So, lets talk about racism for a minute

[Matthew Kjonaas]

Affirmative Action is a good idea in theory, but there are some key problems with it, specifically the idea that a workplace or a college needs to have X amount of a minority to be diverse enough, and I don't think that it clearly helps end racism.

Agreed since if two people are at the same skill level but one is only proffered because they come from a group it leaves a lasting disadvantage the longer it goes on.

 

[RafaelNegrus]

Affirmative Action is a good idea in theory, but there are some key problems with it, specifically the idea that a workplace or a college needs to have X amount of a minority to be diverse enough, and I don't think that it clearly helps end racism.

Agreed since if two people are at the same skill level but one is only proffered because they come from a group it leaves a lasting disadvantage the longer it goes on.

I'll quote this one, but many people on here have been saying the same sort of thing. Affirmative Action makes no sense if one thinks of it in terms of making up for past actions, but what it's meant to counteract is racism that we continue to see. That racism typically manifests itself when looking at candidates for jobs and the like, in which minorities are seen as less qualified even when they aren't. The issue is that racism is a relatively subconscious thing, and to stop that requires something stronger than just anti-discrimination laws.

Here, take some U.S. unemployment statistics from the Bureau of Labor Statistics
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t02.htm
White unemployment rate March 2012 7.5 percent
Black unemployment rate March 2012 13.7 percent
Asian unemployment rate March 2012 6.2 percent

And I know that this comes into a economic problem as well, as people from poor backgrounds are less likely to have good educations, but if there weren't any racism in the system we wouldn't be seeing these differences, at least not s pronounced as they are.

 

[ElPatron]

Yeah, no. More or less the same conditions? Not buying it. I don't buy that racism won't exist there for instance. And if it does... conditions have changed for those affected. Plus it totally ignores influences from the rest of the world.

Yes, people live in more or less the same conditions. Don't buy it if you don't want.

I mean look at the Treyvon Martin case...first reports by the media would have us believe that Zimmerman was a drunken redneck who just couldn't wait to shoot a black kid. Then it came out "Oh wait...Zimmerman is hispanic and not some drunken white guy? Oh...OH! Well he's not really a hispanic either! He's a WHITE-hispanic!!" "Yeah, but we're still boned because he's a registered democrat and not a republican." "Wellll fuck..."

I hated the whole "skittles and ice tea" thing. It's stupid to argue what Treyvon was carrying if he was beating the shit out of Zimmerman's head. Not to mention the doctored photos, showing pics of Treyvon when he was younger, or even the edited 911 call that made Zimmerman look racist.

Someone even made a drawing of Zimmerman in a uniform with a KKK hoodie. Really? A Hispanic in the KKK?

The police even said that it had been a textbook defensive shot, but the media still tried to cause an outrage in the black community. I seriously hope that there won't be riots in Florida.

 

[Agayek]

If there is no extreme difference, then why bother replying to me? If there is none then zombie's point is irrelevant.

Because you're outright dismissing the entire possibility that people with entirely different cultural, genetic and biological backgrounds can have differences in their mental faculties, and that's completely idiotic. You're so caught up with "EVERYONE IS EQUAL IN EVERYTHING, WAAAA" that you're dismissing logic and reason entirely.

Is there a significant difference in mental ability between races? I don't know (and will gladly say that it's unlikely), and moreover I don't really care. The fact remains however, that it is entirely possible that there is, and dismissing it out of hand because you don't like the implications is patently ridiculous. Until there is hard, scientific evidence that there is no significant difference, dismissing the possibility of such is just plain stupid.

Yeah, no. More or less the same conditions? Not buying it. I don't buy that racism won't exist there for instance. And if it does... conditions have changed for those affected. Plus it totally ignores influences from the rest of the world.

Racism is irrelevant when it comes to determining the physical differences. All that matters is the conditions under which the brain developed. Thus, take a random sample from a place where a large collection of people of a wide variety of races all live together (meaning in very similar conditions), and you can have a decent, objective, unbiased study of the physical differences in brain chemistry and structure between the races.

