So...Super Mario Maker

[Neverhoodian]

Kind of surprised nobody's made a thread about this yet...

So Super Mario Maker was released a few days ago. Just wondering what the folks here think of it now that it's out.

As for me, I'm really enjoying it so far. The creation tool may be somewhat limited compared to what romhacks can accomplish [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xyvQQSbX5o], but there are tons of possibilities nonetheless. One of my favorite aspects is seeing how enemies and environments from newer Mario games have been lovingly recreated for the older ones. It's fun seeing NES-tified versions of things like ghost houses and Wigglers. In a way, Super Mario Maker kind of reminds me of Shovel Knight. Both titles aren't about what you actually played as a kid, but what you REMEMBER playing as a kid. Both play up the nostalgia factor in a compelling way, embellishing everything you liked while inserting just enough modern gaming conventions to make things seem familiar, yet new.

It ain't perfect though, so here's a few quibbles I have:

-I hate how much of the creation tool is locked at first, with new elements slowly drip-fed over the course of several days. I understand Nintendo didn't want to overwhelm new users, but time-locking it away like a F2P cow-clicker isn't the answer. All it does is make people frustrated waiting around or entice them to manipulate the WiiU's clock to unlock everything right away.

-As mentioned previously, the tool is powerful, but there are still limitations. Some omissions are downright baffling. For example, I can't stack coins on top of enemies, even though you can stack enemies on top of each other.

-I was hoping the 10-Mario and 100-Mario challenge would let you keep your powerups between levels, but nope. I realize many powerups are incompatible between Mario games, but could they at least let me start the next stage as big Mario?

-This isn't so much a fault of the game itself as it is a validation that Sturgeon's Law is still very much in effect. After playing nearly one hundred user-created stages, I can confidently say that most people don't know a damn thing about level design. The vast majority of levels I've run across are either piss-easy straight stretches with 1-Ups out the ass or unrelenting enemy spam in a poor imitation of Kaizo Mario difficulty. It's also clear many people don't seriously playtest their levels, often resulting in laughably easy exploits. In my last 100-Mario run I cleared four stages by killing a Lakitu, hopping in its cloud and flying past the myriad of obstacles the author clearly put there to be a challenge.

-No Koopalings? Seriously?! Yet you included that lame Bowser Jr. in there. I don't understand why Nintendo wouldn't include such iconic characters, particularly since they've put them in games like the recent Smash Bros. and Mario Kart titles.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Nice to hear it's fun.
I wonder if Yahtzee will review it.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Haven't played it and I don't understand it, it's like people buying for all the ingredients of a full course meal at the price of the meal itself, wouldn't it better just buy a game by people who actually know how to design one? Or atleast buy it for a smaller price?

Or just buy a Mario game, really.
Or download a romhack.

 

[MeatMachine]

Quick question:
The original Super Mario Bros. controls were not as tight as later incarnations, such as changing direction in air while jumping being much more restrictive and less precise than in later Mario games. If you play the classic Super Mario Bros. style on Mario Maker, are those minor, yet significant differences in controls still present, or do all graphical versions of Mario handle identically?

 

[Theminimanx]

Quick question:
The original Super Mario Bros. controls were not as tight as later incarnations, such as changing direction in air while jumping being much more restrictive and less precise than in later Mario games. If you play the classic Super Mario Bros. style on Mario Maker, are those minor, yet significant differences in controls still present, or do all graphical versions of Mario handle identically?

From what I've heard all the different graphic styles have their respective physics. So a level using the Super Mario World graphics feels a lot different from a level using the Super Mario Bros. 3 graphics.

 

[Hades]

So far I'm having fun making my own level. I haven't had the courage to post them online though after seeing the amazing stuff others have made. Another reason I'm not posting my levels yet is because I'm locked out of the tools to make what I want. Sub levels are important to many of the idea's I have so its a bit frustrating not being able to make them yet.

I agree with you on the Koopalings. I can live with having just Jr and not them in principle but in this case its just weird. The Koopalings appeared in almost all games featured in Mario Maker and Jr in just a single one.

