So MovieBob had some crap to say about that there Mass Effect 3 thingy...

[Darkcerb]

I think you're giving them far to much credit, when the industry treats us like walking wallets why should we treat them with any respect?

And a screen urging us to buy DLC right after that shit ending is exactly that.

To quote a great article on the ending of ME3:

"No one with any artistic integrity would have let that absolute debacle of an ending be released. No one. The ending was so inexcusable on so many levels, that I can?t help but laugh at people?s attempts to defend it by calling it art. As if Art were not subject to ridicule and criticism." - http://jmstevenson.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/all-that-matters-is-the-ending-part-2-mass-effect-3/

And we're consumers as well as fans, maybe some people need to be reminded that, we can demand whatever we want from the product. This isn't a bunch of people walking into a free museum and demanding actual art be changed, this is a bunch of consumers demanding a terrible ending to a game be changed.

 

[J.d. Scott]

I think you're giving them far to much credit, when the industry treats us like walking wallets why should we treat them with any respect?

And a screen urging us to buy DLC right after that shit ending is exactly that.

To quote a great article on the ending of ME3:

"No one with any artistic integrity would have let that absolute debacle of an ending be released. No one. The ending was so inexcusable on so many levels, that I can?t help but laugh at people?s attempts to defend it by calling it art. As if Art were not subject to ridicule and criticism." - http://jmstevenson.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/all-that-matters-is-the-ending-part-2-mass-effect-3/

And we're consumers as well as fans, maybe some people need to be reminded that, we can demand whatever we want from the product. This isn't a bunch of people walking into a free museum and demanding actual art be changed, this is a bunch of consumers demanding a terrible ending to a game be changed.

Please. What self-indulgence. "treats us like walking wallets". What industry in the history of anything has done more for it's consumers then gaming? Every industry trend, every game, every concept is built around end users. The content is interactive, companies acknowledge you, allows your input, builds forums for your feedback, builds social media to talk to you, acknowledges the gamng press so you can read interviews...

Especially Bioware. Shadow Broker? Built on fan suggestion. Increased Tali and Garrus - fan suggestion. I think their romance (if you don't romance either one) is a fan suggestion.

You want a new ending? SO WHAT? I do not. Is your complaint more valid then mine? I spent the same money you did - I even bought the collector's edition with the shiny case. I actually have an N7 mousepad (saw it on sale).

Why should they treat your concern with any respect? Because you're loud and obnoxious? Because you're a "paying customer"? They gave you a game, you gave them money. All things being equal, you've probably gotten more value out of that disc then you have out of a lot of similar gaming purchases. Either way, the transaction is complete.

And obviously, you want this new ending for free, even though they gave you the ending they wanted to. So you want them to bring back writers and animators, voice actors, mocap specialists and coders (since they'll need to code it three times) and spend thousands of dollars.

And they'll lose business doing it, because if they dramatically alter the ending to this game, it'll be my last Bioware product (Trust me, I already don't buy Capcom, Konami, and Bethesday products...) I'm sure I'm a minority, but they'll lose some.

All because you don't like something. Who's treating who with disrespect here?

 

[Darkcerb]

I think you're giving them far to much credit, when the industry treats us like walking wallets why should we treat them with any respect?

And a screen urging us to buy DLC right after that shit ending is exactly that.

To quote a great article on the ending of ME3:

"No one with any artistic integrity would have let that absolute debacle of an ending be released. No one. The ending was so inexcusable on so many levels, that I can?t help but laugh at people?s attempts to defend it by calling it art. As if Art were not subject to ridicule and criticism." - http://jmstevenson.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/all-that-matters-is-the-ending-part-2-mass-effect-3/

And we're consumers as well as fans, maybe some people need to be reminded that, we can demand whatever we want from the product. This isn't a bunch of people walking into a free museum and demanding actual art be changed, this is a bunch of consumers demanding a terrible ending to a game be changed.

Please. What self-indulgence. "treats us like walking wallets". What industry in the history of anything has done more for it's consumers then gaming? Every industry trend, every game, every concept is built around end users. The content is interactive, companies acknowledge you, allows your input, builds forums for your feedback, builds social media to talk to you, acknowledges the gamng press so you can read interviews...

Especially Bioware. Shadow Broker? Built on fan suggestion. Increased Tali and Garrus - fan suggestion. I think their romance (if you don't romance either one) is a fan suggestion.

You want a new ending? SO WHAT? I do not. Is your complaint more valid then mine? I spent the same money you did - I even bought the collector's edition with the shiny case. I actually have an N7 mousepad (saw it on sale).

Why should they treat your concern with any respect? Because you're loud and obnoxious? Because you're a "paying customer"? They gave you a game, you gave them money. All things being equal, you've probably gotten more value out of that disc then you have out of a lot of similar gaming purchases. Either way, the transaction is complete.

And obviously, you want this new ending for free, even though they gave you the ending they wanted to. So you want them to bring back writers and animators, voice actors, mocap specialists and coders (since they'll need to code it three times) and spend thousands of dollars.

And they'll lose business doing it, because if they dramatically alter the ending to this game, it'll be my last Bioware product (Trust me, I already don't buy Capcom, Konami, and Bethesday products...) I'm sure I'm a minority, but they'll lose some.

All because you don't like something. Who's treating who with disrespect here?

Our opinions are equal,as buyers I'm glad you understand common sense.

But you've missed my point and hit it at the same time, they don't deserve respect after the day 1 dlc incident let alone the pile of excrement that is the ending. And how many consumers want the ending changed vs those that are satisfied? oh yeah basic business 101.

Every industry is built around it's customers, again you've got the common sense down and yet you insist at the same time that we should take everything we buy and never demand changes we think would improve it, after listing the many ways the industry listens to us that makes no sense.

You're whole post seems to be taking one step forward then immediately denying you took that step, especially the first four paragraphs.

The industry doesn't need or notice your defense, and nothing ever improves without criticism. Maybe once you realize that you'll be able to clarify your opinion.

It's not on you or me^to change the ending, but every industry that wants to succeed appeals to the majority.

 

[shadowyoasis]

EDIT3: Bioware do owe the fans something. Their fans are their business. They have no fans = they sell no products. Bioware owe their livelihoods to fans, and the fans have been cheated out of a decent ending. Expect the next Bioware game to sell very poorly.

Wrong. The mainstream market probably accounts for a far larger percentage of sales than the hardcore gamers. Also, once you've purchased the game, they legally have no obligation to you. Of any kind. Posts like this are why people are complaining about "gamer entitlement".

Everytime I hear these words my headaches. Seriously, once I purchase a product the company has no legal obligation to me? Really?

So if you bought a car, fresh off the lot. Then in the middle of the night it randomly blew up. You'd be screwed because the carmaker and the lot you bought it off had no legal obligation to you after you took it off the lot.

Really?

Because you know thats the exact same logic your using.

To the rest of the topic as a whole.

As far as changing the ending to a game, its been done before at least twice. So its not really setting a precedence on that part.

However, like I said in another post I don't believe we should've gone through so much effort as to push a different ending as much as we should've held mass protests, pushed sales away from the game, boycotted all their products, and run massive slander campaigns against the company as a whole. To stop it they would've eventually had to fix the end or dissolve the company. Either way the message would've gotten across.

Also games are art, the people pushing this haven't been the gamers but the designers and developers. Those who say it isn't lack fundamental knowledge of what actually goes into making a game.

As far as a medium, theres more than a few games that have scared people half to death or made them literally cry in sadness.

 

[Slayer_2]

Everytime I hear these words my headaches. Seriously, once I purchase a product the company has no legal obligation to me? Really?

So if you bought a car, fresh off the lot. Then in the middle of the night it randomly blew up. You'd be screwed because the carmaker and the lot you bought it off had no legal obligation to you after you took it off the lot.

Really?

Because you know thats the exact same logic your using.

WARNING: WALL OF TEXT INCOMING.

Bad analogy is bad. First off, a car wouldn't blow up, unless you used some kind of explosive, or it was involved in a very unlucky crash, was poorly designed, and the fuel tank somehow ruptured. I've never heard of a car blowing up for no reason.

Assuming it DID somehow happen, or something less extreme happened (like the transmission or engine failed), it'd likely be covered under the MANUFACTURER'S WARRANTY. This is a special warranty that the car ships with, and a LEGAL OBLIGATION for the manufacturer to cover all repair costs. It usually consists of 2 years of total coverage for any defects, then another 2 years of drive-train coverage. There are extended warranties and such, too, which you PAY EXTRA FOR. If your car craps out after the warranty expires, or you buy an older car without a warranty and something goes wrong, you're screwed.

However, if you don't like the stock rims or want to install some engine mods, you can't send the goddamn bill to the manufacturer, then ***** when they decline to pay it. That is a much more apt analogy for this situation.

Since it's unlikely that your game is going to have transmission problems, you do NOT get a manufacturer warranty with it. Even if your game won't start and crashes on startup, it's unlikely you'll receive any compensation, and even a return is unlikely, since the issue is likely at your end, and your PC doesn't support the game for whatever reason. That is an actual critical failure, yet still you are not likely to receive any help with it. You not liking the ending does not IN ANY WAY oblige the developer to do anything about it. Even if millions of people don't like it, they still aren't obliged to do anything, although they may eventually cave (although I hope not).

TL;DR: Your analogy is crap.

 

[shadowyoasis]

Spoiler

WARNING: WALL OF TEXT INCOMING.

Bad analogy is bad. First off, a car wouldn't blow up, unless you used some kind of explosive, or it was involved in a very unlucky crash, was poorly designed, and the fuel tank somehow ruptured. I've never heard of a car blowing up for no reason.

Assuming it DID somehow happen, or something less extreme happened (like the transmission or engine failed), it'd likely be covered under the MANUFACTURER'S WARRANTY. This is a special warranty that the car ships with, and a LEGAL OBLIGATION for the manufacturer to cover all repair costs. It usually consists of 2 years of total coverage for any defects, then another 2 years of drive-train coverage. There are extended warranties and such, too, which you PAY EXTRA FOR. If your car craps out after the warranty expires, or you buy an older car without a warranty and something goes wrong, you're screwed.

