So it seems Hotline Miami 2 has rape in it...

[ShiningAmber]

I'll admit that I didn't watch the game trailer. As a survivor I don't want to.

I think if people want to play that game, that's fine. I don't take issue with it and I'm not here trying to censor rape from video games. It's a real world problem and a big issue.

But, it is a game and something anyone can pick up. I have every right to say that I don't like it. I don't like rape. I don't know why someone would want to play a game where they rape someone. But, to each his own, I guess.

And to those belittle the whining rape victims in this thread: shame on you. To be raped, for me, was the single worst thing that ever happened to me. The fact that some man thought it was his right to purposely violate me and leave scars on my face and hands as a constant reminder is no laughing matter. I didn't ask for it. But, he left me with something so awful and consuming and I can't get rid of it. There are days that are a fight just to convince myself that it might just be worth it to get up in the morning, that maybe today it will be better. He took something from me that I will never get back and made something that was supposed to be precious twisted and sicking to me. Don't belittle those who suffer from something that you most likely don't.

While you sit there and defend your right to rape in a video game, those who have actually suffered the real ordeal stand back and go 'Really? It means that much to you?'

I'm not here to take away your right. I'm here to tell you that it's a sick thing to defend, but it is your right to play your games. But, don't your dare say that the rape survivors are bitching. God forbid the rape victims say something that make YOU uncomfortable.

 

[broca]

Gender is societal. Sex is biological. Gender is learned. Gender is a combination of Repetition, Citation and Representation (Butler). Like any form of identity, it is built up over time. To badly paraphrase, "Identity is revealed to us as something to be invented rather than discovered" (Bauman). The difference between the biological sexes will have no effect on the toys that a child will choose at a very young age, an experiment to try and prove this would be inherently unethical (EDIT: Sorry, I did not explain that. I could, if I wanted to, it would just take ages and I need a coffee first. Might need to bounce things off me mate doing PPE or just find the notes I made a year or two ago).

Sorry, but i have to disagree. Yes, gender is societal by definition, but as almost always when discussing nurture and nature (or society and biology) you can't talk about one without the other, as human behavior is (most times) a complex interaction of both. I think most people would agree that society is based on biology and in turn interacts with it. As there are clear biological differences between males and females even at a young age it is possible that there are differences in e.g. attention for certain visual stimuli (e.g. toys) which in turn lead to different behavior which in turn lead to differences in a society. Not that i would claim that it is like this, i'm just saying you can't just disconnect gender and sex. I also don't understand why experiments to test this hypothesis would be unethical - or do you mean like "raising some newborn in a (theoretical) gender-free environment to exclude gender as confounding variable"? That would of course be deeply unethical.

You say from as early as "Day One", strange that at a time in which children have no concept of permanence (Several years of Psych, because I could), that they have the ability to recognise what is and is not a male or female choice!

You seem to have it backwards here: No one is claiming that newborn choose certain stimuli because they "identify" them as typical male or female. The argument is that for biological reasons male and female even at young ages find different
stimuli interesting which are therefore become defined in society as male or female (again, i don't really believe in this theory).

And remember, that Psychology (Which is what you are referring to there) is out of date within 20 years, if you are being generous.

I don't really understand what you're trying to say here. Do you mean that psychology as a science will lose it importance in the next 20 years? Or that psychology is behind 20 years (in what? in relation to whom?)? Or something else entirely?

 

[Six Ways]

snip

Just want to say thanks for your post. It brings some much-needed perspective to this.

 

[Mrsoupcup]

People survive rape and might not want to be reminded of it.

"There has to be something substantially wrong with a group of people that take no issue with seeing a man get his eyes thumbed out or someone getting scalded to death with boiling water, but draw the line when a diegetically fictionalized portrayal of rape comes into the fray."

Why do you social justice warriors insist that ANYTHING that dares to even explore the darker side of the human condition should be censored just because someones SUBJECTIVE feelings might get hurt?

Source for my quote:


I'm sick of all these hypocrites on the escapist who will defend games that are ultra violent from all these conservative types, but then send someone to the wolves for having sexualized depictions of women or explore sexual violence.

 

[Mrsoupcup]

I'm here to tell you that it's a sick thing to defend.

And I'm here to tell you it's art, and I would gladly die defending it and any other creative work from people like you.

No one can force you to view any media that may upset you, so don't you dare try to belittle the creative works of an artist just because they explore areas you don't like.

 

[Six Ways]

I'm here to tell you that it's a sick thing to defend.

And I'm here to tell you it's art, and I would gladly die defending it and any other creative work from people like you.

No one can force you to view any media that may upset you, so don't you dare try to belittle the creative works of an artist just because they explore areas you don't like.

Ok dude, before you get shitty with the bona fide rape survivor, maybe take the time to read their post properly. The one which explicitly does not advocate censorship.

For that matter, your previous post jumps to the exact same conclusions about criticism being a call for censorship, and we've spent a lot of time on this thread explaining that censorship is repulsive and not what we want. So show us some respect too.

 

[ShiningAmber]

I'm here to tell you that it's a sick thing to defend.

