So it seems Hotline Miami 2 has rape in it...

[Lieju]

Here's my problem with how rape is depicted in media:

It's way too often put in there to get in sex, because heavens, no, we can't have women and men engaging in consensual sex and women wanting sex. Think of the children!

And this is a problem with stuff aimed at women too. Look at 50 shades, and how the main female character must be coerced and raped by the main male lead(because she must stay innocent, and not actively pursue sex), and how this is presented as romantic.

In a game like this I don't see it as such a problem, because the whole thing is shocking violence.

I do think it's silly, though, how gamers are so quick to be offended by any criticism they imagine because they want to rally against feminists or whatever.

The only people I see getting upset over this are people who want to get upset at people criticizing rape in games.

Pretty much this. The whole obsession with virginity is actually blatantly fucking unhealthy, there's nothing wrong with being a virgin but people are treating rape as something romantic because enjoying sex is somehow wrong.

It's not that the view is that enjoying sex is wrong, exactly, it's that women should not go looking for sex actively, or be sexually experienced. And just magically know how to be good in bed when she has sex for the first time.

The problem is often, (like in 50 shades) that the female lead must be prsented as 'innocent', and coerced into sex (and outright raped), which is then justified with 'she enjoyed it, so it's not rape', which is fucking disgusting.
This is the idea that's sold to women as 'romantic'.

But of course rape is also outright fetishized.

The US media has a very unhealthy relationship with sex.

Though, to be fair, the two often go hand in hand. Criticism can very easily lead to censorship, and forcing artists to change their viewpoint for the sake of another person's own ideals is censorship.

I'm hoping that, if the tides turn, Dennaton stands their ground.

I guess Yahtzee is then the most pro-censorship game-journalist, then, and all the complaints about XBone are gamers being pro-censorship and everyone should just say positive things about any product.

I'm really tired of people hiding from criticism with 'you're trying to censor me!'.
Especially when it comes to something like the portrayal of women in games.

If I criticise COD for being linear and dull, no-one is yelling at me for trying to censor it, for some reason...

The freedom of experession doesn't mean freedom from opposing viewpoints.

 

[Yuuki]

I'm just sick and tired of this new-wave feminist bullshit that arises and forces artists to censor their work because it "paints women in a bad light."

Please don't use the word censorship like this. It's already been said in this very thread that criticism is not censorship. Feminists are trying to bring a different perspective to the industry, which it sorely needs. Encouraging the creation of more female-friendly art is not censorship.

Encouraging the creation of female-friendly art =/= discouraging the creation of not-female-friendly art. One doesn't "replace" the other, there is endless room for both to co-exist.

Unfortunately this new wave of videogame/internet feminists feels that the first step to making media/art more female-friendly is to criticize what ISN'T female-friendly, pointing a finger at the artist and yelling "I am criticizing your work, it offends me as a female, stop doing it! Stop it! Stop it!".
To which the artist can only reply "Thank you for your feedback. But as long as I have a market to sell to, I will keep making what sells. Your feedback has been noted, now kindly fuck off and ***** about something else." Or at least I wish artists/developers had the balls to say that -_-

I'm all for freedom of speech/opinion and open criticism of every form of art. I actually want to see the feminists succeed in their ultimate goal of having more female-friendly art/media...but unfortunately most of them are THICK and can't comprehend how the entertainment industry and the market in general works. They believe that a market can't possibly exist for anything that they don't like.

Tomorrow they can make a videogame about a super-powered female who runs around the city chopping men's balls off while super-powered males in turn rape women en-masse and I wouldn't even bat an eye, because if the market for such a game existed then they are free to indulge in it while I am equally free to continue not giving a shit.

