just as much the main character as the hero is, so that the shift isn't as jarring and the audience can have a reason to not like the hero along with you.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Edit 2: I do actually have a certain plot twist in mind that I feel will make the game great, buuuut...it still requires the protagonist's death well before the conclusion of the story. But, I feel like if I handle the transition well enough, it'll be fine. This part I'll be vague about though, because I reaaally like it and I don't think anything like it has been done before. And if someone tells me that it has (and it probably has), then I will have to kill them. Sorry, but that's just how it is.

Well, to be honest, as lone as the transition is good it wouldn't make me hate the story or be mad at the game at all. I will admit, now I am kind of interested to see what will happen just to see what you have in mind.

Mostly just bringing realism into it. For example...there's been a war with the Northern countries that lasted hundreds of years, and Mira wants to put a stop to it after personally losing family and friends to it, as well as meeting others who have suffered the same. But prior to the war, the main causes of death in the world were starvation and disease. But once the war started, the Kingdom involved started making alliances with it's neighbors to strengthen itself. This started a circulation of money, resources, and renewed trade...which cut the morality rate significantly once the wealth between the countries started to become equalized, in addition to causalities from the war reducing the spread of disease and lowering the strain on food supplies.

The countries in the alliance are funding the army to enforce the border they've created against the Northern countries, and so it helps keep money in circulation. However, where they're located is basically frozen tundra. They can't grow crops or really hunt. So Central sells them supplies with the money that they're loaning to the army, thus keeping the economy in a good state and raising the standard of living for everyone. In addition, birth rate is very high during this time- imagine if the WW2-era levels of production in the US never ended, and just kept building and building to unsustainable levels, up until where the war was absolutely necessary for the country to remain intact.

But if the war were to end, hundreds of thousands of people would be displaced. If they remained in the North, they would perish. If they returned to Central...they have no skills or abilities except fighting. They would place an unsustainable demand on the nation's infrastructure and the economy, food industry, and housing would all collapse. Millions would die, and the land that was abandoned by their army would be taken up by the North countries, who are used to living in such conditions. In addition, there is an army of monsters positioned nearby. Without the war as a showing of arms, the monsters have a high chance of moving on either the Northern or Central countries, which would prove disastrous for either.

Most of the high ranking government officials in Central understand this, and that's why they continue with the war despite seemingly having no motive initially. Northern works differently. They pretty much just like to fight. They select their leader through a trial of arms- it doesn't matter if you're the lowliest peasant or nobility. If someone bests you in one on one combat, they take your place. So the King of the Northern Tribes is a seriously badass ************ while the King of Central is pretty useless.

Anyway, I don't know if I want this explicitly stated in the game, and simply hint it with things like...talking to some people in the Merchant's Guild will reveal Central's economic situation, talking to someone in the borderlands may offhandedly comment that they rely on the supply caravans to survive, etc. And just leave it up to the player to figure out. But if I do that, I'm afraid people might not understand it. Not because logistics is a difficult concept, but people just aren't in that mindset when they think of 'MAGIC AND DRAGONS, HIYOOOOO'.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Alright, some clarification. I hate heroes. A lot. Especially the naive goody-two shoes ones. Which she, Mira, is (Although she does have a pretty wicked scar, which has some nice backstory surrounding it).

If you realize having a generic "naive goody two shoes hero" is not terribly interesting writing. Why not add more depth to your character, maybe add a different motivation for the heroine, rather than simply being a naive force for good. A wicked scar and backstory do not make a character interesting. The player (though this applies for every media) needs to witness the character's personality and flaws before they can feel invested in the character at all. Simply mentioning a scar and back story is no substitute for a three dimensional character with realistic motivations, flaws and a unique personality.

EDIT: Apologies, that sounds a lot more harsh then I intended it to. Obviously I have not played the game or read your intended story for it. I doubt the brief synopsis of your game did it justice. This was simply meant as constructive feedback, I am not trying to criticize something I have not played.

It would be fleshed out over the course of the game. It's not like...'About that scar...' 'Oh, this? Long story. NO TIME.'.

I feel like naive goody two shoes can be made interesting by the world around them. For example, Batman is the least interesting character in anything that he's in. It's the characters and situations around him that make his exploits such a joy to follow. But also, it allows me to use Mira as an audience surrogate because she's just as clueless as to the true state of the world as the player is. She's used to introduce the player to the world and it's struggles, basically. But, I would ask that you read the last post I made, about how I would like to incorporate realism into the story. I think then you'll understand why I feel Mira works better as a naive and ignorant person.

