So it seems Hotline Miami 2 has rape in it...

[D-Class 198482]

Honestly I'm just kicking the hornets nest.

MAKE IT BUN DEM


You know I just watched Spoilsbury Toast Boy -2 so I doubt I'll be very perterbed

 

[Beat14]

Why should you be concerned? For example, in Mortal Kombat 2011 you see a heart ripped out, a body torn in pieces or in half, hands ripped off, a head crushed etc.

What's so bad about rape and sex? Do you really think that after watching rape and excessive violence videos at the same time or simultaneously a subject will want to rape somebody more than to kill (in the way dumb populists define a possibility of an event X and how it counteracts with the possibility of Y)?

Oh I don't know. Imo when you love some one you naturally want to have sex with them, I am talking about partners here. So you want to love, but every time you get near to that you remember that horrific moment where you get raped. Are you so out of it socially you don't understand that. Functioning with love as a rape victim must be incredibly hard.

Now if you asexual or have become socially numb then yeah, you narrow minded view point and how you got to it makes more sense.

Oh btw love it a strong emotion.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

So let me ask the all important question, does that fact that it's retro graphics make it more palatable? After all Tomb Raider couldn't even have an enemy "Aggressively Stalk" it's female protagonist with out the whole internet blowing up.

I think most of the reaction was owed due to the fact it was Lara Croft, of all people, the one-time Strong Female Protagonist. But that more or less blew over when people actually played the game. Maybe the same thing happens here. I saw the preview and it does look like rape... the same way it looked like rape in the Lara Croft previews. Never judge a game from its trailer, right?

 

[JazzJack2]

Its not about what is more "Special" it is not about "Censorship", it is not about limiting artistic freedom. But if you create something, it is open to criticism.

Saying something is 'offensive' is not a valid criticism of art and if highlighting something as potentially offensive isn't an attempt to open it up for censorship then what is it trying to do? Saying this is 'insensitive' to rape victims provides no actual insight into something as a work of art but instead demeans it's value as art and only considers how it is placed in society ( which is the basis for all calls of censorship. )

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

Why should you be concerned? For example, in Mortal Kombat 2011 you see a heart ripped out, a body torn in pieces or in half, hands ripped off, a head crushed etc.

What's so bad about rape and sex? Do you really think that after watching rape and excessive violence videos at the same time or simultaneously a subject will want to rape somebody more than to kill (in the way dumb populists define a possibility of an event X and how it counteracts with the possibility of Y)?

The fundamental reason is that violence is easily wrangled into a system for a game and, perhaps most importantly, most people would probably agree that violence is, from time to time, an appropriate response to a given situation. By contrast, rape is not readily translated into a game mechanic and relatively few would agree that there any situations where rape is appropriate.

 

[Dense_Electric]

If a player controlling a terrorist gunning down innocent civilians in an airport is acceptable, then I see no reason a player controlling a rapist raping an innocent person is unacceptable.

 

[Loreley]

Everyone going on about ~art~ and ~expression~ here is really being a bit silly; if you put that sort of thing in your trailer (excepting a game that would make dealing with the victims feelings or revenge or something the main plot, which would be quite a different matter), you're not going for the tasteful or the artistic approach. You're using rape as a shock element, rather like a five year old throwing out the latest swear word he has learned at his grandma (and like that five year old, you should probably be ignored). That's not art, that's publicity, because people are not yet as desensitised to rape in video games as they are to violence. That said, until the game is out its hard to actually say what is happening (someone on a different page said it actually happens in the context of an in-game movie) and in case it has to be said, of course that is not ground for censorship. If we'd censor everything that depicted serious issues in a completely idiotic way, we'd have to censor a lot of crap.

My two cents on the notes why portraying rape is more shocking than "traditional" violence: Rape is like a very slow, mentally destructive act of torture that leaves the victim very powerless in the most intimate ways. It also happens solely to women - not in the real world, but in most portrayals in any medium. Given how, let's say problematic the depiction of women in video games still tends to be on a large scale, this is why adding rape to the mix probably is going to cause some knee-jerk reactions.

