So that whole "female main characters don't sell" bullshit

[MrFalconfly]

Snip

You're giving them a little too much credit. It was a stupid comment made by stupid people. Gaming executives aren't exactly well known for nuance.

Maybe, however, just because they're stupid doesn't give you carte blanche to be stupid.

Personally I take "Female characters don't sell", as meaning "Main characters whose only special qualifier is their gender doesn't sell", because of cause they don't. If you set out making a character whose only reason for existing is "being a female main character in a shooter" then that isn't really a compelling character.

'

Ok, I'm going to have to ask where the heck you drew that conclusion from, because every time this has been brought up by devs that have had problems getting their games with female characters published, it was painted as a more "boys don't want to buy games with girls in them," way, and "your character has nothing to her except the fact that she's a girl." Seriously, I don't follow your train of logic here.

And kindly don't call me stupid.

I drew that conclusion from people complaining about "female main characters" amongst the playerbase, not necessarily the publishers (because there are people in that group too who sometimes "complain" about female characters, and say that they don't "sell well").

Regarding the devs and the publishers.

They usually only react to hard, cold numbers.

If game A sells better than game B, and the only appreciable difference between them are the gender of main character, then of cause they're bloody going to conclude that a certain gender wont sell.

For example, let's compare Horizon: Zero Dawn, the current Playstation exclusive, to Uncharted: Drake's Fortune, the previous Playstation exclusive.

Uncharted sold 4.93 million copies globally.

Horizon sold 2.55 million copies globally.

If you just look at numbers (like I suspect the publishers are), it's easy to conclude that "female main characters don't sell". Whether that's a fair assessment is an entirely different issue.

EDIT:
Also, I generally don't assume people are stupid.

But if they act stupid (even just for comedic effect), or they do stupid things (like suggesting "giving too much credit", to try and stifle discussion), I'm going to call them stupid.

You do realize you're compared the lifetime sales of a very old game to the two week sales of a brand new game right? How is that a fair comparison? Also you said only appreciative difference. There's a hell of a lot more difference between Uncharted and Hirizon than the gender of the character

Oh l'm not respecting the opinions of out of touch executives. I'm soooooooo stupid. Don't patronize me.

Yes I do.

Also, I'm not comparing those numbers. The Publishers are. Big difference. I'm just explaining how the conclusion is made from their point of view.

As for your last quip.

If you don't respect the opinions of, as you call them, "out of touch executives", they're sure as shit not gonna respect yours.

Don't expect to get any levelheaded discourse, if you aren't even willing to actually put yourself in their seat, and see through their eyes. I don't expect you to agree, only to understand their methods.

Through that understanding, it becomes much easier to get them to change their minds.

EDIT:
Honestly, I have no dog in this fight.

I just want to play good games. I have no interest in what gender my character has, as long as the gameplay is tight, the character is likeable, and the story is good.

I just want to help you achieve your goal (getting publishers to realise that female characters WILL sell), and the way you're doing it here, ain't it.

 

[sXeth]

The problem is, and Jim Sterling made this mistake to, those games didn't sell well. He compared Zero Dawn to Bioshock infinite, which outsold it nearly 3-1.

Statistically speaking those games did not outsell male-lead games. Now that's a shame, because both those games are fun, but facts is facts.
I mean hell RE6 outsold RE7 nearly 6-1! That's how it goes!

Did he remember to adjust for the Playstation only sales in the comparison? Cause Bioshock Infinite was on 3x the platforms as Zero Dawn (possibly 5 if you count the Bioshock Collection).

(I think Nier was PS exclusive too, I could be mistaken)

I don't know. He just made the point Elizabeth should have been on the cover, and the sales probably suffered as a result compared to Zero Dawn.
And I think I even told him Infinite outsold Zero Dawn 6-1

Well, doing some research. Infinite had shipped 4 million in its first quarter(3 months). 64% on 360. 31 % on PS3. 5% on PC.
PS4 is probably the bigger base this generation around, so taking that big share, 64% of 4 million is 2.56 million.
As of March (which is two months before the same 3 month period), Horizon ZD had sold 2.6 million.