However, if you don't like the stock rims or want to install some engine mods, you can't send the goddamn bill to the manufacturer, then ***** when they decline to pay it. That is a much more apt analogy for this situation.

Since it's unlikely that your game is going to have transmission problems, you do NOT get a manufacturer warranty with it. Even if your game won't start and crashes on startup, it's unlikely you'll receive any compensation, and even a return is unlikely, since the issue is likely at your end, and your PC doesn't support the game for whatever reason. That is an actual critical failure, yet still you are not likely to receive any help with it. You not liking the ending does not IN ANY WAY oblige the developer to do anything about it. Even if millions of people don't like it, they still aren't obliged to do anything, although they may eventually cave (although I hope not).

TL;DR: Your analogy is crap.

Fine a better analogy, you goto a restaurant you don't like the food.

What do you do? Thats right you take it back and they'll get you something else or remake it if its not cooked the way you want it.

If you own a restaurant that lets say sells sandwiches and 80% of the customers come back and complain.

Are you under any obligation to change it? No legally you don't, but you'll completely lose all the business you have so you better damn well change it.

At this point your really just pulling straws, Bioware has an obligation to satisfy their customers or risk losing business and profits. Is it a legal binding contract obligation, no. Is it still an obligation? Yes.

 

[Slayer_2]

Fine a better analogy, you goto a restaurant you don't like the food.

What do you do? Thats right you take it back and they'll get you something else or remake it if its not cooked the way you want it.

If you own a restaurant that lets say sells sandwiches and 80% of the customers come back and complain.

Are you under any obligation to change it? No legally you don't, but you'll completely lose all the business you have so you better damn well change it.

At this point your really just pulling straws, Bioware has an obligation to satisfy their customers or risk losing business and profits. Is it a legal binding contract obligation, no. Is it still an obligation? Yes.

You said

Seriously, once I purchase a product the company has no legal obligation to me? Really?

Seriously, no they do not. That was all I was saying. I never said that they should not try to please their customers, although, to be honest, I really do hope they don't change the ending. However, that was NOT stated in my original post. I was just calling BS on they guy that said they have a legal obligation to please their fans. Which is horseshit. And I'm the one pulling straws? Cute.

 

[J.d. Scott]

I think you're giving them far to much credit, when the industry treats us like walking wallets why should we treat them with any respect?

And a screen urging us to buy DLC right after that shit ending is exactly that.

To quote a great article on the ending of ME3:

"No one with any artistic integrity would have let that absolute debacle of an ending be released. No one. The ending was so inexcusable on so many levels, that I can?t help but laugh at people?s attempts to defend it by calling it art. As if Art were not subject to ridicule and criticism." - http://jmstevenson.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/all-that-matters-is-the-ending-part-2-mass-effect-3/

And we're consumers as well as fans, maybe some people need to be reminded that, we can demand whatever we want from the product. This isn't a bunch of people walking into a free museum and demanding actual art be changed, this is a bunch of consumers demanding a terrible ending to a game be changed.

Please. What self-indulgence. "treats us like walking wallets". What industry in the history of anything has done more for it's consumers then gaming? Every industry trend, every game, every concept is built around end users. The content is interactive, companies acknowledge you, allows your input, builds forums for your feedback, builds social media to talk to you, acknowledges the gamng press so you can read interviews...

Especially Bioware. Shadow Broker? Built on fan suggestion. Increased Tali and Garrus - fan suggestion. I think their romance (if you don't romance either one) is a fan suggestion.

You want a new ending? SO WHAT? I do not. Is your complaint more valid then mine? I spent the same money you did - I even bought the collector's edition with the shiny case. I actually have an N7 mousepad (saw it on sale).

Why should they treat your concern with any respect? Because you're loud and obnoxious? Because you're a "paying customer"? They gave you a game, you gave them money. All things being equal, you've probably gotten more value out of that disc then you have out of a lot of similar gaming purchases. Either way, the transaction is complete.

And obviously, you want this new ending for free, even though they gave you the ending they wanted to. So you want them to bring back writers and animators, voice actors, mocap specialists and coders (since they'll need to code it three times) and spend thousands of dollars.

And they'll lose business doing it, because if they dramatically alter the ending to this game, it'll be my last Bioware product (Trust me, I already don't buy Capcom, Konami, and Bethesday products...) I'm sure I'm a minority, but they'll lose some.

All because you don't like something. Who's treating who with disrespect here?

Our opinions are equal,as buyers I'm glad you understand common sense.

But you've missed my point and hit it at the same time, they don't deserve respect after the day 1 dlc incident let alone the pile of excrement that is the ending. And how many consumers want the ending changed vs those that are satisfied? oh yeah basic business 101.

Every industry is built around it's customers, again you've got the common sense down and yet you insist at the same time that we should take everything we buy and never demand changes we think would improve it, after listing the many ways the industry listens to us that makes no sense.

You're whole post seems to be taking one step forward then immediately denying you took that step, especially the first four paragraphs.

The industry doesn't need or notice your defense, and nothing ever improves without criticism. Maybe once you realize that you'll be able to clarify your opinion.

It's not on you or me^to change the ending, but every industry that wants to succeed appeals to the majority.

The "Day 1 DLC incident"? Are you kidding me? The Day 1 DLC was a bunch of rifles that were generally unnecessary (I used the Paladin, the Widow, the lightest SMG and the particle beam - none of which were in the DLC) and a maybe one hour expansion that provided prequel information (You certainly didn't need to know a little bit of background information about the Protheans...) and a character who was rather overpowered, to the point where I took him in a few missions to kick the tires and then benched him permanently.

It's so nothing, I can't even imagine this. Yeah, there's a possibility in the future that Day 1 DLC could get ugly, but a few things - as games get more and more expensive to make, developers have to figure out ways to make money. They're trying everything to profit-ize used games sales. Things like Day 1 DLC are an idea. Also, since the DLC purchase curve hits absolutely bottom after about 100 days, the earlier they offer it, the more it's purchased. You're looking for reasons to pick on EA/Bioware. This isn't it.

The "House of Valor DLC" for Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning was an issue for approximately five seconds, until people realized that chopping two non-plot hours out of a 100 hour game is still good value. Even on it's worst day, ME3 is still as long as Eternal Sonata (30 hours if you rush), and I enjoyed both games and don't regret a dime of it. ME3 has multiplayer and replay value, and ES has neither, honestly.

And see, where we differ...I don't mind your complaints. I think they're valid. I see parts where the ending could be improved. However the issue is asking versus demanding. I don't see where Bioware owes you anything, or they screwed up. The ending isn't fantastic, but it's does end, and that's really all they owe you. The RME community gave up on normal positive dialogue a while ago. These attempts to force Bioware to give you a new ending, while you may view them as justified - I view them as entitled. I think you received something and you want something else for free even though Bioware doesn't owe you anything. Now they may want to do it because there's a lot of unhappy customers, but that's their choice to make, not your choice to attempt to dictate to them through PR and publicity stunts and general mob mentality.

I think that's the big difference. If they had come back on their own in a month after some forum chatter and said..."we're going to do an addon that adds to the endings, includes a little thing where the crew rescues the injured Shepard and then works on rebuilding the Mass Relays as a DLC", that's fine. They have that choice. For Bioware to basically admit they caved to fan pressure, that's horrific on both sides. It's a pyrrhic victory at best.

 

[J.d. Scott]

Spoiler

WARNING: WALL OF TEXT INCOMING.

Bad analogy is bad. First off, a car wouldn't blow up, unless you used some kind of explosive, or it was involved in a very unlucky crash, was poorly designed, and the fuel tank somehow ruptured. I've never heard of a car blowing up for no reason.

Assuming it DID somehow happen, or something less extreme happened (like the transmission or engine failed), it'd likely be covered under the MANUFACTURER'S WARRANTY. This is a special warranty that the car ships with, and a LEGAL OBLIGATION for the manufacturer to cover all repair costs. It usually consists of 2 years of total coverage for any defects, then another 2 years of drive-train coverage. There are extended warranties and such, too, which you PAY EXTRA FOR. If your car craps out after the warranty expires, or you buy an older car without a warranty and something goes wrong, you're screwed.

However, if you don't like the stock rims or want to install some engine mods, you can't send the goddamn bill to the manufacturer, then ***** when they decline to pay it. That is a much more apt analogy for this situation.

Since it's unlikely that your game is going to have transmission problems, you do NOT get a manufacturer warranty with it. Even if your game won't start and crashes on startup, it's unlikely you'll receive any compensation, and even a return is unlikely, since the issue is likely at your end, and your PC doesn't support the game for whatever reason. That is an actual critical failure, yet still you are not likely to receive any help with it. You not liking the ending does not IN ANY WAY oblige the developer to do anything about it. Even if millions of people don't like it, they still aren't obliged to do anything, although they may eventually cave (although I hope not).

TL;DR: Your analogy is crap.

Fine a better analogy, you goto a restaurant you don't like the food.

What do you do? Thats right you take it back and they'll get you something else or remake it if its not cooked the way you want it.

If you own a restaurant that lets say sells sandwiches and 80% of the customers come back and complain.

Are you under any obligation to change it? No legally you don't, but you'll completely lose all the business you have so you better damn well change it.

At this point your really just pulling straws, Bioware has an obligation to satisfy their customers or risk losing business and profits. Is it a legal binding contract obligation, no. Is it still an obligation? Yes.

This analogy's just as bad as the car one.

This isn't a case where you didn't like the food because the food is wrong - this is a case where you didn't like the food because you didn't like the food.