 

[Hasido]

It is so fitting that your avatar is grumpy cat.

Anyway, yeah it could be a really great shock if pulled off correctly. If not, all you've done is upset the players who were attached to her.

 

[Cheesepower5]

That remind me some kind of manga I read just for curiosity:

Always in this kind of manga, all the main characters die in a very, very gruesome ways to the point od sickness.....

This kind of game you want to create? Gruesome and sadistic?

Was the manga Akame ga Kiru? [http://www.mangahere.com/manga/akame_ga_kiru/] Because if so, yes. If not, then probably not.

Edit: To clarify...not gruesome and sadistic in itself. More of a...realistic take on high fantasy. If you read the manga I linked, you'll understand.

I read as far as that site goes on that manga and Tatsumi isn't dead yet. What gives!?

 

[Kopikatsu]

It is so fitting that your avatar is grumpy cat.

Anyway, yeah it could be a really great shock if pulled off correctly. If not, all you've done is upset the players who were attached to her.

Well, I should hope they get upset. Otherwise I'd feel like I failed as a writer, because I'd have failed to make my character likable. It's supposed to upset people.

Not upset them like Knack though, where they immediately delete the game and review bomb it, but...you get what I mean, surely.

Besides, I think my second protagonist is a good one. Although, other people might not like them. Well, most people might not like them. Hmm...

Well, the idea is that they start out unlikable because they've only been seen from Mira's perspective the entire time. Once you actually get to play as the character, then you start seeing an entirely new side of the story. But I will say that the second protagonist has raped someone. Many someones. She's also a woman. Go figure. But there is a good explanation given for it. An extremely good reason, actually. You'll have to take my word for it for now.

Of course, if you read my post at the end of the second page, then I'd probably be spoiling more with this post than I meant to spoil. Whoops.

Edit: I'm going to point out now, there are no sex scenes in the game currently, nor do I plan to make any. So...sorry, people who wanted to see some hot 16 on 32 bit action, but it probably ain't happenin'.

 

[Callate]

Well, I wouldn't say that it couldn't work, but if I'd invested much time in such a game and felt the sudden twist wasn't in service of anything more than the author's sadism, I'd be pretty pissed off. And not in a "wow, that's new and different" way, but rather in a "gee, thank you ever so much for making me play a game that's for your entertainment" kind of way.

In a short-form, experimental game setting, it could probably work. For something longer, it had better have something else going for it- a clear sense of satire, the revelation that you've been playing the bad guys, something. Once a game is "in the wild", it can't exist only for its creator's sake any longer if it's going to be considered a successful work, artistically or commercially.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Well, I wouldn't say that it couldn't work, but if I'd invested much time in such a game and felt the sudden twist wasn't in service of anything more than the author's sadism, I'd be pretty pissed off. And not in a "wow, that's new and different" way, but rather in a "gee, thank you ever so much for making me play a game that's for your entertainment" kind of way.

In a short-form, experimental game setting, it could probably work. For something longer, it had better have something else going for it- a clear sense of satire, the revelation that you've been playing the bad guys, something. Once a game is "in the wild", it can't exist only for its creator's sake any longer if it's going to be considered a successful work, artistically or commercially.

I hate to keep pointing to it, but I would recommend that you read the post I made at the end of the second page. Strictly speaking, you will be playing the bad guys despite their motive being to help people. I mean, Mira's motivation and goals will be more than just what relates to the war, but...yeah.

 

[The Madman]

Sounds pointlessly depressing to me, but then I'm not a fan of G.R.R.Martins work either for precisely that reason. Still he seems to be doing well for himself so there must be some audience out there for fantasy masochism stories.

I should warm however that the whole 'kill the protagonist' is a fairly common trope in fiction. Seriously, it pops up a lot. Depressing endings are even more common. Thing is a lot of the time killing off the protagonist just stupid as it's really hard to kill off a protagonist in such a way that either A: people don't get frustrated and just stop reading (Or playing in this case) B: Has meaning the player can interpret, because if there isn't a satisfying meaning or reasoning behind everything it just leads back to A.