Doubtful that bias leans in that direction as much as you'd like to suggest. Just check the wikipedia article that was mentioned. You'll find people who gave exactly those conclusions, but their research was found to be less than stellar.

So what you're saying is that you agree with my point that there hasn't been unbiased research on the matter. Got it.

Also, I'm not suggesting anything. I said exactly what I mean: No one's done unbiased research because there's a risk they might discover a finding the public doesn't like and be out of a job. It's not important enough for people to be willing to risk their livelihoods for it, and as such there haven't been unbiased studies on the matter. They might find that blacks are smarter than whites, or that whites have better spatial awareness than asians, or anything of the sort, and when they publish it, someone is inevitably going to get offended and demand that they be fired for misrepresenting their race. Any studies done into the matter thus far have almost entirely been of the type where the conclusion is decided before the experiment even begins and are thus entirely pointless.

Personally, I highly doubt there will be any more of a difference between races than there is between sexes (read: think differently, not any better or worse).

 

[Dansen]

Here we go people social darwinism at its finest! Lets give a big round of applause to everyone here at the Escapist!

...this thread really should be locked...

 

[Agayek]

You're just saying that because you want there to be a difference. I can play that game too, see? Also note that cultural backgrounds aren't simply inherited and I never said they didn't influence performance on a test.

Again with the ad hominem attacks. I don't want there to be a difference, because frankly I don't give a flying fuck if there is a difference.

The only thing I have said in this entire thread is that it is a possibility that must be considered (and an unlikely one at that). Dismissing it without evidence is just as ridiculous as believing it without evidence.

Dismissing it as a real thing until it's shown isn't absurd. Note that the current concensus is that there isn't. Until that changes no reason to go with your pet theory that there is a difference(see I can make stuff up too).

1) It's not my pet theory. I don't know how many times I have say it: I DO NOT THINK THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. I think it's a possibility, no more and no less.

2) Dismissing anything as a possibility without evidence in either direction is absurd at best and outright idiotic at worst. It doesn't matter what it is. It could be a difference in brain chemistry between races or it could be a teapot orbiting Jupiter. It doesn't matter. It's still a possibility. Accepting something as possible does not mean accepting it as likely or inevitable though, and that's something you apparently still need to figure out.

Racism matters when it comes to how they are raised. Ever hear of this amazing thing called 'nurture'? You seem clueless about how tests are done anyway and what might influence them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_%26_intelligence#Stereotype_threat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_%26_intelligence#Education

See, here's the thing, I have never once said anything about intelligence. Everything I have said has been about the actual physical structure of the brain. Know how you test that? Strap your volunteers into an MRI for a bit and ask them questions and see how the brain reacts to it.

Beyond that, it's not terribly hard to eliminate those biases you linked with a properly designed study. For the first one, simply don't let them know you're testing intelligence. Just include the intelligence test as part of a more general test and don't let them know the intelligence part is the important bit.

For the second,that's why I said go to the inner cities where everyone has grown up under similar conditions. How many times do I need to say it? People who grow up in the same neighborhood are going to have very similar levels of education on average, especially in the inner city areas where you're (sadly enough) most likely to get an appropriately high level of ethnic diversity.

The other issues in that article you link can also be addressed but I can't be fucked with coming up with what-ifs all day.

So you're admitting you didn't read the bit where I pointed out people did try to come to those conclusions and were mostly found wanting in their research. Okay.

Dude, again, I FUCKING AGREE WITH YOU ON THIS ALREADY. There has never been unbiased research into the matter (that I've seen at least), thus any studies already done are tainted by bias and are fucking completely useless and should be ignored.

I don't know how I can make this any more explicit. The topic is far too charged and people are far too sensitive about it for anyone to be willing to perform/fund an unbiased study, because there's a risk the results will not be to someone's liking and then they will be out of a job. Forever. Until such a study happens, saying it's true or false with any degree of certainty on the matter, is completely ridiculous. All you can do is say your opinion on the matter, and unfortunately opinions have no bearing whatsoever on fact.