Now, they can choose to give you different food, because they want to retain you as a customer, but they're under no obligation to do so, legally or otherwise. In fact, since you've gone from a customer politely saying you don't like the food, to a customer loudly yelling you don't like the food, to a customer insulting waiters and kitchen staff and going from table to table telling people the food sucks and trying to shade their experience, they should probably throw you out on your butt. (BTW, since apparently nobody seems to get this - I'm extending your metaphor, and "you" means the whole side of your community, not you individually.)

It's like you tell a three year old - if you ask for something, you might get it or you might not. You demand something, you definitely won't get it. You throw a tantrum, not only will you not get it, but all you're going to get is a sore behind when we get home.

It's about time a large group of entitled gamers got a well-deserved spanking.

 

[Darkcerb]

I think you're giving them far to much credit, when the industry treats us like walking wallets why should we treat them with any respect?

And a screen urging us to buy DLC right after that shit ending is exactly that.

To quote a great article on the ending of ME3:

"No one with any artistic integrity would have let that absolute debacle of an ending be released. No one. The ending was so inexcusable on so many levels, that I can?t help but laugh at people?s attempts to defend it by calling it art. As if Art were not subject to ridicule and criticism." - http://jmstevenson.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/all-that-matters-is-the-ending-part-2-mass-effect-3/

And we're consumers as well as fans, maybe some people need to be reminded that, we can demand whatever we want from the product. This isn't a bunch of people walking into a free museum and demanding actual art be changed, this is a bunch of consumers demanding a terrible ending to a game be changed.

Please. What self-indulgence. "treats us like walking wallets". What industry in the history of anything has done more for it's consumers then gaming? Every industry trend, every game, every concept is built around end users. The content is interactive, companies acknowledge you, allows your input, builds forums for your feedback, builds social media to talk to you, acknowledges the gamng press so you can read interviews...

Especially Bioware. Shadow Broker? Built on fan suggestion. Increased Tali and Garrus - fan suggestion. I think their romance (if you don't romance either one) is a fan suggestion.

You want a new ending? SO WHAT? I do not. Is your complaint more valid then mine? I spent the same money you did - I even bought the collector's edition with the shiny case. I actually have an N7 mousepad (saw it on sale).

Why should they treat your concern with any respect? Because you're loud and obnoxious? Because you're a "paying customer"? They gave you a game, you gave them money. All things being equal, you've probably gotten more value out of that disc then you have out of a lot of similar gaming purchases. Either way, the transaction is complete.

And obviously, you want this new ending for free, even though they gave you the ending they wanted to. So you want them to bring back writers and animators, voice actors, mocap specialists and coders (since they'll need to code it three times) and spend thousands of dollars.

And they'll lose business doing it, because if they dramatically alter the ending to this game, it'll be my last Bioware product (Trust me, I already don't buy Capcom, Konami, and Bethesday products...) I'm sure I'm a minority, but they'll lose some.

All because you don't like something. Who's treating who with disrespect here?

Our opinions are equal,as buyers I'm glad you understand common sense.

But you've missed my point and hit it at the same time, they don't deserve respect after the day 1 dlc incident let alone the pile of excrement that is the ending. And how many consumers want the ending changed vs those that are satisfied? oh yeah basic business 101.

Every industry is built around it's customers, again you've got the common sense down and yet you insist at the same time that we should take everything we buy and never demand changes we think would improve it, after listing the many ways the industry listens to us that makes no sense.

You're whole post seems to be taking one step forward then immediately denying you took that step, especially the first four paragraphs.

The industry doesn't need or notice your defense, and nothing ever improves without criticism. Maybe once you realize that you'll be able to clarify your opinion.

It's not on you or me^to change the ending, but every industry that wants to succeed appeals to the majority.

The "Day 1 DLC incident"? Are you kidding me? The Day 1 DLC was a bunch of rifles that were generally unnecessary (I used the Paladin, the Widow, the lightest SMG and the particle beam - none of which were in the DLC) and a maybe one hour expansion that provided prequel information (You certainly didn't need to know a little bit of background information about the Protheans...) and a character who was rather overpowered, to the point where I took him in a few missions to kick the tires and then benched him permanently.

It's so nothing, I can't even imagine this. Yeah, there's a possibility in the future that Day 1 DLC could get ugly, but a few things - as games get more and more expensive to make, developers have to figure out ways to make money. They're trying everything to profit-ize used games sales. Things like Day 1 DLC are an idea. Also, since the DLC purchase curve hits absolutely bottom after about 100 days, the earlier they offer it, the more it's purchased. You're looking for reasons to pick on EA/Bioware. This isn't it.

The "House of Valor DLC" for Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning was an issue for approximately five seconds, until people realized that chopping two non-plot hours out of a 100 hour game is still good value. Even on it's worst day, ME3 is still as long as Eternal Sonata (30 hours if you rush), and I enjoyed both games and don't regret a dime of it. ME3 has multiplayer and replay value, and ES has neither, honestly.

And see, where we differ...I don't mind your complaints. I think they're valid. I see parts where the ending could be improved. However the issue is asking versus demanding. I don't see where Bioware owes you anything, or they screwed up. The ending isn't fantastic, but it's does end, and that's really all they owe you. The RME community gave up on normal positive dialogue a while ago. These attempts to force Bioware to give you a new ending, while you may view them as justified - I view them as entitled. I think you received something and you want something else for free even though Bioware doesn't owe you anything. Now they may want to do it because there's a lot of unhappy customers, but that's their choice to make, not your choice to attempt to dictate to them through PR and publicity stunts and general mob mentality.

I think that's the big difference. If they had come back on their own in a month after some forum chatter and said..."we're going to do an addon that adds to the endings, includes a little thing where the crew rescues the injured Shepard and then works on rebuilding the Mass Relays as a DLC", that's fine. They have that choice. For Bioware to basically admit they caved to fan pressure, that's horrific on both sides. It's a pyrrhic victory at best.

And I think any industry becoming more answerable to it's consumers is a good thing, by that token once again I think we're well within our rights to demand a better ending in the same way that we'd be within our rights to complain if at a restaurant we had an amazing meal that at the end of which the chef came out and farted in our face.

This worship the games industry seems to get from some baffles me completely, they aren't your friends they are company's and like any company are at the mercy of there consumers.

 

[Darkcerb]

Spoiler

WARNING: WALL OF TEXT INCOMING.

Bad analogy is bad. First off, a car wouldn't blow up, unless you used some kind of explosive, or it was involved in a very unlucky crash, was poorly designed, and the fuel tank somehow ruptured. I've never heard of a car blowing up for no reason.

Assuming it DID somehow happen, or something less extreme happened (like the transmission or engine failed), it'd likely be covered under the MANUFACTURER'S WARRANTY. This is a special warranty that the car ships with, and a LEGAL OBLIGATION for the manufacturer to cover all repair costs. It usually consists of 2 years of total coverage for any defects, then another 2 years of drive-train coverage. There are extended warranties and such, too, which you PAY EXTRA FOR. If your car craps out after the warranty expires, or you buy an older car without a warranty and something goes wrong, you're screwed.

However, if you don't like the stock rims or want to install some engine mods, you can't send the goddamn bill to the manufacturer, then ***** when they decline to pay it. That is a much more apt analogy for this situation.

Since it's unlikely that your game is going to have transmission problems, you do NOT get a manufacturer warranty with it. Even if your game won't start and crashes on startup, it's unlikely you'll receive any compensation, and even a return is unlikely, since the issue is likely at your end, and your PC doesn't support the game for whatever reason. That is an actual critical failure, yet still you are not likely to receive any help with it. You not liking the ending does not IN ANY WAY oblige the developer to do anything about it. Even if millions of people don't like it, they still aren't obliged to do anything, although they may eventually cave (although I hope not).

TL;DR: Your analogy is crap.

Fine a better analogy, you goto a restaurant you don't like the food.

What do you do? Thats right you take it back and they'll get you something else or remake it if its not cooked the way you want it.

If you own a restaurant that lets say sells sandwiches and 80% of the customers come back and complain.

Are you under any obligation to change it? No legally you don't, but you'll completely lose all the business you have so you better damn well change it.

At this point your really just pulling straws, Bioware has an obligation to satisfy their customers or risk losing business and profits. Is it a legal binding contract obligation, no. Is it still an obligation? Yes.

This analogy's just as bad as the car one.

This isn't a case where you didn't like the food because the food is wrong - this is a case where you didn't like the food because you didn't like the food.

Now, they can choose to give you different food, because they want to retain you as a customer, but they're under no obligation to do so, legally or otherwise. In fact, since you've gone from a customer politely saying you don't like the food, to a customer loudly yelling you don't like the food, to a customer insulting waiters and kitchen staff and going from table to table telling people the food sucks and trying to shade their experience, they should probably throw you out on your butt. (BTW, since apparently nobody seems to get this - I'm extending your metaphor, and "you" means the whole side of your community, not you individually.)

It's like you tell a three year old - if you ask for something, you might get it or you might not. You demand something, you definitely won't get it. You throw a tantrum, not only will you not get it, but all you're going to get is a sore behind when we get home.

It's about time a large group of entitled gamers got a well-deserved spanking.

Since you're so keen on lumping everyone together and then exaggerating the point perhaps we should start doing the same?

I'm tired of the industry sympathizers who would take it firmly in the rear and ask for more instead of complain that they're getting shafted, you've proved you're one with your cheerful dismissal of the day one dlc, the war on used games and piracy hurts only one group the loyal customers.

I'm not sure where you're getting this insulted staff business from and I suspect this is where you're whole point stems from. Kindly point me to all this rabble rousing is, and even if you can I'll point you to two more reasonable well thought out break downs on the ending.

 

[J.d. Scott]

I think you're giving them far to much credit, when the industry treats us like walking wallets why should we treat them with any respect?

And a screen urging us to buy DLC right after that shit ending is exactly that.