And I'm here to tell you it's art, and I would gladly die defending it and any other creative work from people like you.

No one can force you to view any media that may upset you, so don't you dare try to belittle the creative works of an artist just because they explore areas you don't like.

What do you mean 'people like me'? People like me who are victims of what you're defending? Didn't I just say it's your right to it and even though I suffer from the repercussions of what you defend, I defend your right to it even though it disgusts me?

I will see it as a sick thing to defend. Rape is sick. Until you're laying absolutely powerless, being brutally penetrated and screaming your lungs out while you're being beaten senseless, maybe you'll understand.

I will defend your right to your art. I don't like it. But, I will. Read what I write next time.

 

[ShiningAmber]

I'm here to tell you that it's a sick thing to defend.

And I'm here to tell you it's art, and I would gladly die defending it and any other creative work from people like you.

No one can force you to view any media that may upset you, so don't you dare try to belittle the creative works of an artist just because they explore areas you don't like.

Ok dude, before you get shitty with the bona fide rape survivor, maybe take the time to read their post properly. The one which explicitly does not advocate censorship.

For that matter, your previous post jumps to the exact same conclusions about criticism being a call for censorship, and we've spent a lot of time on this thread explaining that censorship is repulsive and not what we want. So show us some respect too.

Thank you. I really appreciate your kind words and defense in a place I usually see the opposite. It really means a lot to me.

Thank you.

 

[Six Ways]

Thank you. I really appreciate your kind words and defense in a place I usually see the opposite. It really means a lot to me.

Hey, no worries. Seriously, if I was to express even half of the disgust I feel right now I'd be perma-banned instantly.

 

[Mrsoupcup]

Snip

I felt you were being dismissive to the material actually being art because it has rape in it.

If you weren't I apologize.

bona fide rape survivor

I don't know that and neither do you, I don't take anyones word for something like that online.

For that matter, your previous post jumps to the exact same conclusions about criticism being a call for censorship, and we've spent a lot of time on this thread explaining that censorship is repulsive and not what we want. So show us some respect too.

None of the criticism I've seen has been valid, just people rambling about how it's a sensitive issue and that it might hurt someones feelings.

 

[Six Ways]

I felt you were being dismissive to the material actually being art because it has rape in it.

Your post doesn't look anything like that. Your post looks like a rant against censorship, railing against a previous post which explicitly does not call for censorship.

I don't know that and neither do you, I don't take anyones word for something like that online.

Benefit of the doubt, buddy. Either way, you could at least treat the issue with some sensitivity rather than the tirade you posted.

None of the criticism I've seen has been valid, just people rambling about how it's a sensitive issue and that it might hurt someones feelings.

So? It's criticism. You can think what you like about the criticism. But you called it censorship, and that's what I called you out on. You're backpedalling. Here are your words:

Why do you social justice warriors insist that ANYTHING that dares to even explore the darker side of the human condition should be censored just because someones SUBJECTIVE feelings might get hurt?

 

[oreso]

I'm here to tell you that it's a sick thing to defend.

And I'm here to tell you it's art, and I would gladly die defending it and any other creative work from people like you.

Your post doesn't look anything like that. Your post looks like a rant against censorship, railing against a previous post which explicitly does not call for censorship.

Although there is certainly a line between calling for censorship and shaming, it is not a broad one.

If you claim that anyone who likes a particular piece of art/theme/style is sick, wrong or what-have-you, then this is certainly shaming. You are not just claiming that it isn't your tastes, you are saying that anyone who does have this taste is evil or mentally ill. This isn't a criticism, but a shaming and denouncement.

From there, I do believe it is a short step to saying, "why should it exist at all then?"

Especially when people link the theme back to what it is portraying, implying some kind of similar severity. This is obviously not the case, and will obviously offend people if you claim otherwise. The Holocaust was sick, but Schindler's List is not sick. Murder and rape is sick, but Hotline Miami is not sick. Even if the media is taken to the most pornographic and exploitative extreme, we are intelligent consumers and we can look at things critically.

-----

Now, as a caveat, we often state our tastes in stronger terms than we perhaps mean, and I hope that is the case here.

 

[Pebblig]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/escapist-news-now/7559-Hotline-Miami-2-Preview

Watch the preview. You can clearly see a fat character raping a woman who's crawling on the floor.

So let me ask the all important question, does that fact that it's retro graphics make it more palatable? After all Tomb Raider couldn't even have an enemy "Aggressively Stalk" it's female protagonist with out the whole internet blowing up.

Yeah I played it at Rezzed last weekend, initially I was like "WUT is my character doing", but then it turns out that you're both actors acting in some movie. Although, tbh I found the storyline to be a little confusing in the first game, so I can expect the second to also not make that much sense. (but still be fun haha)

Edit: I don't think they'd actually implement a finishing move similar to where you smash people's heads in when they're on the floor, but raping instead or like a scripted one...that'd just make people go nuts.