The lack of boss battles is also slightly disappointing. I really need to go out of my way to force a fight with Bowser rather then having people just run straight past him.

 

[Mikeybb]

This is the game that's part of the reason uncle Ninty has been running around the internet trying to bring down rom hacks like a drunk armed with a broom handle trying to swat flies?
Just about as effectively too.

I have to admit, it's got some appeal looking at a lets play of it, but find myself in total agreement over the slow unlocking of the building elements.
Granted, like Neverhoodian says, you don't want to overwhelm your user with such a degree of choice they're lost, but it may have made a little more sense to roll that into a tutorial and allow people to skip ahead to a fully unlocked version should they feel they have the hang of it.

It'll probably take a little bit of time for the user created levels to experience a degree of natural selection.
I'm assuming there's a rating system available and if so then eventually the good level makers will rack up the good reviews and eventually gather user-fans like a big ol' katamari.

 

[Lufia Erim]

Nice to hear it's fun.
I wonder if Yahtzee will review it.

Wouldn't it be like trying to review gary's mod? Sure you can i guess but what's the point?

 

[Saltyk]

I don't own a Wii U, but I have some friends that do. And I have played around with Mario Maker over the weekend. I even made a level and had it published on one friend's account, it's called "Salty Much".

I feel I should point out that you can skip the wait by waiting for the unlock and then changing the date on the Wii U to the next day. That's what one of my friends did.

As for the game, I like it. It's fairly easy to use and you can pretty much get the hang of making levels within a few minutes. It's really easy to test out your level and even switch between game styles in an instant. Touch a button and test what you just built. Touch a button and change the style to Super Mario World. Use a mushroom and make a Koopa giant.

From what I can tell, the various games all play exactly as they are intended. It's a pretty satisfying game to play as well. Super Mario 3 feels like Super Mario 3, for example. However, I do have to say that the hit-boxes feel a bit off. I regularly landed on a Koopa's head to have it damage me, and this was very annoying in one of my friend's levels I played. I wasn't the only one who complained about this, either, so I highly doubt it was my imagination.

I'd also say that the game's primary draw is making levels, so if you don't have a bit of a creative spark, you probably won't enjoy the game. I could very easily see someone seeing the level creation as boring if they aren't motivated to make a level.

In addition, so many people seem to want to make nigh impossible levels rather than fun and creative levels[footnote]I'm not one to talk, the level I made I tried to make a bit difficult.[/footnote]. Check out some of the created levels like "10 Seconds".

At the end of the day, I'd recommend it for serious Mario fans and those who enjoy creative pursuits. It's a solid game. Though, I don't think it will be the Killer App that saves the Wii U.

Mario Maker: 10/10

 

[Neverhoodian]

Well, it appears a recent patch has gone some way to address my time lock complaint. Now if you mess around with the editor extensively and place lots of items you can get the next day's unlocks early. If you're persistent you can unlock everything this way from day one.

Haven't played it and I don't understand it, it's like people buying for all the ingredients of a full course meal at the price of the meal itself, wouldn't it better just buy a game by people who actually know how to design one? Or atleast buy it for a smaller price?

The big draw for the game is you can make the levels you want to play instead of an "official" selection. Don't get me wrong, I have great appreciation and respect for professional level designers, but sometimes I get a crazy idea for a stage in my head and want to run with it. For instance, I just created a level where Mario infiltrates a Star Destroyer. I doubt the big N would ever put something like that in an official Mario game.

Spoiler: Shameless plug for those interested

Level ID: 20EE-0000-0033-37BB

Quick question:
The original Super Mario Bros. controls were not as tight as later incarnations, such as changing direction in air while jumping being much more restrictive and less precise than in later Mario games. If you play the classic Super Mario Bros. style on Mario Maker, are those minor, yet significant differences in controls still present, or do all graphical versions of Mario handle identically?

Yep, all the different versions retain most of their original gameplay quirks, barring the occasional minor tweak (the screen in Super Mario Bros. can scroll to the left now). The same level can play radically differently depending on which game you choose.