To quote a great article on the ending of ME3:

"No one with any artistic integrity would have let that absolute debacle of an ending be released. No one. The ending was so inexcusable on so many levels, that I can?t help but laugh at people?s attempts to defend it by calling it art. As if Art were not subject to ridicule and criticism." - http://jmstevenson.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/all-that-matters-is-the-ending-part-2-mass-effect-3/

And we're consumers as well as fans, maybe some people need to be reminded that, we can demand whatever we want from the product. This isn't a bunch of people walking into a free museum and demanding actual art be changed, this is a bunch of consumers demanding a terrible ending to a game be changed.

Please. What self-indulgence. "treats us like walking wallets". What industry in the history of anything has done more for it's consumers then gaming? Every industry trend, every game, every concept is built around end users. The content is interactive, companies acknowledge you, allows your input, builds forums for your feedback, builds social media to talk to you, acknowledges the gamng press so you can read interviews...

Especially Bioware. Shadow Broker? Built on fan suggestion. Increased Tali and Garrus - fan suggestion. I think their romance (if you don't romance either one) is a fan suggestion.

You want a new ending? SO WHAT? I do not. Is your complaint more valid then mine? I spent the same money you did - I even bought the collector's edition with the shiny case. I actually have an N7 mousepad (saw it on sale).

Why should they treat your concern with any respect? Because you're loud and obnoxious? Because you're a "paying customer"? They gave you a game, you gave them money. All things being equal, you've probably gotten more value out of that disc then you have out of a lot of similar gaming purchases. Either way, the transaction is complete.

And obviously, you want this new ending for free, even though they gave you the ending they wanted to. So you want them to bring back writers and animators, voice actors, mocap specialists and coders (since they'll need to code it three times) and spend thousands of dollars.

And they'll lose business doing it, because if they dramatically alter the ending to this game, it'll be my last Bioware product (Trust me, I already don't buy Capcom, Konami, and Bethesday products...) I'm sure I'm a minority, but they'll lose some.

All because you don't like something. Who's treating who with disrespect here?

Our opinions are equal,as buyers I'm glad you understand common sense.

But you've missed my point and hit it at the same time, they don't deserve respect after the day 1 dlc incident let alone the pile of excrement that is the ending. And how many consumers want the ending changed vs those that are satisfied? oh yeah basic business 101.

Every industry is built around it's customers, again you've got the common sense down and yet you insist at the same time that we should take everything we buy and never demand changes we think would improve it, after listing the many ways the industry listens to us that makes no sense.

You're whole post seems to be taking one step forward then immediately denying you took that step, especially the first four paragraphs.

The industry doesn't need or notice your defense, and nothing ever improves without criticism. Maybe once you realize that you'll be able to clarify your opinion.

It's not on you or me^to change the ending, but every industry that wants to succeed appeals to the majority.

The "Day 1 DLC incident"? Are you kidding me? The Day 1 DLC was a bunch of rifles that were generally unnecessary (I used the Paladin, the Widow, the lightest SMG and the particle beam - none of which were in the DLC) and a maybe one hour expansion that provided prequel information (You certainly didn't need to know a little bit of background information about the Protheans...) and a character who was rather overpowered, to the point where I took him in a few missions to kick the tires and then benched him permanently.

It's so nothing, I can't even imagine this. Yeah, there's a possibility in the future that Day 1 DLC could get ugly, but a few things - as games get more and more expensive to make, developers have to figure out ways to make money. They're trying everything to profit-ize used games sales. Things like Day 1 DLC are an idea. Also, since the DLC purchase curve hits absolutely bottom after about 100 days, the earlier they offer it, the more it's purchased. You're looking for reasons to pick on EA/Bioware. This isn't it.

The "House of Valor DLC" for Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning was an issue for approximately five seconds, until people realized that chopping two non-plot hours out of a 100 hour game is still good value. Even on it's worst day, ME3 is still as long as Eternal Sonata (30 hours if you rush), and I enjoyed both games and don't regret a dime of it. ME3 has multiplayer and replay value, and ES has neither, honestly.

And see, where we differ...I don't mind your complaints. I think they're valid. I see parts where the ending could be improved. However the issue is asking versus demanding. I don't see where Bioware owes you anything, or they screwed up. The ending isn't fantastic, but it's does end, and that's really all they owe you. The RME community gave up on normal positive dialogue a while ago. These attempts to force Bioware to give you a new ending, while you may view them as justified - I view them as entitled. I think you received something and you want something else for free even though Bioware doesn't owe you anything. Now they may want to do it because there's a lot of unhappy customers, but that's their choice to make, not your choice to attempt to dictate to them through PR and publicity stunts and general mob mentality.

I think that's the big difference. If they had come back on their own in a month after some forum chatter and said..."we're going to do an addon that adds to the endings, includes a little thing where the crew rescues the injured Shepard and then works on rebuilding the Mass Relays as a DLC", that's fine. They have that choice. For Bioware to basically admit they caved to fan pressure, that's horrific on both sides. It's a pyrrhic victory at best.

And I think any industry becoming more answerable to it's consumers is a good thing, by that token once again I think we're well within our rights to demand a better ending in the same way that we'd be within our rights to complain if at a restaurant we had an amazing meal that at the end of which the chef came out and farted in our face.

This worship the games industry seems to get from some baffles me completely, they aren't your friends they are company's and like any company are at the mercy of there consumers.

No, you don't get it. You're well within your rights, because legally you can do whatever you want, but you're not right. This isn't correct, and it isn't a good thing.

The reason being is that a game represents the creative force of a design team. They didn't ask you for help. They make something, and you choose whether or not you want to buy it. If you buy it and enjoy it great. If you don't, you're welcome to try and return it, but in this case, it would be hard to justify because the game isn't terrible (in fact the game is rather good), but the ending is terrible.

It's not correct to try and enforce your personal standards on what the story should be on the people that created the story. Mostly because it's their story and they should be able to tell it whatever way they want. This isn't a case of accountability - the game isn't defective. You just didn't like a small part.

More importantly, as much as we talk about moral event horizons with Day 1 DLC, this is just as bad. Allowing an angry mob to dictate what a company should and shouldn't do is lunacy. More importantly, this is potentially millions of dollars that Bioware is going to have to eat to bring back developers, writers, artists, voice actors - and the entitled masses aren't going to accept paying for it. What's next? Should WOW gamers make Blizzard redo Dragon Soul because it's boring? Would a group of crazed modern warfare gamers be allowed to coerce Thatgamecompany into inserting guns and terrorists into Journey?

This is an incredibly dangerous precedent for author choice and storytelling. Companies are going to be afraid to give you complex narratives, because if the masses are too f**king stupid to understand them, they'll just demand something else. Triple A titles are going to tread on dangerous water, because if you think the ME3 ending is bad, it's nothing compared to the stupidity of some other games. Ever finished AC:Brotherhood? Or Deus Ex:Human Revolution? Both of those are TERRIBLE.

This isn't a measure of worship - this is an artist, who would rather not make art then let an angry mob dictate to me how I create it suggesting to you that this is a terrible idea. Trust me, if I worked for Bioware, I'd be job hunting before I considered a wholesale change to the ending. I guarantee, you start this crap, you're going to lose people in this industry who make things that you like, because they wouldn't put up with this.

Ever read "The Fountainhead", where Howard Roark blew up the building because they changed the building without his permission? It's like that to me. If it's like that to me, it'll be like that to other artists. Maybe not all of them, but some - and these will be things that you will miss. The high concept games like Mass Effect are going to get fewer and farther between because for the publisher/developer, there will be liability. It's much easier to give you no story then run the risk of having to spend money to fix one.

If Bioware changes the ending, you may think you win, but everyone loses.

 

[J.d. Scott]

Spoiler

WARNING: WALL OF TEXT INCOMING.

Bad analogy is bad. First off, a car wouldn't blow up, unless you used some kind of explosive, or it was involved in a very unlucky crash, was poorly designed, and the fuel tank somehow ruptured. I've never heard of a car blowing up for no reason.

Assuming it DID somehow happen, or something less extreme happened (like the transmission or engine failed), it'd likely be covered under the MANUFACTURER'S WARRANTY. This is a special warranty that the car ships with, and a LEGAL OBLIGATION for the manufacturer to cover all repair costs. It usually consists of 2 years of total coverage for any defects, then another 2 years of drive-train coverage. There are extended warranties and such, too, which you PAY EXTRA FOR. If your car craps out after the warranty expires, or you buy an older car without a warranty and something goes wrong, you're screwed.

However, if you don't like the stock rims or want to install some engine mods, you can't send the goddamn bill to the manufacturer, then ***** when they decline to pay it. That is a much more apt analogy for this situation.

Since it's unlikely that your game is going to have transmission problems, you do NOT get a manufacturer warranty with it. Even if your game won't start and crashes on startup, it's unlikely you'll receive any compensation, and even a return is unlikely, since the issue is likely at your end, and your PC doesn't support the game for whatever reason. That is an actual critical failure, yet still you are not likely to receive any help with it. You not liking the ending does not IN ANY WAY oblige the developer to do anything about it. Even if millions of people don't like it, they still aren't obliged to do anything, although they may eventually cave (although I hope not).

TL;DR: Your analogy is crap.

Fine a better analogy, you goto a restaurant you don't like the food.

What do you do? Thats right you take it back and they'll get you something else or remake it if its not cooked the way you want it.

If you own a restaurant that lets say sells sandwiches and 80% of the customers come back and complain.

Are you under any obligation to change it? No legally you don't, but you'll completely lose all the business you have so you better damn well change it.

At this point your really just pulling straws, Bioware has an obligation to satisfy their customers or risk losing business and profits. Is it a legal binding contract obligation, no. Is it still an obligation? Yes.

This analogy's just as bad as the car one.

This isn't a case where you didn't like the food because the food is wrong - this is a case where you didn't like the food because you didn't like the food.

Now, they can choose to give you different food, because they want to retain you as a customer, but they're under no obligation to do so, legally or otherwise. In fact, since you've gone from a customer politely saying you don't like the food, to a customer loudly yelling you don't like the food, to a customer insulting waiters and kitchen staff and going from table to table telling people the food sucks and trying to shade their experience, they should probably throw you out on your butt. (BTW, since apparently nobody seems to get this - I'm extending your metaphor, and "you" means the whole side of your community, not you individually.)