You've somehow got it into your head, because I don't agree with you that it's completely impossible and that there is no inherent physical differences between a Mongoloid, a Negroid, and a Caucasoid, that I'm the Grand Wizard of the local branch of the KKK. Get the fuck over yourself. People are inherently different. Steven Hawking is smarter than both of us combined, and whatever Olympic athlete you care to name is stronger. Why is the existence of such a distinction so abhorrent to you? If the color of a person's skin or structure of their skull is different, it's highly likely other things are different as well. What these things are, I don't know nor do I care, but saying that there can't possibly be a difference in natural ability between different races of humanity is completely ridiculous and flies in the face of everything we know about evolution.

 

[Altorin]

Racism in the real world is based on silly ideas that don't hold up. It's based on the idea that some races are better at different things, and if you take away social factors, it's just not true - human is human. Race only has a correlation link between these "traits" that races apparently have over other races, not a causal link. Asians are "good at math" because they value education over socializing - that's a cultural things. Jews are good with money because their ancestors were FORCED to be money lenders, so banking has been in their families for a LONG time. If you look at any trait, and you'll find a social or cultural reason for it before you have to start looking at their DNA for some racial link.

and after reading some of the other responses on this thread, I think I'll just leave this here

 

[Skratt]

Unfortunately it's one of the few ways you can integrate a previously segregated people into what is considered normal society.

It's not pretty, it's not even really fair, but neither is racism and bigotry which Affirmative Action attempts to fix - not by changing the minds of the current population, but by attrition. Growing up in a mixed society tends to make you more tolerant and can (usually) result in a blending of the cultures (one can hope) in a good way. Which can sometimes explain children who hold different beliefs on the mixing of races than than of generations prior.

Affirmative action takes a LONG time to work, and is generally hampered both by the resentment it fosters in those it disparages against and by creating a cultured belief that the disenfranchised are less capable and thus less deserving of special attention such a law enacts thus creating distrust on both sides further slowing the process down.

It is required because it is attempting to fix a problem with the current environment and unfortunately must be tolerated by those who hold no such segregationist beliefs for the betterment of the society as a whole.

 

[TheVioletBandit]

You said, "I can not abide by someone who thinks another race is less intelligent." well what about another country?

Thinking another country is less intelligent is ethically wrong as well.

By the context, I assume your comment was directed at me, and in reference to my distaste for Nazi ideology. For one, said distaste is not directed at the German people, and is directed at the ideology. For two, I do not think that Nazi's were unintelligent - the opposite was often true. But their intelligence does not make them factually correct or moral, and my only claim is that their ideology is both factually incorrect and immoral.

I have actually agreed with everything you have said, I detest racism in any form. I was just curious if you would contradict yourself by answering my question with something like, "Yeah, Americans are stupid." Anyway, I glad to see that that's not the case. As for the Nazi's (which my original question had nothing to do with, sorry for the misunderstanding) my opinions similar, but far less tasteful or well written as I simply say, "fuck Nazis", and generally feel that no explanation is needed. Nevertheless, I won't demonize the Nazis as I don't think any people/person can be pure evil, but their ideology is reprehensible.

 

[KarlMonster]

I think society should accept that some racial groups are generally better at certain things, so we shouldn't give them special advantages to achieve things in society that, even if it were made slightly easier for them, (compared to groups of people doing well), STILL would not catch up as a people. There are millions of animals on the earth and we have all evolved and are currently evolving. Is it so hard to believe that there are groups of homo erectus/humanoid beings in certain areas of this vast world who have generally significantly lower intellect than other groups of people?

With respect. I should be very careful about offering that opinion.

I'm sure that you are aware that the natives living in the interior of New Zealand were the last primitive culture to be discovered by "civilized" white men (sometime in the 1920's?). Yet from among those primitives were people who adapted quickly, and within a very few years became capitalists - among other things. There are white men who have never reached that level of success. So is the successful Abo, or the unsuccessful White somehow anomalous to their 'group'?