 

[Something Amyss]

-I hate how much of the creation tool is locked at first, with new elements slowly drip-fed over the course of several days. I understand Nintendo didn't want to overwhelm new users, but time-locking it away like a F2P cow-clicker isn't the answer. All it does is make people frustrated waiting around or entice them to manipulate the WiiU's clock to unlock everything right away.

There have been a number of Nintendo games that have done this, unfortunately. Glad they decided to patch this out.

After playing nearly one hundred user-created stages, I can confidently say that most people don't know a damn thing about level design.

This is the impression I've got from watching videos. It seems like this is a super fun game when people get it right, and a yawner the rest of the time. Still seems like a game I'd want to purchase if I owned a Wii-U, but definitely not a system seller.

This is the game that's part of the reason uncle Ninty has been running around the internet trying to bring down rom hacks like a drunk armed with a broom handle trying to swat flies?
Just about as effectively too.

Well, I mean, they've been trying to do that for ages. At least now there's some alternative. Not sure that justifies the cost or anything, but still.

Wouldn't it be like trying to review gary's mod? Sure you can i guess but what's the point?

I don't know. After Yahtzee riffs on how you're basically paying for user content and whatnot, I imagine there would be an uptick in traffic around here for a while.

 

[MeatMachine]

Quick question:
The original Super Mario Bros. controls were not as tight as later incarnations, such as changing direction in air while jumping being much more restrictive and less precise than in later Mario games. If you play the classic Super Mario Bros. style on Mario Maker, are those minor, yet significant differences in controls still present, or do all graphical versions of Mario handle identically?

From what I've heard all the different graphic styles have their respective physics. So a level using the Super Mario World graphics feels a lot different from a level using the Super Mario Bros. 3 graphics.

Quick question:
The original Super Mario Bros. controls were not as tight as later incarnations, such as changing direction in air while jumping being much more restrictive and less precise than in later Mario games. If you play the classic Super Mario Bros. style on Mario Maker, are those minor, yet significant differences in controls still present, or do all graphical versions of Mario handle identically?

Yep, all the different versions retain most of their original gameplay quirks, barring the occasional minor tweak (the screen in Super Mario Bros. can scroll to the left now). The same level can play radically differently depending on which game you choose.

Yes... YES!

This was my main deciding factor in choosing whether or not I'd buy the game.

 

[Conner42]

Some of the levels are super dumb, but there are a lot that I've found to be a lot of fun. Especially ones that are more challenge or puzzle oriented. Honestly, giving the control of level design to the people who have probably been playing Mario games forever and have might have creative ideas of their own might be one of the best things that Nintendo has done for Mario.

I've found myself spending a lot more time on this game than I have on other games in a while, so I'm just in love with it right now ^_^

 

[Nuuu]

Nice to hear it's fun.
I wonder if Yahtzee will review it.

Wouldn't it be like trying to review gary's mod? Sure you can i guess but what's the point?

I'd say it'd be closer to trying to review something like Happy Wheels. At least in Garry's Mod if you know how to use lua code and put effort into it, you can completely change how the game works.

The biggest problem I see with Mario Maker and other Maker-esque games is that the mechanics are solid and unchangeable. While you can still do a lot of creative things, it forces the community to try to make more with less.
There's also one rule these games always forget: When you leave game creation to a young audience, they're going to try to copy whatever they find on the first page 100 times over.

I do have some hope that Mario Maker will eventually gather a large community of talented level designers, just because of the fact that it's Mario, it's just going to take some time to get unique ideas down.

 

[Shoggoth2588]

-No Koopalings? Seriously?! Yet you included that lame Bowser Jr. in there. I don't understand why Nintendo wouldn't include such iconic characters, particularly since they've put them in games like the recent Smash Bros. and Mario Kart titles.