So once you factor in the console exclusive nature, its actually outsold Infinite. So far, anyways.

Whether putting Elizabeth on the cover of Infinite has anything to do with anything is probably anyones guess. It'd still be a boring generic cover compared to Bioshock the original (which would prettymuch be par for the course with the boring generic game contained inside compared to Bioshock).

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

You're giving them a little too much credit. It was a stupid comment made by stupid people. Gaming executives aren't exactly well known for nuance.

Maybe, however, just because they're stupid doesn't give you carte blanche to be stupid.

Personally I take "Female characters don't sell", as meaning "Main characters whose only special qualifier is their gender doesn't sell", because of cause they don't. If you set out making a character whose only reason for existing is "being a female main character in a shooter" then that isn't really a compelling character.

'

Ok, I'm going to have to ask where the heck you drew that conclusion from, because every time this has been brought up by devs that have had problems getting their games with female characters published, it was painted as a more "boys don't want to buy games with girls in them," way, and "your character has nothing to her except the fact that she's a girl." Seriously, I don't follow your train of logic here.

And kindly don't call me stupid.

I drew that conclusion from people complaining about "female main characters" amongst the playerbase, not necessarily the publishers (because there are people in that group too who sometimes "complain" about female characters, and say that they don't "sell well").

Regarding the devs and the publishers.

They usually only react to hard, cold numbers.

If game A sells better than game B, and the only appreciable difference between them are the gender of main character, then of cause they're bloody going to conclude that a certain gender wont sell.

For example, let's compare Horizon: Zero Dawn, the current Playstation exclusive, to Uncharted: Drake's Fortune, the previous Playstation exclusive.

Uncharted sold 4.93 million copies globally.

Horizon sold 2.55 million copies globally.

If you just look at numbers (like I suspect the publishers are), it's easy to conclude that "female main characters don't sell". Whether that's a fair assessment is an entirely different issue.

EDIT:
Also, I generally don't assume people are stupid.

But if they act stupid (even just for comedic effect), or they do stupid things (like suggesting "giving too much credit", to try and stifle discussion), I'm going to call them stupid.

You do realize you're compared the lifetime sales of a very old game to the two week sales of a brand new game right? How is that a fair comparison? Also you said only appreciative difference. There's a hell of a lot more difference between Uncharted and Hirizon than the gender of the character

Oh l'm not respecting the opinions of out of touch executives. I'm soooooooo stupid. Don't patronize me.

Yes I do.

Also, I'm not comparing those numbers. The Publishers are. Big difference. I'm just explaining how the conclusion is made from their point of view.

As for your last quip.

If you don't respect the opinions of, as you call them, "out of touch executives", they're sure as shit not gonna respect yours.

Don't expect to get any levelheaded discourse, if you aren't even willing to actually put yourself in their seat, and see through their eyes. I don't expect you to agree, only to understand their methods.

Through that understanding, it becomes much easier to get them to change their minds.

EDIT:
Honestly, I have no dog in this fight.

I just want to play good games. I have no interest in what gender my character has, as long as the gameplay is tight, the character is likeable, and the story is good.

I just want to help you achieve your goal (getting publishers to realise that female characters WILL sell), and the way you're doing it here, ain't it.

Ok. You say you don't respect my opinion because I think they're stuck I'd. Then you'd say they'd do something that even I that even i think isn't cutting them enough slack. So...you say I need to understand their views and not dismiss them as out of touch, then claim that they would do something so short sighted and stupid that even I wouldn't criticize them of doing? I just...don't know what you're trying to say.

Respect is earned, not given. After all the damage they've done to my favorite medium, they've far from earned it.

 

[MrFalconfly]

Snip

You're giving them a little too much credit. It was a stupid comment made by stupid people. Gaming executives aren't exactly well known for nuance.

Maybe, however, just because they're stupid doesn't give you carte blanche to be stupid.

Personally I take "Female characters don't sell", as meaning "Main characters whose only special qualifier is their gender doesn't sell", because of cause they don't. If you set out making a character whose only reason for existing is "being a female main character in a shooter" then that isn't really a compelling character.