A society where an artist is free to create anything and doesn't get bashed for "offending" a certain group with fictional work will be the most peaceful society in existence.
Hmm...actually such a society does exist, it's called Japan! Nobody judges you (or cares) about what sort of crazy fantasies you indulge in as long as it doesn't affect anyone else negatively, doesn't break the law and you have the decency not to go around blabbing on about it. If only the rest of the world took a clue from them

 

[Something Amyss]

All I remember from the Tomb Raider thing was a lot of people yelling "LAURAS GONNA GET RAPED" and it turned out she wasn't.

all we had to go one was the developer talking about it as rape and visual and audio cues. What fools we were to believe THAT.

lol.

Please don't ***** at others for not portraying the controversies right when you can't get them right your self. The "defininng, character-building moment for Lara Croft," was never about the actual assault.

That's not how the dev portrayed it, and it still looks like some heavy retconning went on after the fact. But if it makes you feel better to claim I'm misportraying people when the OP admitted he was just stirring the pot, then *shrug*

 

[Gigano]

Well, the movie Irréversible had rape in it too.

Since this is supposed to be a sort of throwback "exploitation flick" game, it'd be strange for it to not feature any sexual violence. 70's and 80's exploitation films were choke full of it, so if it's paying homage to them, it'd be strange to leave out that element entirely.

Plus, easy controversy = free publicity... which is also how exploitation films did things.

 

[Six Ways]

snip

I think you're seeing this from the wrong perspective.

The aim is not to force self-censorship. The aim is to change attitudes; to show people the underlying sexism which informs a lot of stuff. To get devs to think about their position, and hopefully say "Yeah, I get where you're coming from now. This isn't cool." The result being a progression in how art is made in the first place, not censorship of that art.

I'd also point out that more and more devs appear to be honestly taking this on board, as does much of the media. I don't hold with your view that most devs want to tell feminists to fuck off, that they only consider the "market". Publishers? Probably - they're in it for the money. But it's not like they have the artistic integrity that you're defending in your post. Devs themselves seem to be responding well.

Also, consider from a feminist perspective - there's no point in censorship if people still hold subconsciously sexist attitudes. That doesn't change society.

forcing artists to change their viewpoint for the sake of another person's own ideals is censorship.

Encouraging artists to analyse their subconscious ideals, and reconsider their opinion of the art they want to make, is not.

 

[Archer666]

This is a game where you pour boiling water down peoples throats, dig your thumbs into their eyes until the eyes pop, you brutalize a man who can't fight back and other acts of sickening violence. You play a completely amoral psychopath with no regards to any other human being. Rape is a serious issue and all, but I feel that it fits the tone the game sets up.

 

[Yuuki]

I think you're seeing this from the wrong perspective.

The aim is not to force self-censorship. The aim is to change attitudes; to show people the underlying sexism which informs a lot of stuff. To get devs to think about their position, and hopefully say "Yeah, I get where you're coming from now. This isn't cool." The result being a progression in how art is made in the first place, not censorship of that art.

"This isn't cool". What if they developers are fully aware if some things may not sit well with some people, but added it in regardless because that's how they wanted their art to be? Are they doing it out of a underlying hatred or discrimination against women? That's essentially what the word "sexist" means nowadays, a word used by feminists.

I'd also point out that more and more devs appear to be honestly taking this on board, as does much of the media. I don't hold with your view that most devs want to tell feminists to fuck off, that they only consider the "market". Publishers? Probably - they're in it for the money. But it's not like they have the artistic integrity that you're defending in your post. Devs themselves seem to be responding well.

What drives the market? Consumers. You and me. Where do publishers pull their money from, thin air? Of course not, they get it from consumers - so it's in their best interests to try different things, see what sells well and what doesn't (on the grand scale consumers show their support or dislike with their wallets) and move forward from there.

Also, consider from a feminist perspective - there's no point in censorship if people still hold subconsciously sexist attitudes. That doesn't change society.

"Subconsciously sexist". I don't think you know what that means. It does not make the artist subconsciously sexist if they prefer writing male protagonists instead of female protagonists, for instance. It does not make the artist subconsciously sexist if they decide to include something like rape into their art.

Yes, a female may look at art, point a finger at the artist and say "I find this offensive!". That is their criticism, their opinion and nothing else. Absolutely no conclusion can be drawn whether the artist truly had "subconsciously sexist" motives behind their work.