Don't just kill a character because you want to kill them or for shock factor, that never works. We humans are wired to try and seek meaning in things, and if we find out the meaning was that the author (Or game developer in this case) just wanted to mess with the reader (Player) then that just leads back to situation A yet again where everyone gets frustrated and leaves.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Sounds pointlessly depressing to me, but then I'm not a fan of G.R.R.Martins work either for precisely that reason. Still he seems to be doing well for himself so there must be some audience out there for fantasy masochism stories.

I should warm however that the whole 'kill the protagonist' is a fairly common trope in fiction. Seriously, it pops up a lot. Depressing endings are even more common. Thing is a lot of the time killing off the protagonist just stupid as it's really hard to kill off a protagonist in such a way that either A: people don't get frustrated and just stop reading (Or playing in this case) B: Has meaning the player can interpret, because if there isn't a satisfying meaning or reasoning behind everything it just leads back to A.

Don't just kill a character because you want to kill them or for shock factor, that never works. We humans are wired to try and seek meaning in things, and if we find out the meaning was that the author (Or game developer in this case) just wanted to mess with the reader (Player) then that just leads back to situation A yet again where everyone gets frustrated and leaves.

Well, like I've said, I'm not adverse to cliches (or tropes, in this instance).

The moral of the game, or at least the first part, is basically 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions'. Actually, I think I'm going to add my explanation of the world to the OP, because I keep pointing back to it. My intention is to impress on the player that while Mira's character may not have finished her development arc, her story can go no further.

 

[Callate]

I hate to keep pointing to it, but I would recommend that you read the post I made at the end of the second page. Strictly speaking, you will be playing the bad guys despite their motive being to help people. I mean, Mira's motivation and goals will be more than just what relates to the war, but...yeah.

Ah, I missed that (clearly). Apologies if my post wasn't more helpful.

 

[Kopikatsu]

I hate to keep pointing to it, but I would recommend that you read the post I made at the end of the second page. Strictly speaking, you will be playing the bad guys despite their motive being to help people. I mean, Mira's motivation and goals will be more than just what relates to the war, but...yeah.

Ah, I missed that (clearly). Apologies if my post wasn't more helpful.

It's fine. I do need more feedback about specifics though, like the map design and such. On all of the games that I've been a collaborator on, I mostly did conceptual design, writing, and proof reading the LUA scripting. (I can't code to save my life, but I'm really good at finding errors and the cause of them for some reason)

So, story I think I have a good handle on. The rest of it? Not so much.

Anywho, (This part isn't directed at anyone in particular), I've spent most of my free time mucking around with coding as opposed to doing anything worthwhile, so this is where it's at at the moment:


I've decided to do something a bit different for the initial bit with the Heroes, and so the dialogue during the fight will change. Instead, I'm going to have Varkus' mind be corrupted by what'll happen, and has a mini-boss fight against an Undead with a funky background. Then when the battle ends, it's revealed that the 'monster' was actually the village elder that he'd struck down during his delusion. That turns the Heroes and villagers against him because they don't understand what happened, at which point the Demon that tricked him into killing the Elder offers him power to survive the encounter if he surrenders his body to it.

But, it'll still take a whole lot more coding and updating to even get to that point. I know it doesn't seem like too much has changed since the last video, but that's because most of what I've done is behind the scenes work. Like, now you can run diagonally and use WSAD to move instead of the arrow keys. And other stuff. I've also coded in a few custom states to use for various scenes, like now I can do a Galuf-type thing where the character withstands insane amounts of punishment without dying. Dunno if I will, though. I thought about doing it for Varkus vs the Heroes to instill the feeling of desperation into the player, but I don't think it would work very well. I mean, it's super early in the game. There's no time to really 'get to know' Varkus, or show his limits, so it wouldn't have the kind of effect that I'd like.

Shit's hard, I tell you what. 'Course, spending all my time making videoes instead of coding probably isn't helping. Ha! Well, the next video will be opening + initial cutscene + miniboss + cutscene + Hero boss + cutscene. So basically from the beginning to razing your hometown. Then I'll not make one for a long while after that, probably.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Here is my reccomendation. Start the game focusing on the Mira's point of view, the harshness of the war, so the player feels compelled to end it, but leave hints of the justifications here and there. A bit before you plan to kill off Mira, hit her and the player with a ton of the nessicities of the war. This will cause Mira and the player question the reason for the war. Obviously, from what you say of Mira, she will decide in the end that she is right. Her death should come shortly after that.