'

Ok, I'm going to have to ask where the heck you drew that conclusion from, because every time this has been brought up by devs that have had problems getting their games with female characters published, it was painted as a more "boys don't want to buy games with girls in them," way, and "your character has nothing to her except the fact that she's a girl." Seriously, I don't follow your train of logic here.

And kindly don't call me stupid.

I drew that conclusion from people complaining about "female main characters" amongst the playerbase, not necessarily the publishers (because there are people in that group too who sometimes "complain" about female characters, and say that they don't "sell well").

Regarding the devs and the publishers.

They usually only react to hard, cold numbers.

If game A sells better than game B, and the only appreciable difference between them are the gender of main character, then of cause they're bloody going to conclude that a certain gender wont sell.

For example, let's compare Horizon: Zero Dawn, the current Playstation exclusive, to Uncharted: Drake's Fortune, the previous Playstation exclusive.

Uncharted sold 4.93 million copies globally.

Horizon sold 2.55 million copies globally.

If you just look at numbers (like I suspect the publishers are), it's easy to conclude that "female main characters don't sell". Whether that's a fair assessment is an entirely different issue.

EDIT:
Also, I generally don't assume people are stupid.

But if they act stupid (even just for comedic effect), or they do stupid things (like suggesting "giving too much credit", to try and stifle discussion), I'm going to call them stupid.

You do realize you're compared the lifetime sales of a very old game to the two week sales of a brand new game right? How is that a fair comparison? Also you said only appreciative difference. There's a hell of a lot more difference between Uncharted and Hirizon than the gender of the character

Oh l'm not respecting the opinions of out of touch executives. I'm soooooooo stupid. Don't patronize me.

Yes I do.

Also, I'm not comparing those numbers. The Publishers are. Big difference. I'm just explaining how the conclusion is made from their point of view.

As for your last quip.

If you don't respect the opinions of, as you call them, "out of touch executives", they're sure as shit not gonna respect yours.

Don't expect to get any levelheaded discourse, if you aren't even willing to actually put yourself in their seat, and see through their eyes. I don't expect you to agree, only to understand their methods.

Through that understanding, it becomes much easier to get them to change their minds.

EDIT:
Honestly, I have no dog in this fight.

I just want to play good games. I have no interest in what gender my character has, as long as the gameplay is tight, the character is likeable, and the story is good.

I just want to help you achieve your goal (getting publishers to realise that female characters WILL sell), and the way you're doing it here, ain't it.

Ok. You say you don't respect my opinion because I think they're stuck. Then you'd say they'd do something that even i think isn't cutting them enough slack. So...you say I need to understand their views and not dismiss them as out of touch, then claim that they would do something so short sighted and stupid that even I wouldn't criticize them of doing? I just...don't know what you're trying to say.

Respect is earned, not given. After all the damage they've done to my favorite medium, they've far from earned it.

I tried to fix a few of what I assumed was mobile auto-correct induced spelling errors (please correct them, if I was wrong).

Let's go through them, point by point.

1) You say you don't respect my opinion because I think they're stuck.

I said, "Maybe, however, just because they're stupid doesn't give you carte blanche to be stupid.".

That isn't "not respecting your opinion". That's rejecting a straw man, because I don't think one side behaving badly gives the other side carte blanch to follow suit.

2) Then you'd say they'd do something that even i think isn't cutting them enough slack.

Not sure of what you're talking about here. Can you give an example?

3) So...you say I need to understand their views and not dismiss them as out of touch, then claim that they would do something so short sighted and stupid that even I wouldn't criticize them of doing?

Yes, I did say you should understand their reasoning (not their views, their reasoning). I however never made a claim that they'd do anything (at the most, I've made observations of their actions).

4) I just...don't know what you're trying to say.

Easy.

Before you label someone as "out of touch" anythings, analyse the situation from their point of view, possibly with their reasoning, and then erect a counterpoint using their reasoning.

"Respect is earned, not given. After all the damage they've done to my favorite medium, they've far from earned it."