For example, I know some people who call studios like Team Ninja sexist for designing their female characters with revealing clothing and massively exaggerated jiggle physics. Some people have "concluded" that Team Ninja is truly designing their female characters out of a discriminating hatred (or at least holding negative attitudes) towards women...and I can only laugh at such a notion and pity those who don't understand how markets and industries work.

 

[Legion]

If people bothered to read Scylne's post on the front page you'd see that the developer responded on twitter.

Spoiler: He stated (game spoilers):

There is a twist that they don't show in the footage on Escapist which clearly disqualifies it as a rape scene.

If you want me to spoil it, the second after what you saw in the clip at Escapist that whole level is shown to be a film shoot.

The fact so many people are still raging about it, pretty much shows that people just want to make a big deal out of this stuff, both those complaining that it exists, and those defending it for no reason.

 

[Six Ways]

What if they developers are fully aware if some things may not sit well with some people, but added it in regardless because that's how they wanted their art to be?

I've already said I support the use of rape in this game. I agree with (what I have understood to be) Dennaton's artistic intent with the Hotline Miami franchise. If developers honestly consider the criticism and still feel they're right to do whatever it is they're doing, fine. That doesn't mean people will agree with them though, and criticism may still be aimed at them.

What drives the market? Consumers. You and me. Where do publishers pull their money from, thin air?

The creation of pro-female art isn't going to kill your profits. Perhaps it'll reduce them. Perhaps, in the long term, it'll increase them by expanding the market. Either way, it's not the key point - economic arguments do not change ethics. There may not be profit in fighting inequality, but that's not a good argument not to try.

It does not make the artist subconsciously sexist if they prefer writing male protagonists instead of female protagonists, for instance.

Think about it the other way round. A preference for male protagonists may not be due to subconscious sexism, but subconscious sexism may cause an artist to prefer writing male protagonists. I'm not saying "A->B, therefore B->A". But the fact that there is such a conspicuous imbalance suggests there may be a systemic societal bias at play. [footnote]Consider - if it was purely unbiased preferences, you'd expect to see a more even (not totally even, mind, and possibly not even particularly close, but more even than in reality) split between developers writing male and female protagonists.[/footnote]

Some people have "concluded" that Team Ninja is truly designing their female characters out of a discriminating hatred (or at least holding negative attitudes) towards women...and I can only laugh at such a notion and pity those who don't understand how markets and industries work.

Another oft-used fallacy - that "market forces" and "sexism" are mutually exclusive. The market's imbalance towards males could be caused by subconscious societal sexism. In my personal opinion, that is highly likely.

Captcha: Pants on the ground.

 

[Yuuki]

Another oft-used fallacy - that "market forces" and "sexism" are mutually exclusive. The market's imbalance towards males could be caused by subconscious societal sexism. In my personal opinion, that is highly likely.

Are you going to tell me with a straight face that after watching this video (it's only 2 mins long, don't worry )...


...you're going to continue to maintain that "subconscious societal sexism" is highly likely as a factor?

Here's a free hands-on lesson - Google Image search "game development team" and let me know what you see on the first page of results. Is subconscious societal sexism at work in all those cases? Hmmmm?

 

[Six Ways]

snip

Surely you see that subconscious societal sexism could be why there are so few female game devs? And I absolutely agree that if we had more women as game devs, then we'd be a long way towards solving the problem. But if the industry is hostile to women, that's less likely to happen. Again, this isn't an either-or thing[footnote]Also, the idea that men shouldn't even try to create female-friendly art? Not buying that.[/footnote].

 

[Yuuki]

Surely you see that subconscious societal sexism could be why there are so few female game devs?

Oh, so women not being interested in Programming/3D Design and choosing other careers = societal sexism.

Lack of male interest in becoming social workers = societal sexism.

Lack of female interest in F1 Racing = societal sexism.

Lack of male interest in becoming nurses = societal sexism.