 

[Dense_Electric]

It also happens solely to women - not in the real world, but in most portrayals in any medium.

Certainly not true. Far Cry 3 featured two rapes (one implied, one experienced by the player), both against men. I don't recall it being implied that the pirates raped either of the two female members of Jason Brody's group.

 

[minimacker]

While it's uncomfortable, it really only goes over the line if it's your own character doing it. You, the player. Which people think it might just be. That's pretty fucked up.

 

[NearLifeExperience]

We should get a game where the sole purpose is RAPE. I've HAD IT with people being totally okay with games that simulate nothing less than mass murders, killing hordes of enemies without even batting an eyelash, and then when it's about inconsensual sex, people cry their eyes out like big babbies. Seriously, what is the deal with that?

 

[oreso]

Everyone going on about ~art~ and ~expression~ here is really being a bit silly; if you put that sort of thing in your trailer... you're not going for the tasteful or the artistic approach. You're using rape as a shock element... That's not art, that's publicity

(Emphasis mine)

While I completely agree with everything else you post, I just want to draw attention to this.

Sometimes art isn't tasteful, and sometimes it uses shock elements, even cheap ones, to make a point.

Hotline Miami 1 was very deliberately as trashy and shocking as it possibly could be, while its storyline was basically a deconstruction of the tired old justifications for mass murder that feature in games. If you wanted to engage with it as art, then it made you think about what you were doing, since there seems to be a whole other world and a whole lot of madness just under the surface of the game's frame.

Contrasting our desensitisation there with other horrific crimes seems like another effective way to bring the message home. How many dead Russians is the sexual torture of an American woman worth?

And it's all a movie. Because don't worry! Nothing is real here. Framed narratives are often used when we want draw attention to the unreality of the current media. It's traumatic fiction within a fiction... and that's somehow better than just traumatic fiction?

In the world of the movie in the game, the rape is real. In the world of the game, the rape is acted.

But in the real world, the rape is a button press, regardless of whether it's a movie or not. It's pixels. An animation. A crude scripted sequence. We're just ascribing these extra values to it because -this- crime matters so much, when we didn't even think twice about the unreal mass murder.

 

[Loreley]

It also happens solely to women - not in the real world, but in most portrayals in any medium.

Certainly not true. Far Cry 3 featured two rapes (one implied, one experienced by the player), both against men. I don't recall it being implied that the pirates raped either of the two female members of Jason Brody's group.

Actually, that's true, I had forgotten that. I still think male characters do not face the threat of rape on such a broadband level as many female characters. Even though usually the game does not go through with it, showing sexual aggression towards women is basically a stock element of many "edgy" villains as well as an element used to make "dark and gritty" worlds more realistic. And while it might be something that would indeed happen, I often find it very tiresome, because a horrific act of sadistic violence is made out to be set dressing, never to be adressed or explored.

Also, the on-screen rape in Far Cry 3 is done by a woman, which does NOT make it less terrible or less of a crime, but I remember seeing Dudebro Comments on the act ("hurpadurp I wouldn't mind being given a potion by her") which would not have happened if it was male on female or male on male. Maybe because women are not seen as so much of a sexual threat? I don't know. Would the reaction have been different if she wasn't conventionally attractive? The lack of reaction over this vs. Lara Croft is certainly very interesting to discuss. But I would see that as more the exception to the rule - I cannot think of even implied rape of a male character in any other video game, though I haven't played everything, of course, and please correct me if I'm wrong -, albeit a very interesting one.

Everyone going on about ~art~ and ~expression~ here is really being a bit silly; if you put that sort of thing in your trailer... you're not going for the tasteful or the artistic approach. You're using rape as a shock element... That's not art, that's publicity

(Emphasis mine)

While I completely agree with everything else you post, I just want to draw attention to this.