It's like you tell a three year old - if you ask for something, you might get it or you might not. You demand something, you definitely won't get it. You throw a tantrum, not only will you not get it, but all you're going to get is a sore behind when we get home.

It's about time a large group of entitled gamers got a well-deserved spanking.

Since you're so keen on lumping everyone together and then exaggerating the point perhaps we should start doing the same?

I'm tired of the industry sympathizers who would take it firmly in the rear and ask for more instead of complain that they're getting shafted, you've proved you're one with your cheerful dismissal of the day one dlc, the war on used games and piracy hurts only one group the loyal customers.

I'm not sure where you're getting this insulted staff business from and I suspect this is where you're whole point stems from. Kindly point me to all this rabble rousing is, and even if you can I'll point you to two more reasonable well thought out break downs on the ending.

Take it in the a**? Are you daft? Just think about it this way. Your average movie - 90 minutes. Mass Effect - somewhere between 30 and 100 hours, depending on how hard you ran side missions. Even at 30 hours, which is a guaranteed bad ending, you're talking over 19 full length theatrical movies to get the same level of entertainment.

At 7 dollars a ticket (and that's cheap), you're talking $133 dollars, $63 more then you paid for the special edition to get the same entertainment. Add in DLC, multiplayer, and you're getting hundreds and hundreds of dollars in value per game.

They aren't shafting you, you idiot. Your just so entitled, you don't really get it. Here's the thing - imagine they didn't release it day one. Imagine they released it next Tuesday, same thing - free for collectors, $10 for everyone else. Would you have any right to complain?

DLC doesn't sell after about 60 days. At all. Past a month, it's low. Bethesda learned this the hard way. The best DLCs for Fallout 3 were the last two, and they couldn't sell them to save their lives. (Didn't help that I was ticked at them for rewriting their bad ending just to sell that DLC.)

Go watch the Extra Credits about this. Maybe the pretty cartoons will help.

The used games thing makes sense in a way. There needs to be a middle ground so users get equity for their purchases and developers can make residuals on their games like they should. The Microsoft 720/PS4, if they try to ban used games will get exactly what they deserve. Gamers will turn on them. The console makers aren't doing the right thing, but buying used does kind of suck.

Why should game companies support piracy? If you steal my stuff, I should be able to cut off your arm, like in the fake arabia they make up in movies.

You seem to think that anyone who supports game companies making money for producing high quality product or not supporting a legion of entitled whiny gamers is some mindless corporate syncophant. That isn't true.

I don't think every member of the retake community have done horrible stuff, but the community should really be responsible and make sure to disassociate with and condemn the actions of the ones who are doing inappropriate responses.

 

[Darkcerb]

I think you're giving them far to much credit, when the industry treats us like walking wallets why should we treat them with any respect?

And a screen urging us to buy DLC right after that shit ending is exactly that.

To quote a great article on the ending of ME3:

"No one with any artistic integrity would have let that absolute debacle of an ending be released. No one. The ending was so inexcusable on so many levels, that I can?t help but laugh at people?s attempts to defend it by calling it art. As if Art were not subject to ridicule and criticism." - http://jmstevenson.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/all-that-matters-is-the-ending-part-2-mass-effect-3/

And we're consumers as well as fans, maybe some people need to be reminded that, we can demand whatever we want from the product. This isn't a bunch of people walking into a free museum and demanding actual art be changed, this is a bunch of consumers demanding a terrible ending to a game be changed.

Please. What self-indulgence. "treats us like walking wallets". What industry in the history of anything has done more for it's consumers then gaming? Every industry trend, every game, every concept is built around end users. The content is interactive, companies acknowledge you, allows your input, builds forums for your feedback, builds social media to talk to you, acknowledges the gamng press so you can read interviews...

Especially Bioware. Shadow Broker? Built on fan suggestion. Increased Tali and Garrus - fan suggestion. I think their romance (if you don't romance either one) is a fan suggestion.

You want a new ending? SO WHAT? I do not. Is your complaint more valid then mine? I spent the same money you did - I even bought the collector's edition with the shiny case. I actually have an N7 mousepad (saw it on sale).

Why should they treat your concern with any respect? Because you're loud and obnoxious? Because you're a "paying customer"? They gave you a game, you gave them money. All things being equal, you've probably gotten more value out of that disc then you have out of a lot of similar gaming purchases. Either way, the transaction is complete.

And obviously, you want this new ending for free, even though they gave you the ending they wanted to. So you want them to bring back writers and animators, voice actors, mocap specialists and coders (since they'll need to code it three times) and spend thousands of dollars.

And they'll lose business doing it, because if they dramatically alter the ending to this game, it'll be my last Bioware product (Trust me, I already don't buy Capcom, Konami, and Bethesday products...) I'm sure I'm a minority, but they'll lose some.

All because you don't like something. Who's treating who with disrespect here?

Our opinions are equal,as buyers I'm glad you understand common sense.

But you've missed my point and hit it at the same time, they don't deserve respect after the day 1 dlc incident let alone the pile of excrement that is the ending. And how many consumers want the ending changed vs those that are satisfied? oh yeah basic business 101.

Every industry is built around it's customers, again you've got the common sense down and yet you insist at the same time that we should take everything we buy and never demand changes we think would improve it, after listing the many ways the industry listens to us that makes no sense.

You're whole post seems to be taking one step forward then immediately denying you took that step, especially the first four paragraphs.

The industry doesn't need or notice your defense, and nothing ever improves without criticism. Maybe once you realize that you'll be able to clarify your opinion.

It's not on you or me^to change the ending, but every industry that wants to succeed appeals to the majority.

The "Day 1 DLC incident"? Are you kidding me? The Day 1 DLC was a bunch of rifles that were generally unnecessary (I used the Paladin, the Widow, the lightest SMG and the particle beam - none of which were in the DLC) and a maybe one hour expansion that provided prequel information (You certainly didn't need to know a little bit of background information about the Protheans...) and a character who was rather overpowered, to the point where I took him in a few missions to kick the tires and then benched him permanently.

It's so nothing, I can't even imagine this. Yeah, there's a possibility in the future that Day 1 DLC could get ugly, but a few things - as games get more and more expensive to make, developers have to figure out ways to make money. They're trying everything to profit-ize used games sales. Things like Day 1 DLC are an idea. Also, since the DLC purchase curve hits absolutely bottom after about 100 days, the earlier they offer it, the more it's purchased. You're looking for reasons to pick on EA/Bioware. This isn't it.

The "House of Valor DLC" for Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning was an issue for approximately five seconds, until people realized that chopping two non-plot hours out of a 100 hour game is still good value. Even on it's worst day, ME3 is still as long as Eternal Sonata (30 hours if you rush), and I enjoyed both games and don't regret a dime of it. ME3 has multiplayer and replay value, and ES has neither, honestly.

And see, where we differ...I don't mind your complaints. I think they're valid. I see parts where the ending could be improved. However the issue is asking versus demanding. I don't see where Bioware owes you anything, or they screwed up. The ending isn't fantastic, but it's does end, and that's really all they owe you. The RME community gave up on normal positive dialogue a while ago. These attempts to force Bioware to give you a new ending, while you may view them as justified - I view them as entitled. I think you received something and you want something else for free even though Bioware doesn't owe you anything. Now they may want to do it because there's a lot of unhappy customers, but that's their choice to make, not your choice to attempt to dictate to them through PR and publicity stunts and general mob mentality.

I think that's the big difference. If they had come back on their own in a month after some forum chatter and said..."we're going to do an addon that adds to the endings, includes a little thing where the crew rescues the injured Shepard and then works on rebuilding the Mass Relays as a DLC", that's fine. They have that choice. For Bioware to basically admit they caved to fan pressure, that's horrific on both sides. It's a pyrrhic victory at best.

And I think any industry becoming more answerable to it's consumers is a good thing, by that token once again I think we're well within our rights to demand a better ending in the same way that we'd be within our rights to complain if at a restaurant we had an amazing meal that at the end of which the chef came out and farted in our face.

This worship the games industry seems to get from some baffles me completely, they aren't your friends they are company's and like any company are at the mercy of there consumers.

No, you don't get it. You're well within your rights, because legally you can do whatever you want, but you're not right. This isn't correct, and it isn't a good thing.

The reason being is that a game represents the creative force of a design team. They didn't ask you for help. They make something, and you choose whether or not you want to buy it. If you buy it and enjoy it great. If you don't, you're welcome to try and return it, but in this case, it would be hard to justify because the game isn't terrible (in fact the game is rather good), but the ending is terrible.

It's not correct to try and enforce your personal standards on what the story should be on the people that created the story. Mostly because it's their story and they should be able to tell it whatever way they want. This isn't a case of accountability - the game isn't defective. You just didn't like a small part.

More importantly, as much as we talk about moral event horizons with Day 1 DLC, this is just as bad. Allowing an angry mob to dictate what a company should and shouldn't do is lunacy. More importantly, this is potentially millions of dollars that Bioware is going to have to eat to bring back developers, writers, artists, voice actors - and the entitled masses aren't going to accept paying for it. What's next? Should WOW gamers make Blizzard redo Dragon Soul because it's boring? Would a group of crazed modern warfare gamers be allowed to coerce Thatgamecompany into inserting guns and terrorists into Journey?

This is an incredibly dangerous precedent for author choice and storytelling. Companies are going to be afraid to give you complex narratives, because if the masses are too f**king stupid to understand them, they'll just demand something else. Triple A titles are going to tread on dangerous water, because if you think the ME3 ending is bad, it's nothing compared to the stupidity of some other games. Ever finished AC:Brotherhood? Or Deus Ex:Human Revolution? Both of those are TERRIBLE.