 

[Six Ways]

If you claim that anyone who likes a particular piece of art/theme/style is sick, wrong or what-have-you, then this is certainly shaming. You are not just claiming that it isn't your tastes, you are saying that anyone who does have this taste is evil or mentally ill. This isn't a criticism, but a shaming and denouncement.

It's an opinion. A perfectly understandable, valid opinion, especially from a rape survivor. I'll be honest though, I'm not really interested in discussing the merits of Patrick's post, because I think it was vile. I also think an apology is needed.

 

[PirateRose]

So let me get this straight. OP is trying to make a big deal out of something, they consider not a big deal, because people made a big deal about Tomb Raider potentially using a rape story cliche to make the heroine stronger. Which the OP also considers not a big deal.

Then ironically, the scene OP is bringing up isn't at all what it seems, just like the Tomb Raider scene.(although I'm convinced that the guy in TR probably would have had his way with her corpse after choking her to death cause he seemed like the crazy sicko type to do that).

Now the actual truth behind the uproar of the supposed rape in Tomb Raider. One of the PR guys had a big mouth and said Lara Croft almost gets raped, which caused the uproar. People didn't falsely assume based on the scene alone, a moron at Crystal Dynamics who wasn't involved with the design of the game but is suppose to be representing the company and the game, opened his big, fat, stupid mouth in an attempt to hype up the game and make people want to protect Lara from harm.

That was the initial goal of the advertising for the game. In typical video game advertising, moronic fashion, they took the route that people don't want to play games with female leads anymore, and they believed the best way to get people to buy the game is to make men feel like they will be protecting Lara from harm. Thus, the, "OH MY GOSH SHE ALMOST GET'S RAPED! SHE ALMOST GETS MURDERED! BIG SCARY MEN TRYING TO HURT HER! HEAR HER GIRLY SCREAMS AND SUSPICIOUSLY EROTIC, GASPING MOANS! COME SAVE HER BOYS!" presentation to the game before the uproar made them finally stop. In the end, the game wasn't like that at all, but the advertising and PR team really pushed to make it look like that as much as possible. So much to the point that even the writer for the game said she hated how they were misrepresenting it and that wasn't how she wrote the game to be at all.

 

[Lieju]

"There has to be something substantially wrong with a group of people that take no issue with seeing a man get his eyes thumbed out or someone getting scalded to death with boiling water, but draw the line when a diegetically fictionalized portrayal of rape comes into the fray."

Why do you social justice warriors insist that ANYTHING that dares to even explore the darker side of the human condition should be censored just because someones SUBJECTIVE feelings might get hurt?

Oh, I'm all for exploring darker side of human condition and sexual violence, but when they do a shitty job at it, or put it in just for shock value or sex appeal, why should they be free of criticism?

Some of my favourite books have rape in them, but I don't like it when rape is fetishised or presented as romantic.
And that's what it is most of the time in fiction.


(In case anyone is wondering what those books are that handle rape 'well', 'Men whose teeth were all exactly alike' and 'The Egyptian' are amongst my favourite books and handle an issue like rape in a way that's uncomfortable, but has a point.)

 

[ShiningAmber]

I'm here to tell you that it's a sick thing to defend.

And I'm here to tell you it's art, and I would gladly die defending it and any other creative work from people like you.

Your post doesn't look anything like that. Your post looks like a rant against censorship, railing against a previous post which explicitly does not call for censorship.

Although there is certainly a line between calling for censorship and shaming, it is not a broad one.

If you claim that anyone who likes a particular piece of art/theme/style is sick, wrong or what-have-you, then this is certainly shaming. You are not just claiming that it isn't your tastes, you are saying that anyone who does have this taste is evil or mentally ill. This isn't a criticism, but a shaming and denouncement.

From there, I do believe it is a short step to saying, "why should it exist at all then?"

Especially when people link the theme back to what it is portraying, implying some kind of similar severity. This is obviously not the case, and will obviously offend people if you claim otherwise. The Holocaust was sick, but Schindler's List is not sick. Murder and rape is sick, but Hotline Miami is not sick. Even if the media is taken to the most pornographic and exploitative extreme, we are intelligent consumers and we can look at things critically.

-----

Now, as a caveat, we often state our tastes in stronger terms than we perhaps mean, and I hope that is the case here.

I cannot, literally cannot say a good thing about rape. It is a sick thing. I've seen it. You've got your right to your art and to play it, but take it from someone who has been there, it is sick. It's disgusting. It's vile and heartbreaking. You may not understand what it is like to live in a mindset that was forced upon you.

If I had my way, it wouldn't exist. But, I respect the choices of other people and what they want. Why? Because I know what it feels like to not have a choice respected and have something taken away.

So, yes it will always disgust me. But, I understand.

I will always see it as that. Call it what you will. I can't change it. And I'm not looking to 'censor' anyone's art. I have a right to say what I think of it just as anyone else does even if they disagree with me.

 

[Dendio]

Personally I don't mind seeing these things in M rated games. If its done right, it'll most likely get me emotionally invested in the story.

 

[books of war 13]

I was at the rezzed event where they were showing it that sequence wasn't actually rape it was a porn movie being shot.