Sometimes art isn't tasteful, and sometimes it uses shock elements, even cheap ones, to make a point.
[snip for post length]

This is also an interesting point. I admit I haven't played the first one, so I didn't know to what extent it was parodying or questioning beyond what I saw in the video. As I said, the scene ultimately must be judged in its context, but I still find putting it in the trailer shocking in a way that is very much cheap publicity (any news etc.) and didn't really feel like they were trying to comment on anything for now; the actual game might be very different, as you said. Maybe because I'm a superhero comic reader that sort of thing just makes me go "eh", too - in superhero (DC/Marvel) comics, rape being the shocking new thing is pretty much an old hat already. So I wasn't really actually shocked by this or Lara or any game that features violent dismemberment and other acts of psychotic violence, if I'm completely honest. I've just seen it all too often in another medium that went from "for kids" to "ready to tackle serious issues" and by now I find it a touch annoying whenever the next developer/artist/writer comes around the corner waving the rape flag for attention. If it is implemented in the game as you say, I would actually think about checking it out because judging our responses to and viewpoints on video game violence within a game is a cool idea.

 

[Jesse Billingsley]

Why should you be concerned? For example, in Mortal Kombat 2011 you see a heart ripped out, a body torn in pieces or in half, hands ripped off, a head crushed etc.

What's so bad about rape and sex? Do you really think that after watching rape and excessive violence videos at the same time or simultaneously a subject will want to rape somebody more than to kill (in the way dumb populists define a possibility of an event X and how it counteracts with the possibility of Y)?

Honestly I'm just kicking the hornets nest.

But to be honest, I could see someone being inspired by Hotline Miami in a "Natural Born Killers" "Taxi Driver" kind of way. And I say that with Hotline being my favourite game.

That's the same argument people who believe shooter games are combat simulators use.

I am of the belief that violent games can generate aggressive behavior, but I don't think that games have that much influence on the player to make them act out violently.

 

[oreso]

Thank you again for your thoughtful posts.

Actually, that's true, I had forgotten that. I still think male characters do not face the threat of rape on such a broadband level as many female characters. Even though usually the game does not go through with it, showing sexual aggression towards women is basically a stock element of many "edgy" villains as well as an element used to make "dark and gritty" worlds more realistic. And while it might be something that would indeed happen, I often find it very tiresome, because a horrific act of sadistic violence is made out to be set dressing, never to be adressed or explored.

Sadistic violence -is- set dressing for many genres, unfortunately or not. If your hero is a mass killer, you have to show that the bad guy is at least capable of genocide or sexual violence.

But saying that, there is a couple of factors here:

• 
  * Almost any 'close-in' violence towards women is interpreted as sexual violence, even when the same violence against a man is assumed to be devoid of sexual content. The Tomb Raider 'controversy' is an example, compare to the many deaths male characters experience.
  * The amount of sexual content in games is ridiculously tiny, especially sexually violence. Even in the number of games with characters with genders, and the small subsection of those games with female characters, the small section of THOSE where the female characters are involved with violence, only a small section of THAT is it sexual. Even when girlfriends are captured by villains, they receive at most a single punch or slap, as per more light-hearted or pulpy genre tropes.
  * About the only genre that escapes this is fighting games, I think. Broad rosters usually include many female characters, and all are understandably equal in the pummelling they receive, and the violence is rarely regarded as sexual... unless one of the players trash talks apparently

But I would see that as more the exception to the rule - I cannot think of even implied rape of a male character in any other video game, though I haven't played everything, of course, and please correct me if I'm wrong -, albeit a very interesting one.

A friend of mine once described Catwoman's role in Batman Arkham City as "A predator breaks into a facility full of brutalised people with mental health problems in order to assault, molest and steal from them". ^_^ It's okey if she chokes them with her thighs, or snogs them before kicking them in the head. Sexual violence perpetrated by women gets a pass.