This isn't a measure of worship - this is an artist, who would rather not make art then let an angry mob dictate to me how I create it suggesting to you that this is a terrible idea. Trust me, if I worked for Bioware, I'd be job hunting before I considered a wholesale change to the ending. I guarantee, you start this crap, you're going to lose people in this industry who make things that you like, because they wouldn't put up with this.

Ever read "The Fountainhead", where Howard Roark blew up the building because they changed the building without his permission? It's like that to me. If it's like that to me, it'll be like that to other artists. Maybe not all of them, but some - and these will be things that you will miss. The high concept games like Mass Effect are going to get fewer and farther between because for the publisher/developer, there will be liability. It's much easier to give you no story then run the risk of having to spend money to fix one.

If Bioware changes the ending, you may think you win, but everyone loses.

Have you seen the ending to ME3? are you really going to tell me that it was a deep artistic an brilliant and we just don't get it? it's exactly the same as deus ex: HR without the narration giving some closure on the world. Again you have such massive double standards it's like you can't give an opinion without immediately refuting it.

And I disagree that it's a bad thing because of that ending, that's an example of one or two people who thought they knew better then the rest of the writing team and the fans in general, people saw it as the plot hole ridden mess it was and complained. They'll take this lesson going forward or like you say they'll chicken out completely if they have a fear of money.

You're putting everything you have on this artistic integrity which by the way I find hilarious that suddenly the argument over whether games are an art form has suddenly been decided, but here's the thing art isn't immune to criticism, art isn't immune to completely misrepresenting it's medium, art isn't some static thing it's in the eye of the beholder and when I look at the ending I don't see art I see a mess.

A mass quitting of game writers you say? I might believe and be happy with that if it involved whoever wrote the ending because I can almost guarantee you it wasn't the same people who wrote most of the truly powerful moments in the series.

You seem to think the whole series is the work of one or two people, you are provably wrong there has been at least two different teams by there own admission and almost none of them were involved with the ending.

In short and In the theme of your post. You might think you're right but you're wrong.

 

[Darkcerb]

Spoiler

WARNING: WALL OF TEXT INCOMING.

Bad analogy is bad. First off, a car wouldn't blow up, unless you used some kind of explosive, or it was involved in a very unlucky crash, was poorly designed, and the fuel tank somehow ruptured. I've never heard of a car blowing up for no reason.

Assuming it DID somehow happen, or something less extreme happened (like the transmission or engine failed), it'd likely be covered under the MANUFACTURER'S WARRANTY. This is a special warranty that the car ships with, and a LEGAL OBLIGATION for the manufacturer to cover all repair costs. It usually consists of 2 years of total coverage for any defects, then another 2 years of drive-train coverage. There are extended warranties and such, too, which you PAY EXTRA FOR. If your car craps out after the warranty expires, or you buy an older car without a warranty and something goes wrong, you're screwed.

However, if you don't like the stock rims or want to install some engine mods, you can't send the goddamn bill to the manufacturer, then ***** when they decline to pay it. That is a much more apt analogy for this situation.

Since it's unlikely that your game is going to have transmission problems, you do NOT get a manufacturer warranty with it. Even if your game won't start and crashes on startup, it's unlikely you'll receive any compensation, and even a return is unlikely, since the issue is likely at your end, and your PC doesn't support the game for whatever reason. That is an actual critical failure, yet still you are not likely to receive any help with it. You not liking the ending does not IN ANY WAY oblige the developer to do anything about it. Even if millions of people don't like it, they still aren't obliged to do anything, although they may eventually cave (although I hope not).

TL;DR: Your analogy is crap.

Fine a better analogy, you goto a restaurant you don't like the food.

What do you do? Thats right you take it back and they'll get you something else or remake it if its not cooked the way you want it.

If you own a restaurant that lets say sells sandwiches and 80% of the customers come back and complain.

Are you under any obligation to change it? No legally you don't, but you'll completely lose all the business you have so you better damn well change it.

At this point your really just pulling straws, Bioware has an obligation to satisfy their customers or risk losing business and profits. Is it a legal binding contract obligation, no. Is it still an obligation? Yes.

This analogy's just as bad as the car one.

This isn't a case where you didn't like the food because the food is wrong - this is a case where you didn't like the food because you didn't like the food.

Now, they can choose to give you different food, because they want to retain you as a customer, but they're under no obligation to do so, legally or otherwise. In fact, since you've gone from a customer politely saying you don't like the food, to a customer loudly yelling you don't like the food, to a customer insulting waiters and kitchen staff and going from table to table telling people the food sucks and trying to shade their experience, they should probably throw you out on your butt. (BTW, since apparently nobody seems to get this - I'm extending your metaphor, and "you" means the whole side of your community, not you individually.)

It's like you tell a three year old - if you ask for something, you might get it or you might not. You demand something, you definitely won't get it. You throw a tantrum, not only will you not get it, but all you're going to get is a sore behind when we get home.

It's about time a large group of entitled gamers got a well-deserved spanking.

Since you're so keen on lumping everyone together and then exaggerating the point perhaps we should start doing the same?

I'm tired of the industry sympathizers who would take it firmly in the rear and ask for more instead of complain that they're getting shafted, you've proved you're one with your cheerful dismissal of the day one dlc, the war on used games and piracy hurts only one group the loyal customers.

I'm not sure where you're getting this insulted staff business from and I suspect this is where you're whole point stems from. Kindly point me to all this rabble rousing is, and even if you can I'll point you to two more reasonable well thought out break downs on the ending.

Take it in the a**? Are you daft? Just think about it this way. Your average movie - 90 minutes. Mass Effect - somewhere between 30 and 100 hours, depending on how hard you ran side missions. Even at 30 hours, which is a guaranteed bad ending, you're talking over 19 full length theatrical movies to get the same level of entertainment.

At 7 dollars a ticket (and that's cheap), you're talking $133 dollars, $63 more then you paid for the special edition to get the same entertainment. Add in DLC, multiplayer, and you're getting hundreds and hundreds of dollars in value per game.

They aren't shafting you, you idiot. Your just so entitled, you don't really get it. Here's the thing - imagine they didn't release it day one. Imagine they released it next Tuesday, same thing - free for collectors, $10 for everyone else. Would you have any right to complain?

DLC doesn't sell after about 60 days. At all. Past a month, it's low. Bethesda learned this the hard way. The best DLCs for Fallout 3 were the last two, and they couldn't sell them to save their lives. (Didn't help that I was ticked at them for rewriting their bad ending just to sell that DLC.)

Go watch the Extra Credits about this. Maybe the pretty cartoons will help.

The used games thing makes sense in a way. There needs to be a middle ground so users get equity for their purchases and developers can make residuals on their games like they should. The Microsoft 720/PS4, if they try to ban used games will get exactly what they deserve. Gamers will turn on them. The console makers aren't doing the right thing, but buying used does kind of suck.

Why should game companies support piracy? If you steal my stuff, I should be able to cut off your arm, like in the fake arabia they make up in movies.

You seem to think that anyone who supports game companies making money for producing high quality product or not supporting a legion of entitled whiny gamers is some mindless corporate syncophant. That isn't true.

I don't think every member of the retake community have done horrible stuff, but the community should really be responsible and make sure to disassociate with and condemn the actions of the ones who are doing inappropriate responses.

Do you read your posts at all? It's amazing all the vitriol you lump at the anti-ending crowd when you have so far not given any evidence of such, all I see is a large volume of people complaining about the ending. Maybe you're confusing numbers with the kind of vitriol you've been spouting.

And I think anyone who blindly supports games companys are mindless sycophants especially with every post they refute there own posts. It's like arguing with a schizophrenic.

And yes you do believe everyone's a part of the extremists you insist exist, why don't you re-read your post where you lump us all together.

If I like you took you as the only representative of your side of the argument I'd consider myself exceptionally lucky, you can't make a post without vitriol directed at whoever your quoting and also whichever side of the argument they've taken. I'm done arguing with you. Remember that you're wrong, just to keep this in theme.

Don't be surprised when you treat someone like crap they'll respond in kind, which is perfectly attributable to the ending as well, they threw a vague plot hole ridden mess at us and called it art so we called them on it.

 

[J.d. Scott]

I think you're giving them far to much credit, when the industry treats us like walking wallets why should we treat them with any respect?

And a screen urging us to buy DLC right after that shit ending is exactly that.

To quote a great article on the ending of ME3:

"No one with any artistic integrity would have let that absolute debacle of an ending be released. No one. The ending was so inexcusable on so many levels, that I can?t help but laugh at people?s attempts to defend it by calling it art. As if Art were not subject to ridicule and criticism." - http://jmstevenson.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/all-that-matters-is-the-ending-part-2-mass-effect-3/

And we're consumers as well as fans, maybe some people need to be reminded that, we can demand whatever we want from the product. This isn't a bunch of people walking into a free museum and demanding actual art be changed, this is a bunch of consumers demanding a terrible ending to a game be changed.

Please. What self-indulgence. "treats us like walking wallets". What industry in the history of anything has done more for it's consumers then gaming? Every industry trend, every game, every concept is built around end users. The content is interactive, companies acknowledge you, allows your input, builds forums for your feedback, builds social media to talk to you, acknowledges the gamng press so you can read interviews...

Especially Bioware. Shadow Broker? Built on fan suggestion. Increased Tali and Garrus - fan suggestion. I think their romance (if you don't romance either one) is a fan suggestion.

You want a new ending? SO WHAT? I do not. Is your complaint more valid then mine? I spent the same money you did - I even bought the collector's edition with the shiny case. I actually have an N7 mousepad (saw it on sale).

Why should they treat your concern with any respect? Because you're loud and obnoxious? Because you're a "paying customer"? They gave you a game, you gave them money. All things being equal, you've probably gotten more value out of that disc then you have out of a lot of similar gaming purchases. Either way, the transaction is complete.

And obviously, you want this new ending for free, even though they gave you the ending they wanted to. So you want them to bring back writers and animators, voice actors, mocap specialists and coders (since they'll need to code it three times) and spend thousands of dollars.