Lack of female interest in becoming construction workers = societal sexism.

Lack of male interest in the beauty industry = societal sexism

So THAT's what societal sexism means. I finally get your definition. And apparently it's always a bad/negative thing that needs to be fixed/addressed. Wow.
They tried to forcefully change the gender ratios in occupations in Norway (repeatedly), I'll let you research how that turned out.

 

[Something Amyss]

And people will still throw a ***** fit over it because "m-muh feelings!"

'Course, that usually doesn't happen. The lack of hysteria here is a pretty good example.

So many people in this thread swatting at ghosts, it's crazy.

Gamers are so afraid of real feminists they have to attack the ones made of straw.

I'm just sick and tired of this new-wave feminist bullshit that arises and forces artists to censor their work because it "paints women in a bad light."

You're right, people shouldn't criticise free expression. I hope one day, you will see the irony here.

Uh oh. A game is getting mixed up with the r-word. Even though it appears that the scene is... well a scene I doubt that will appease the angry mobs. Remember how they got pissed off at the not-actually-a-rape-scene-in-any-way in Tomb Raider? This will probably be worse. There's butt-crack!

So I'll be holing up in my bunker and playing Half Life 2 until the inevitable shitstorm blows over.

Seems appropriate.

Well, the movie Irréversible had rape in it too.

Since this is supposed to be a sort of throwback "exploitation flick" game, it'd be strange for it to not feature any sexual violence. 70's and 80's exploitation films were choke full of it, so if it's paying homage to them, it'd be strange to leave out that element entirely.

Plus, easy controversy = free publicity... which is also how exploitation films did things.

I wonder if that means HM has failed. The only "controversy" that's come up so far is from people insisting there will be controversy from those imaginary feminazis who obsess over every portrayal of rape in media ever....

Since it hasn't met any controversy, does that mean it's missed the point and/or failed?

 

[Six Ways]

Oh, so women not being interested in Programming/3D Design and choosing other careers = societal sexism.
Lack of male interest in becoming social workers = societal sexism.
Lack of female interest in F1 Racing = societal sexism.
Lack of male interest in becoming nurses = societal sexism.
Lack of female interest in becoming construction workers = societal sexism.
Lack of male interest in the beauty industry = societal sexism

Um, basically yeah. Considering, for example, from birth we get boys to play with cars and girls to play with dolls, is it that much of a stretch to ask how much gender difference may, in fact, be non-biological?

You seem reluctant to consider the possibility that the imbalance in the games industry could be cultural. I'm not trying to force you to agree - just to not reject it out of hand. Seriously, not trying to be antagonistic here.

And apparently it's always a bad/negative thing that needs to be fixed/addressed. Wow.

No. Never said that. But a bit of critical analysis, and asking why these imbalances exist, isn't too much to ask.

They tried to forcefully change the gender ratios in occupations in Norway (repeatedly), I'll let you research how that turned out.

I've been very explicit about being non-forceful.

 

[oreso]

Oh, so women not being interested in Programming/3D Design and choosing other careers = societal sexism.
Lack of male interest in becoming social workers = societal sexism.
Lack of female interest in F1 Racing = societal sexism.
Lack of male interest in becoming nurses = societal sexism.
Lack of female interest in becoming construction workers = societal sexism.
Lack of male interest in the beauty industry = societal sexism

Um, basically yeah. Considering, for example, from birth we get boys to play with cars and girls to play with dolls, is it that much of a stretch to ask how much gender difference may, in fact, be non-biological?

There are certainly non-biological factors at work. Unfortunately, there also seems to be some significant biological ones.

Someone else will have to dig up the link, but research has been done to show that babies are attracted to stereotypical toys even from as early as one-day old. Which presents something of a problem if you wish to state that all gender identity is societal, and none of it is biological.

And as Yuuki mentioned, our most gender equal societies, who have invested quite a lot of money into trying to shift these demographics, end up with no more equal numbers than societies that make no effort at all and would be regarded as pretty sexist.