Indeed, one of her frenemies, Poison Ivy, drugs men into being her slaves and stores them in cocoons until she wants to use them. If you reverse the genders, I doubt this would be fine.

But yeah, as with above, sexual violence of any kind is incredibly rare, so I don't think there are many examples.

 

[doodles]

I just had to post this. I was originally going to post something quite unfriendly but I told my friend and he laughed and that fixed my mood.

I always find the outrage from women and sexual violence in media odd. I also find the general public's' acceptance of general violence even odder.

See I could go into examples of violence during my childhood but I dont know. Maybe it's because Im a male. I "got over it".

Im also a 11c1p, who has been shot, shot at, and seen his friends being shot. Ugh. I really want to compare my experiences in the military with that other posters rape experience but in reality does it matter? Both are equally horrible. I dont understand why one atrocious act need to be worse than the other.

now to the meat and grits

I have numerous friends, fellow infantrymen who take anti-psychotics behaviour changing drugs who cant even watch tv and you -exhale- people complain about a bloody game?

Im rare amongst my friends. I play violent games. I love the fear it evokes in me. I sit in arma shaking and sweating my ass off. My good friend cant even hear a loud noise without freaking out. My other friend cant have kids because they would make too much noise, he even sleeps over at my place some nights because he says something spooked him and he is afraid he will hurt his wife.

How many things you think they can do without being bombarded with violence? How many games can they play?
People dont know how good they got it. and I forgot my point. Time for my pills

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Why should you be concerned? For example, in Mortal Kombat 2011 you see a heart ripped out, a body torn in pieces or in half, hands ripped off, a head crushed etc.

What's so bad about rape and sex? Do you really think that after watching rape and excessive violence videos at the same time or simultaneously a subject will want to rape somebody more than to kill (in the way dumb populists define a possibility of an event X and how it counteracts with the possibility of Y)?

Honestly I'm just kicking the hornets nest.

But to be honest, I could see someone being inspired by Hotline Miami in a "Natural Born Killers" "Taxi Driver" kind of way. And I say that with Hotline being my favourite game.

That's the same argument people who believe shooter games are combat simulators use.

I am of the belief that violent games can generate aggressive behavior, but I don't think that games have that much influence on the player to make them act out violently.

No, your right. It's not going to make someone do something.

But if your already heading down that path, you're going to attracted to media that glamorizes violence.

 

[Marik2]

We should get a game where the sole purpose is RAPE. I've HAD IT with people being totally okay with games that simulate nothing less than mass murders, killing hordes of enemies without even batting an eyelash, and then when it's about inconsensual sex, people cry their eyes out like big babbies. Seriously, what is the deal with that?

lol pretty sure there are some japanese games that are nothing but rape

 

[Clowndoe]

Great. Fantastic. I'm glad. As long as there's context, obviously. TV, movies and books have rape, but it's not as much of a big deal there because people have accepted (mostly) over the years that sometimes these things are needed in said mediums because, as something real, rape can be a tool to tell a good story as a plot device or as a way of showing what a character is like. What I saw there is totally fine, if the fat guy is made out to be a total asshole (even if it's the player character), and we use that scene to establish that, or if it's a cutscene that gives more story for the girl, etc, because it might be important to the story.

 

[Annihilist]

So what if it's in the game? Rape is in lots of things. And rape happens in the real world too. Are you saying that art should not be allowed to reflect reality? Or are some things "off limits?" Nothing is off limits for the artist.

Yay sense.

Anyone who loses their shit about this has clearly lost perspective.

 

[ShiningAmber]

I really want to compare my experiences in the military with that other posters rape experience but in reality does it matter? Both are equally horrible. I dont understand why one atrocious act need to be worse than the other.

If you were to tell me, I would listen to you. Both are equally horrible and none worse than the other.