And they'll lose business doing it, because if they dramatically alter the ending to this game, it'll be my last Bioware product (Trust me, I already don't buy Capcom, Konami, and Bethesday products...) I'm sure I'm a minority, but they'll lose some.

All because you don't like something. Who's treating who with disrespect here?

Our opinions are equal,as buyers I'm glad you understand common sense.

But you've missed my point and hit it at the same time, they don't deserve respect after the day 1 dlc incident let alone the pile of excrement that is the ending. And how many consumers want the ending changed vs those that are satisfied? oh yeah basic business 101.

Every industry is built around it's customers, again you've got the common sense down and yet you insist at the same time that we should take everything we buy and never demand changes we think would improve it, after listing the many ways the industry listens to us that makes no sense.

You're whole post seems to be taking one step forward then immediately denying you took that step, especially the first four paragraphs.

The industry doesn't need or notice your defense, and nothing ever improves without criticism. Maybe once you realize that you'll be able to clarify your opinion.

It's not on you or me^to change the ending, but every industry that wants to succeed appeals to the majority.

The "Day 1 DLC incident"? Are you kidding me? The Day 1 DLC was a bunch of rifles that were generally unnecessary (I used the Paladin, the Widow, the lightest SMG and the particle beam - none of which were in the DLC) and a maybe one hour expansion that provided prequel information (You certainly didn't need to know a little bit of background information about the Protheans...) and a character who was rather overpowered, to the point where I took him in a few missions to kick the tires and then benched him permanently.

It's so nothing, I can't even imagine this. Yeah, there's a possibility in the future that Day 1 DLC could get ugly, but a few things - as games get more and more expensive to make, developers have to figure out ways to make money. They're trying everything to profit-ize used games sales. Things like Day 1 DLC are an idea. Also, since the DLC purchase curve hits absolutely bottom after about 100 days, the earlier they offer it, the more it's purchased. You're looking for reasons to pick on EA/Bioware. This isn't it.

The "House of Valor DLC" for Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning was an issue for approximately five seconds, until people realized that chopping two non-plot hours out of a 100 hour game is still good value. Even on it's worst day, ME3 is still as long as Eternal Sonata (30 hours if you rush), and I enjoyed both games and don't regret a dime of it. ME3 has multiplayer and replay value, and ES has neither, honestly.

And see, where we differ...I don't mind your complaints. I think they're valid. I see parts where the ending could be improved. However the issue is asking versus demanding. I don't see where Bioware owes you anything, or they screwed up. The ending isn't fantastic, but it's does end, and that's really all they owe you. The RME community gave up on normal positive dialogue a while ago. These attempts to force Bioware to give you a new ending, while you may view them as justified - I view them as entitled. I think you received something and you want something else for free even though Bioware doesn't owe you anything. Now they may want to do it because there's a lot of unhappy customers, but that's their choice to make, not your choice to attempt to dictate to them through PR and publicity stunts and general mob mentality.

I think that's the big difference. If they had come back on their own in a month after some forum chatter and said..."we're going to do an addon that adds to the endings, includes a little thing where the crew rescues the injured Shepard and then works on rebuilding the Mass Relays as a DLC", that's fine. They have that choice. For Bioware to basically admit they caved to fan pressure, that's horrific on both sides. It's a pyrrhic victory at best.

And I think any industry becoming more answerable to it's consumers is a good thing, by that token once again I think we're well within our rights to demand a better ending in the same way that we'd be within our rights to complain if at a restaurant we had an amazing meal that at the end of which the chef came out and farted in our face.

This worship the games industry seems to get from some baffles me completely, they aren't your friends they are company's and like any company are at the mercy of there consumers.

No, you don't get it. You're well within your rights, because legally you can do whatever you want, but you're not right. This isn't correct, and it isn't a good thing.

The reason being is that a game represents the creative force of a design team. They didn't ask you for help. They make something, and you choose whether or not you want to buy it. If you buy it and enjoy it great. If you don't, you're welcome to try and return it, but in this case, it would be hard to justify because the game isn't terrible (in fact the game is rather good), but the ending is terrible.

It's not correct to try and enforce your personal standards on what the story should be on the people that created the story. Mostly because it's their story and they should be able to tell it whatever way they want. This isn't a case of accountability - the game isn't defective. You just didn't like a small part.

More importantly, as much as we talk about moral event horizons with Day 1 DLC, this is just as bad. Allowing an angry mob to dictate what a company should and shouldn't do is lunacy. More importantly, this is potentially millions of dollars that Bioware is going to have to eat to bring back developers, writers, artists, voice actors - and the entitled masses aren't going to accept paying for it. What's next? Should WOW gamers make Blizzard redo Dragon Soul because it's boring? Would a group of crazed modern warfare gamers be allowed to coerce Thatgamecompany into inserting guns and terrorists into Journey?

This is an incredibly dangerous precedent for author choice and storytelling. Companies are going to be afraid to give you complex narratives, because if the masses are too f**king stupid to understand them, they'll just demand something else. Triple A titles are going to tread on dangerous water, because if you think the ME3 ending is bad, it's nothing compared to the stupidity of some other games. Ever finished AC:Brotherhood? Or Deus Ex:Human Revolution? Both of those are TERRIBLE.

This isn't a measure of worship - this is an artist, who would rather not make art then let an angry mob dictate to me how I create it suggesting to you that this is a terrible idea. Trust me, if I worked for Bioware, I'd be job hunting before I considered a wholesale change to the ending. I guarantee, you start this crap, you're going to lose people in this industry who make things that you like, because they wouldn't put up with this.

Ever read "The Fountainhead", where Howard Roark blew up the building because they changed the building without his permission? It's like that to me. If it's like that to me, it'll be like that to other artists. Maybe not all of them, but some - and these will be things that you will miss. The high concept games like Mass Effect are going to get fewer and farther between because for the publisher/developer, there will be liability. It's much easier to give you no story then run the risk of having to spend money to fix one.

If Bioware changes the ending, you may think you win, but everyone loses.

Have you seen the ending to ME3? are you really going to tell me that it was a deep artistic an brilliant and we just don't get it? it's exactly the same as deus ex: HR without the narration giving some closure on the world. Again you have such massive double standards it's like you can't give an opinion without immediately refuting it.

And I disagree that it's a bad thing because of that ending, that's an example of one or two people who thought they knew better then the rest of the writing team and the fans in general, people saw it as the plot hole ridden mess it was and complained. They'll take this lesson going forward or like you say they'll chicken out completely if they have a fear of money.

You're putting everything you have on this artistic integrity which by the way I find hilarious that suddenly the argument over whether games are an art form has suddenly been decided, but here's the thing art isn't immune to criticism, art isn't immune to completely misrepresenting it's medium, art isn't some static thing it's in the eye of the beholder and when I look at the ending I don't see art I see a mess.

A mass quitting of game writers you say? I might believe and be happy with that if it involved whoever wrote the ending because I can almost guarantee you it wasn't the same people who wrote most of the truly powerful moments in the series.

You seem to think the whole series is the work of one or two people, you are provably wrong there has been at least two different teams by there own admission and almost none of them were involved with the ending.

In short and In the theme of your post. You might think you're right but you're wrong.

It doesn't matter if games are viewed as artistic or not. The public doesn't get to make a decision on whether or not something is viewed as art. Ask a 6 year old whether his mashed potato sculpture is art. He'll probably say yes. He made it, it's his choice. You don't have to agree, but you have to respect his decision.

Your seem to think that I'm restricting your right to criticize the ending. I'm not. You can whine and b***h forever. It's when you try to force the authors to change the ending, either by direct or indirect force that you're crossing the line of right and wrong.

I like the ending. I get the idea of the monomyth. It wasn't perfect, but even if it was terrible to me, I'd never even consider trying to force them to change it. Nor would I change any other game's who ending I didn't like (The ones listed above). That was the point of the comparison. Bad game endings aren't special or new. Bad Dudes on the NES had a terrible ending. LOTS OF NES games had terrible endings. However, ME's the only community that feels so entitled that they'd tried to make the company spend thousands of dollars to fix it. That's partially their fault, as they've apparently had much of a distance between fan and creator, which apparently a lot of people are so deluded, they think that there is no line or that they're on the other side.

More importantly, it doesn't matter whether it was two people or twelve or a hundred. I know Drew was gone, and I read that hatchet job on the PA Forums (which I genuinely hope violated that guy's NDA and cost him his job). I'm well versed in the complaints, and it's not like I don't agree with the criticism, but the expectation is what bothers me. The people were involved were Mac and Casey. They're the lead designer and the lead writer. How many writers needed to be involved until you accepted it as the word of Bioware? Three? Four? They were writers and designers for Bioware, and they were in charge of the entire project. I don't have any reason to doubt that this is the will of the people creating the game. Maybe not all of them, but that really doesn't matter.

As for who's right and who's wrong, we can agree to disagree on that point - but at least I understand your position. You've decided you're entitled to something for free and that's your position, irregardless of any argument on the opposite side. And it's not like I completely disagree with your points, but they don't matter. You could have a million positive points - Bioware shouldn't have to change the ending, especially not by caving to fan pressure.

I don't mind them refining or tweaking the ending, but if there's a dramatic alteration to the narrative in that ending, we'll be on opposite sides, but unlike you, I won't whine and cry and demand. I'll just never purchase another Bioware product again.

 

[J.d. Scott]

Spoiler

WARNING: WALL OF TEXT INCOMING.

Bad analogy is bad. First off, a car wouldn't blow up, unless you used some kind of explosive, or it was involved in a very unlucky crash, was poorly designed, and the fuel tank somehow ruptured. I've never heard of a car blowing up for no reason.

Assuming it DID somehow happen, or something less extreme happened (like the transmission or engine failed), it'd likely be covered under the MANUFACTURER'S WARRANTY. This is a special warranty that the car ships with, and a LEGAL OBLIGATION for the manufacturer to cover all repair costs. It usually consists of 2 years of total coverage for any defects, then another 2 years of drive-train coverage. There are extended warranties and such, too, which you PAY EXTRA FOR. If your car craps out after the warranty expires, or you buy an older car without a warranty and something goes wrong, you're screwed.