That's...baffling. Can you at least unlock their skins like you can with the amiibo costumes? The Koopalings were re-introduced with...what was it, Super Mario 3D Land in a huge way and they're been in EVERY big Mario release since so it's kind of odd that they'd be dropped now. Maybe they'll be introduced as DLC? I'm sure we'll hear about SMM-DLC in the next Nintendo Direct (which feels like it's long overdue)

---

I don't own the game yet so I can't really talk...I plan on getting my copy on Friday and every time I see it I notice another little reference or nod to Mario Paint and it just makes me remember playing THAT game as a kid. I recall it being announced that levels from E3 and other trade shows are on the disc...do I have to unlock those or are they going to be thrown in randomly with the 10 and 100 Mario modes?

 

[WhiteTigerShiro]

Haven't played it and I don't understand it, it's like people buying for all the ingredients of a full course meal at the price of the meal itself, wouldn't it better just buy a game by people who actually know how to design one? Or atleast buy it for a smaller price?

It's more like buying the ingredients for potentially infinite meals, as prepared by other people who buy the same package, for the price of a single meal. Yeah sure, it's always basically the same meal (say... hamburgers), but everyone prepares it differently and with slightly different ingredients, and you can revisit the people who make the best hamburgers as often as you want. On top of that, there are several communities where people talk about who makes the best, or most interesting hamburgers.

The only reason to NOT buy it is if you don't like hamburgers (or Mario games) in the first place.

Edit: As for the whole "wouldn't you rather play levels designed by a professional" part of the argument, I always find that logic a bit flawed, as it assumes that someone being paid to do something automatically means that the person is the best that there is at the job. Don't get me wrong, many professional level designers earn their paychecks, but if the modding community from several games has taught us anything, it's that there are a LOT of talented people out there who can design content on par with, if not better than some professionally-made content. Here's the kicker though, professionals are called professionals for a key reason; they get paid, and a company (in this case, Nintendo) can only pay for so many levels for a single game before the amount of money needed to bankroll level designers for new content out-shines the money coming-in from a game that people aren't buying as often anymore.

 

[ultrabiome]

I have been really loving SMM.

Sure, the slow drip (still slow) can be annoying, but I found after playing with a limited toolbox made me concentrate on how to use them effectively. When the next group of items unlocks, I end up doing some "play-testing" trying all of the new items out, but as this process has continued, I've found the later unlocks to be jarring, as the items get more and more specific - and it becomes harder to justify using them. And I haven't unlocked enough content to do the levels I've been thinking about yet, but I'm getting there. However, the process of editing, play-testing, editing and eventually uploading is super easy, fun, and fluid. My wife has even played and made levels (although she doesn't have the patience for extensive testing like I do) and had a blast!

Playing what the community makes has definitely been hit or miss, but I feel there is an over-estimate of shitty levels. I think a decent amount of players are trying to either make decent levels or stand out. The problem is one of often too many options. People get stuff unlocked, and then cram everything into their stage so they feel "done." Or expect players to spend dozens of lives and more than 10 minutes figuring out their level. But overall, I'm impressed with what people have come up with so far, and there already is so much content that it will be entertaining for a very long time.

 

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[go-10]

I really like the game but I fo have some small issues with it. The 2 biggest ones though are

1. frog suit, cat suit, tanooki suit, metal Mario, wing Mario, bee, ghost, hammer bros suit, etc. A LOT of powerups are missing and it kinda limits your options to the simpler power ups

2. vertical levels. All the levels are going to the right, there's no going up or down or left, etc. some of the most fun levels in Mario games are the ones that offer vertical traversal and not having them sucks!

both of these complaints will probably get fixed with DLC but for now they are a bit annoying.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

Haven't played it and I don't understand it, it's like people buying for all the ingredients of a full course meal at the price of the meal itself, wouldn't it better just buy a game by people who actually know how to design one? Or atleast buy it for a smaller price?

Except that said ingredients are able to be used over and over without having to re-buy said ingredients so you're getting a possibly near-infinite combination for the price of one meal, to use your analogy. And adding the recipies others can come up with (if I'm correct) you also can consume other folks' creativity.
So in essence its Little Big Planet but with Nintendo stuff. May not appeal to you, but there's a market for that kind of stuff as evidenced by LBP's success and its not a one use item. The amiibo thing is probably the most annoying problem caused by Nintendo, but thats a different debate altogether.