It's not that people haven't tried it. Or that everyone is being tricked or cajoled into acting according to their gender role. Large numbers of people just appear to freely choose it.

But still, of course, with game developers, we don't need vast numbers of people to create games. So I don't think it's a total loss or anything.

What practical measures would you suggest?

 

[Hazy]

-cut-

-cut-

Well, it seems I spoke out of turn, since the scene looks mild enough to abstain from criticism territory.

Videogames, huh?

[small]Of course, this doesn't mean Patricia Hernandez won't write an article about it influencing rape culture, but she has the journalistic credibility of a goat[/small]​

 

[Something Amyss]

Well, it seems I spoke out of turn, since the scene looks mild enough to abstain from criticism territory.

At this point, I'm not sure if you're being petulant or actually missing the point being made that the reality of the situation is nobody's making a fuss.

And your response has NOTHING to do with Lieju, so, I'm not even sure what to say there.

Patricia Hernandez

And if she doesn't write an article saying that, I'm sure someone will be happy to doctor a fake one, attribute it to her, and post it as proof like they have already with her previously. And I'm sure that this will be proof enough for you folks to feel validated despite not being real. I mean, you yourself keep bringing her up though she's done nothing to merit it as yet.

 

[Hazy]

Well, it seems I spoke out of turn, since the scene looks mild enough to abstain from criticism territory.

At this point, I'm not sure if you're being petulant or actually missing the point being made that the reality of the situation is nobody's making a fuss.

And your response has NOTHING to do with Lieju, so, I'm not even sure what to say there.

Oh, okay, allow me to put it in the much needed layman's terms: I'm withdrawing from the debate. I kicked up dust over nothing. I messed up. Frankly, I don't really care enough about feminism to debate the semantics of it.

I decided to tell both of you that, hence the quote.

And if she doesn't write an article saying that, I'm sure someone will be happy to doctor a fake one, attribute it to her, and post it as proof like they have already with her previously. And I'm sure that this will be proof enough for you folks to feel validated despite not being real. I mean, you yourself keep bringing her up though she's done nothing to merit it as yet.

You act as if the nuggets she has already made aren't warrant enough to cast a valid opinion on her.

Yeah, Hernandez sure does some hard hitting journalism huh?

 

[reiem531]

Jesus, who thought emulating Custer's Revenge was a good idea?

What's so bad about rape and sex? Do you really think that after watching rape and excessive violence videos at the same time or simultaneously a subject will want to rape somebody more than to kill (in the way dumb populists define a possibility of an event X and how it counteracts with the possibility of Y)?

People survive rape and might not want to be reminded of it.

People survive being stabbed and might not want to be reminded of it.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

It seems kinda obvious to me.

You cant upset the victims of murder. You cant make them have flashbacks to their death. You cant offend them by making the action that killed them a sport. You cant make a simulation of their death for kids to relive over and over and over and then show it to them. Because they died.

You CAN do this with a rape surivor. Theres the difference.

The difference between assault survivors and rape survivors as well is the aspect of personal space and security in the crime.

Rape is taking something intimate and special that you share with those you love and violating it in every possible way to make it cruel and painful and horrific. It pretty much fucks up a huge part of your psychee forever. Being assaulted is usually less of a personal affair. They usually just want your wallet. Unless its extreme circumstances it doesnt violate you on a personal level to the degree rape does.

Now i dont think that media shouldnt have rape IN it or explore the issue of rape. However making the character commit rape and making committing the rape a sport is pretty distasteful. Theres something impersonal about making a headshot. Forcing another person to surrender their inner most safe place to your twisted desires is kinda personal and weird and implies a level of sadism that a detatched "Yay i shot some very far away pixels" doesnt.

The media needs to explore rape and highlight the issue. Forcing a player to commit a rape doesnt really help this in a meaningful way. Im not gonna say they CANT do it or it shouldnt be allowed. I just find it personally extremely distasteful. Id find any violent act thats as personal and involves mental and physical violation as distasteful as rape in a game.