The issue is, you aren't giving them any reason to listen to you.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Yeah, auto-correct typo. Meant to say stupid. And you've yet to convince me that I'm stupid.

You basically said that they would use the information of Horizon selling 2.6 million copies even though it's just out and, even as I type out those words, those numbers are out of date. I think they're stupid and even I know they'd put in more research than that.

You'd said that they'll compare a game that has been out for years with a game that has been out for nowhere near as long.

Ok, I took a look at things from their point of view. They're out of touch. Assuming that they think this. After all, this is me calling back to something that happened a few years ago. The idea that women can't sell copies is something that has no real basis in reality, due to how well Horizon is selling. I mean its pretty much made its budget back already, who knows how much it'll make in the long run.

They already have a reason to listen to me. They want my money. Haven't exactly bought an Ubisoft game in awhile. The one exception was Rainbow Six Siege. And guess what that had in it? Playable ladies.

 

[MeatMachine]

I'm probably going to regret this buuuuuut....

I don't think I've ever heard anyone in real life make that argument. It always seems like it's your "Racist Uncle" argument (you know, the "Black people have smaller brains than white people! It's not racist, it's science!!!!") that no one actually says as a real argument.

At best, it feels like a self-fulfilling prophecy by game makers (like how horror games were a dead genre) that they just kind of decided on at some point.

I'm on team "if the game is good, I will buy it" myself. I never had any problems playing a black man in Telltale's Walking Dead, a woman in Tomb Raider, or a badass space marine in Doom, even though I am none of those things in real life...

I'm in total agreement.

I think there is an element of truth to the "games with female protagonists" don't sell well, but I don't think they don't sell well BECAUSE they have a female protagonists. It's more that these games aren't part of a long-established, familiar franchise, or other such reasons.

I think that, at most, games with non-customizable female protagonists don't MARKET as well in advertisements. Advertising is largely appealing to the subconscious, which is why I think its more appealing to the hardcore gaming target audience to have a male protagonist in the promotional material - even if barely anyone actually outwardly cares about the gender of their avatar.

 

[Nazulu]

I don't know anyone who wouldn't buy a game just because it has a female lead and I can't imagine there are many out there. Who said this? I've heard it before and I never found out who brought it up. And is there any REAL research for this topic?

I'm not joining any witch hunt though. If there is a legit reason I would actually be interested to know. I'd imagine games with male leads would have sold more because there are just more of them in more well known franchises that aren't niche at all. So maybe over time if these games get sequels that are persistent in quality then we can make a more accurate assessment then.

 

[burnout02urza]

For what's it worth, I bought Nier Automata mostly because I wanted to put my penis into 2B, and you can destroy her skirt with the self-destruct module.

Horizon: Zero Dawn? Stronk womyn protagonist who don't need no man? No way in hell I'm buying that.

If I'm not buying a game for fetishistic value, I'm not going to buy a game with a female protagonist. I simply relate to male characters more. I mean, it's not like anyone bought Xtreme Beach Volleyball 3 or Senran Kagura for the strong female protagonists, they bought them because they were cock-pleasers.

If you want games with female leads to sell, make them sexy. It's what Lara Croft coasted on for most of her series, after all. If she looked like Nadine from Uncharted, Eidos would've closed after the first game.

 

[CritialGaming]

Then every single game made aside from COD doesn't sell well. Seriously, name five series that pull in those kinds of numbers on each installment

Everything Blizzard makes.

Every WoW Expansion
Overwatch
Diablo 3
Starcraft

Non-Blizzard:
Battlefield
Grand Theft Auto

Anyway OT, I think that the female lead thing is a fucking cop out. Of course Female led games don't sell as well, but it's because they aren't pillars of the gaming industry levels of games. Look at any of the big sells games. Halo, GTA, COD, they aren't selling billions because it's raining men, they sell well because they are established and good (mostly). Not to mention they all have a persistent gameplay loop.