However, if you don't like the stock rims or want to install some engine mods, you can't send the goddamn bill to the manufacturer, then ***** when they decline to pay it. That is a much more apt analogy for this situation.

Since it's unlikely that your game is going to have transmission problems, you do NOT get a manufacturer warranty with it. Even if your game won't start and crashes on startup, it's unlikely you'll receive any compensation, and even a return is unlikely, since the issue is likely at your end, and your PC doesn't support the game for whatever reason. That is an actual critical failure, yet still you are not likely to receive any help with it. You not liking the ending does not IN ANY WAY oblige the developer to do anything about it. Even if millions of people don't like it, they still aren't obliged to do anything, although they may eventually cave (although I hope not).

TL;DR: Your analogy is crap.

Fine a better analogy, you goto a restaurant you don't like the food.

What do you do? Thats right you take it back and they'll get you something else or remake it if its not cooked the way you want it.

If you own a restaurant that lets say sells sandwiches and 80% of the customers come back and complain.

Are you under any obligation to change it? No legally you don't, but you'll completely lose all the business you have so you better damn well change it.

At this point your really just pulling straws, Bioware has an obligation to satisfy their customers or risk losing business and profits. Is it a legal binding contract obligation, no. Is it still an obligation? Yes.

This analogy's just as bad as the car one.

This isn't a case where you didn't like the food because the food is wrong - this is a case where you didn't like the food because you didn't like the food.

Now, they can choose to give you different food, because they want to retain you as a customer, but they're under no obligation to do so, legally or otherwise. In fact, since you've gone from a customer politely saying you don't like the food, to a customer loudly yelling you don't like the food, to a customer insulting waiters and kitchen staff and going from table to table telling people the food sucks and trying to shade their experience, they should probably throw you out on your butt. (BTW, since apparently nobody seems to get this - I'm extending your metaphor, and "you" means the whole side of your community, not you individually.)

It's like you tell a three year old - if you ask for something, you might get it or you might not. You demand something, you definitely won't get it. You throw a tantrum, not only will you not get it, but all you're going to get is a sore behind when we get home.

It's about time a large group of entitled gamers got a well-deserved spanking.

Since you're so keen on lumping everyone together and then exaggerating the point perhaps we should start doing the same?

I'm tired of the industry sympathizers who would take it firmly in the rear and ask for more instead of complain that they're getting shafted, you've proved you're one with your cheerful dismissal of the day one dlc, the war on used games and piracy hurts only one group the loyal customers.

I'm not sure where you're getting this insulted staff business from and I suspect this is where you're whole point stems from. Kindly point me to all this rabble rousing is, and even if you can I'll point you to two more reasonable well thought out break downs on the ending.

Take it in the a**? Are you daft? Just think about it this way. Your average movie - 90 minutes. Mass Effect - somewhere between 30 and 100 hours, depending on how hard you ran side missions. Even at 30 hours, which is a guaranteed bad ending, you're talking over 19 full length theatrical movies to get the same level of entertainment.

At 7 dollars a ticket (and that's cheap), you're talking $133 dollars, $63 more then you paid for the special edition to get the same entertainment. Add in DLC, multiplayer, and you're getting hundreds and hundreds of dollars in value per game.

They aren't shafting you, you idiot. Your just so entitled, you don't really get it. Here's the thing - imagine they didn't release it day one. Imagine they released it next Tuesday, same thing - free for collectors, $10 for everyone else. Would you have any right to complain?

DLC doesn't sell after about 60 days. At all. Past a month, it's low. Bethesda learned this the hard way. The best DLCs for Fallout 3 were the last two, and they couldn't sell them to save their lives. (Didn't help that I was ticked at them for rewriting their bad ending just to sell that DLC.)

Go watch the Extra Credits about this. Maybe the pretty cartoons will help.

The used games thing makes sense in a way. There needs to be a middle ground so users get equity for their purchases and developers can make residuals on their games like they should. The Microsoft 720/PS4, if they try to ban used games will get exactly what they deserve. Gamers will turn on them. The console makers aren't doing the right thing, but buying used does kind of suck.

Why should game companies support piracy? If you steal my stuff, I should be able to cut off your arm, like in the fake arabia they make up in movies.

You seem to think that anyone who supports game companies making money for producing high quality product or not supporting a legion of entitled whiny gamers is some mindless corporate syncophant. That isn't true.

I don't think every member of the retake community have done horrible stuff, but the community should really be responsible and make sure to disassociate with and condemn the actions of the ones who are doing inappropriate responses.

Do you read your posts at all? It's amazing all the vitriol you lump at the anti-ending crowd when you have so far not given any evidence of such, all I see is a large volume of people complaining about the ending. Maybe you're confusing numbers with the kind of vitriol you've been spouting.

And I think anyone who blindly supports games companys are mindless sycophants especially with every post they refute there own posts. It's like arguing with a schizophrenic.

And yes you do believe everyone's a part of the extremists you insist exist, why don't you re-read your post where you lump us all together.

If I like you took you as the only representative of your side of the argument I'd consider myself exceptionally lucky, you can't make a post without vitriol directed at whoever your quoting and also whichever side of the argument they've taken. I'm done arguing with you. Remember that you're wrong, just to keep this in theme.

Don't be surprised when you treat someone like crap they'll respond in kind, which is perfectly attributable to the ending as well, they threw a vague plot hole ridden mess at us and called it art so we called them on it.

What vitriol? Calling you whiny b***hes? Saying you're entitled? Please. That's mild. I haven't called anyone a "fat dyke" yet, so maybe vitriol levels should be measured. And to be honest, it's the truth. Sucks to be you. Maybe it's about time you heard it, since presenting rational arguments seems to fall on tin ears. I could sit here and be nice and suggest that maybe Bioware doesn't owe you anything, and maybe they should be allowed to present and end their game their way, but you'd just mock the suggestion. At least I get to enjoy my responses when I take you to task in an insulting way as opposed to just a logical one.

The same people who went absolutely bananas when Roger Ebert dismissed games as an artistic form are now dismissing it themselves, because it's inconvenient for their tainted logic that allows them to believe that they're entitled to a new ending just because it's possible. Talk about inconsistent or schizophrenic. Half the people posting on your side have "Han Shot First" t-shirts in their closet.

Now I ripped that idiot savagezion a new one, but he's the one that decided to draw the incredibly egotistical parallels between himself and actual social justice crusaders. You think I'm crazy? He wants to connect this pettiness to the end of segregation. I don't feel a spec of remorse. You're welcome to be as vitriolic to me as I am to you, but don't connect everything I say about an individual person (i.e. you) to the community as a whole. Now the "entitled whiny b***hes with no perpective" (or variants thereof) - that you can apply to the community with my blessing.

Besides, if I or Moviebob or anyone decided to get on Reddit and decided to insult the sexuality or gender of the creator of RME, I'd take the same hatchet to them that I take to your posts and I'd expect the same in kind. None of those things had anything to do with this.

As for me implying that your community is responsible for the bad stuff that happened to Patricia Helfer, or some of the negative things/accusations said to or about Casey, or RME abusing Child's Play, I'm not saying you in particular, or any one individual is responsible, but your community is. Your community needs to make a better general effort to avoid personal attacks that have nothing to do with this (if I say you're shortsighted or stupid, its in the context of the ideas you're presenting - what does calling somebody a "dyke" have to do with a debate about gaming?) and attempts to force Bioware to do something they didn't really want to do and police those who are doing things that are not part of your general message. If you really want this to be a polite "asking" conversation for Bioware to give a you a new ending out of the kindness of their hearts, then you should distance yourself from the people who are demanding it, or trying to force them to with PR stunts.

More importantly, even though it's a general statement apparently in an attempt to punish me for making general statements about your community (For the record, you guys are whiny b***hes...), the suggestion that I'm sort of mindless syncophant is completely false. You're entitled to believe it, but I'll present why I'm not anyway.

I completely disagree with Capcom's incredibly asinine fake ending/real ending DLC to Asura's Wrath. The game was absolutely terrible, so it really doesn't matter, but it was a crappy thing to do. I was fairly vocal with 38Studios over making House of Valor 0-Day DLC when they said it wasn't, but they explained the issue and apologized, and honestly, KOA is pretty darn good with or without it. I'm more then a little perturbed with Casey's statement about the endings. I'm willing to attribute it to a mistake on his part, but it wasn't a very bright decision. He should probably issue an apology and learn how to interview properly if he's going to give them. That thing with Goonswarm and the suicidal player on EVE - utterly reprehensible. That thing with GAME and their ROI employees - the same. I've been boycotting Bethesda Software purchases since Fallout 3: Broken Steel, since they edited their terrible ending into a new still completely terrible ending, but now with room for DLC. I don't purchase Konami products either, but that's mostly because they did such a terrible job hatcheting the rereleases of MGS and Silent Hill and they haven't made a new IP I've wanted in a while. I don't purchase Capcom products either. I don't like what they did to their Mega Man fans and their non-fighting games are generally utter garbage. I am lukewarm on Ubisoft. They do something good (sticking with I Am Alive) then something terrible (holding BG&E 2 hostage to try and sell copies of Rayman Origins). I don't support on-disc DRM for console games. I won't purchase any console that has that and I don't purchase any PC game that have SecurROM or SafeDisc. I support moves that provide new users with value and tries to monetize used game sales, because if the game developers and producers make money, it allows them to make more games - to a point. I didn't support the Battlefield 3 one because the game has very little single player content, and the pass bans online play without that separate purchase - making the game fairly valueless without it. It's one thing to encourage sales of a new copy benefit- it's another to force them.

It's called NUANCE. You don't have to be perfectly in support of one side or the other. I know it's lost on a generation that's grown up with stuff like Fox News, but intelligent people can still evaluate individual cases rationally. Not every case is the same.