Intentionally dismissing the inherent capabilities of other people. 50 years ago, such things were been said about black men in the U.S.

 

[Zen Toombs]

What it means is that morality is always an afterthought and might as well be a moot point when you go about the destruction of life on a global scale. The only kind of morality in war is "Are we killing them in a way that's not slow and painful?" But the question of "Do we really need to kill anyone." Isn't even an issue, it never comes up, it never really needs to, because at that point, you're well beyond moral thinking.

I guess i'm saying that war is a brutal and ugly thing, applying special made up rules to it doesn't make it any prettier, so we might as well just drop the pretenses.

Applying rules to war may not make it prettier, but they do make it less ugly.[footnote]Not sure that made sense. Going with it![/footnote]

I am of the opinion that war should almost always be a defensive thing, and violence should be avoided as much as possible. As for when war has begun.... it gets a bit more complicated than just "are we killing them in a way that's not slow and painful", because there's "what about non-combatants?" and "what if 'non-combatants' are specifically working for the enemy (spying and such)?" and a number of other questions. As for the answers - in general, if the cause is truly just, do what is needed. However, if the option is presented between killing and not killing OR between killing painfully or killing quickly, choose the latter choice. It is better to reduce the suffering and death, if given the opportunity. To do otherwise is wrong.

I have actually agreed with everything you have said, I detest racism in any form. I was just curious if you would contradict yourself by answering my question with something like, "Yeah, Americans are stupid." Anyway, I glad to see that that's not the case. As for the Nazi's (which my original question had nothing to do with, sorry for the misunderstanding) my opinions similar, but far less tasteful or well written as I simply say, "fuck Nazis", and generally feel that no explanation is needed. Nevertheless, I won't demonize the Nazis as I don't think any people/person can be pure evil, but their ideology is reprehensible.

No worries, I misunderstood because I thought you were someone else. Sorry for that! Anyways, I can get behind is "Americans do stupid things", but only as a subset of "people do stupid things".


Captcha - politically correct
.....Captcha is becoming sentient.
I for one welcome our new Captcha'd Overlords.

 

[Natasha_LB]

There is negative discrimination, and there is positive discrimination. As a member of a highly discriminated against group myself, I have experienced both kinds. They both suck! They both remind me that people see me as different to themselves, any reminder that I am different is exactly what I wish to avoid.

That said, while negative discrimination still exists, at least we do very occasionally get the benefits of positive discrimination, it's still a little annoying, but you know what... after all the shit us minorities go through, sometimes we deserve something that's good for us. When privileged people complain about this, all I can here is "Oh no, a minority group is getting something that we're not, it's not fair! Waaa Waaa". Well you know what, this is how we are made to feel all the fucking time!! I'm actually glad to see privileged people on the reviving end of it sometimes.

Stop complaining, and check your privilege: Because while you may not realize it, simply by being alive, and being a member of a privileged group, you help to oppress people without even realizing it.

Be grateful for what you have, and if you see someone getting something that you'r not, just look at all the things that are better off for you!! In a world where all prejudice against minorities is gone, then you could be annoyed about something like this, but right now it's simply serving as a tool to try and level the scales. Get annoyed over prejudice against minorities first, then deal with prejudice that works in their favour. Because by trying to stop it before the balance is even, kinda makes you an oppressor, even though you don't realize it.

An apology to the Aboriginal people is in order here, and I hope that next time you see a minority group getting better treatment than you, you will think about all the instances in which you get better treatment than them. There really is no argument about this, and anyone who thinks there is, clearly needs to take a good hard look at their own privilege.

Seriously: If you're white, if you live in an MEDC, if you're male, if you're straight, if you don't have medical issues if you're cis, if you come from a good background, and so many more things that I can't be bothered to type right now: Then you have privilege: REALIZE IT