Also, make sure her death is not entirely expected and reflects something of her character.

That is essentially what I was thinking of doing. It's kind of hard to talk about it, because I want to keep the second protagonist a secret. Like I've said earlier, I think it's actually something that's pretty unique and I really like how it plays out in my head. I just hope it goes as well on paper (well, whatever notepad is called. Digital paper?)

I'm still not entirely sure how I want Mira's death to play out, though. I do know that I want either one of two people to kill her. I'm leaning towards one much more than the other, though. Her older sister is one of the two, and is the one that I'm not feeling too strongly about. I could twist it in any number of ways to support the narrative- like the guilt over having to kill her sister to maintain the status quo drives her to take up Mira's cause. But I don't think I want to take the story in that direction. I'd like to think that after Mira dies, some do view her as a martyr and take up arms with one of her former companions leading the rebels. But the rest of them split up and do their own thing, only to be forced back into action later. Or maybe they join Central because they realize that the status quo must be preserved at any cost. Maybe some have secluded themselves away to preform research to try and improve agricultural methods in order to reduce the impact the army will have if the war is ended, and other things to strengthen the infrastructure to allow for the war's end.

I feel like there's a lot that could be done. But, I'm probably thinking too far into the future for this. After all, I'm still working on Varkus' game. Spoilers:

Spoiler

Varkus will be the one commanding the demon/monster army in Mira's game. Woo, continuity.

Varkus' game won't be very long, though. At least, I don't plan for it to be. It's mostly just for me to relearn how to do LUA coding and such, as well as build the foundation for Mira's game. Like the lifebars and such.

Right now, I'm trying to figure out how to code a script that causes someone's skills to change at a certain point in a battle. Sorta hard.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Weeeeeeell, double posting is a sin.

Oh well. I learned that I can't do creepy. (Ignore Varkus' dialogue. It's meant to be fairly campy, and there's a typo in there anyway)


I want the graveyard thing to be unsettling. Not scary persey, just unsettling. I want people to feel uncomfortable simply by being there. So...the enemies. I didn't show all of them, but there was enough to get the point across.

So! What's more unsettling? Something like a giant pile of bones on legs saying things like 'Come closer...' 'No, don't run...' 'Come back...please...' while relentlessly attacking you, having enemies damage/kill themselves with skills named 'So Cold...' 'No More...' 'X harmed itself!', or a combination of both?

 

[Kopikatsu]

Do the game for yourself not the players. I liked the idea, though if it's a game, you should probably focus more on the gameplay.

You have my sword.

Battle systems are haaaaard.

To be honest, doing it in ARPG format would be easier (It would be harder to set up, but it would be much easier and save a looooot of time in the long run), but it wouldn't have nearly as much flexibility as the current FTB system.

'Upgrading' the icons would also allow me to improve on the battle system, but I don't really want to do that either. Not because I don't want the gameplay to be fun, but...I really, really love sprites and sprite-based games. I won't give them up for nobody. GO NIPPON ICHI.

 

[John Connor M]

If you are going to go the whole killing off the main character that you've been trying to get your audience to invest in and like then you have to handle it carefully. Take for e.g. a certain event in FF7 (you know what I'm talking about) which was quite well done, drove the story and created an emotional moment yet quite a few people still rage about it "why couldn't I use a phoenix down?" etc.

Obviously don't compromise your vision, but I'd advise getting someone with writing experience to once over your 'script' or even just general plot. Also don't worry about people stealing your ideas, ideas are worthless, people who want to make games usually want to make their idea so they won't steal yours.

Atmosphere is very hard to create, with the aesthetic of the game I'd say it'll be pretty hard to create and may even feel like a jarring shift of tone if you've established it as most jrpgs are. Music is important, take for e.g. SH2, that manages atmosphere through an unreliable narrator, skewed perspective, amazing enemy design and most importatly music.

That's a lot of writing and I could honestly give more constructive criticism, but I feel like most of it goes without saying, watching extra credits (certain episodes) will help with regard to pacing/character development/general dos and donts.

EDIT : Forgot to mention that from the videos it actually looks promising, the retro feel will allow you to deliver a great narrative without needing a lot of visuals, kind of reminds me of the Golden Sun series (not the battle system) in a good way.