Name me one female-led game that has infinite progression. The biggest selling games in the industry right now all have an endless online component. It's what makes these games so big. COD fans can get 1 game very year and play it endlessly until next year's version comes out. That's how it works. And you have to remember that 99% of the gaming player base doesn't have it's ear to the ground when it comes to new games coming out. Most people buy 1 or 2 games a YEAR, and play them until the wheels fall off or a sequel comes out.

 

[elvor0]

I am black and usually don't mind what race/gender the characters is just as long as the game is good. But even if the game is good, a character can be written horribly. That is why I do not like CJ from San Andreas or Nilin from Remember Me. Though San Andreas I did not like gameplay wise in general. I do appreciate if the character is the same race as me and well written. The same applies if the character is a different gender or race from me.

Just out of curiosity, what did you find horribly written about CJ? I thought he was alright...don't know if I'd call him "likeable" at the end of the day, dude does some pretty horrific things by the end, but he always tried to do the right thing, (for a GTA protagonist) and I don't /remember/ any glaring issues with the way his character was written but then it has been some time. Or was he just a little too stereotypical, given the gangbanger motif?

 

[BrawlMan]

Just out of curiosity, what did you find horribly written about CJ? I thought he was alright...don't know if I'd call him "likeable" at the end of the day, dude does some pretty horrific things by the end, but he always tried to do the right thing, (for a GTA protagonist) and I don't /remember/ any glaring issues with the way his character was written but then it has been some time. Or was he just a little too stereotypical, given the gangbanger motif?

Partially the gangbanger motif, but it was this weird dissonance. CJ claimed to be doing the right things "fer da hood", but obviously by the half way point, this is not the case, and is in it mainly for the money and power. The narration does not seem to acklowledge this, and we'r supposed to root him, when is defintely not much better than his enemies by that point. Say what you will about Claude or Tommy, but at least the motives were mostly clear and consistent and acknowledge. Claude wanted revenge, and Tommy wanted money, and then revenge.

I appreciate the shout-outs for Boyz n Da Hood, Menace II Society (you'll never see me watch that again), Juice, and New Jersey Drive that Rockstar did, but overall San Andreas and CJ did not do it for me. Funny enough, Frank from GTAV is what CJ should have been.

 

[9tailedflame]

I don't think "people" think that, i think the horrifying soulless blob that is the gaming industries focus-test-loving analyst teams think that based on a very ill-conceived and senseless attempt to pander to everyone at once.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

As much as I'd like to believe that you're right, I'm not sure there's nearly enough here to do so.

I think the step to assuming near industry-wide ignorance and/or incompetence is a pretty big one. I can't shake the feeling that maybe people who do this for a living might know a thing or two, and that I might not.

Something that I could muster up given slithers of information in isolation and the "it doesn't matter to my friends" kind of anecdotal evidence would probably be lacking in any real value.

Spoiler

 

[DocJ]

All to do with the writing. And that extends to TV and movies as well. If you write a bad character, male or female it's not gonna be fun. Especially if it's a main character.

 

[Fappy]

Honestly, I don't think it's really worth complaining about one way or another, not anymore. At this point most western developers are aware that female leads won't make any significant impact on sales, and many of them have embraced the demand for female PCs/protagonists. We're getting more female leads per year than ever before, and I don't see that trend slowing down.

Japanese devs are another issue entirely, but we honestly don't have much sway there. Most only really care about the Japanese demographic as far as appeal goes, and very few devs have an ear to the ground regarding feedback from the west.

 

[MerlinCross]

snip

Oh hey took a bit to see this. Sorry.

And you're right there are other conclusions. And the big one is that female leads don't sell. Let us only cater to teenage-college males that like twitchy shooters. We'll make money that way.

The above is how I see some CEOs or those in charge of funding saying or thinking. There's too many factors, some which you brought up, to simply say that Remember Me sold badly due to X reason. But the whole 'females don't sell' is a self fulling idea as long as the test groups are CoD kiddies or Frat boys. Or even just guys that go "no girls allowed" or some bs. Because we know they exist.

Likewise there's a number of factors as to why the named games in the OP sold. I myself haven't played either game but one factor I would suggest is that it's due to them being Sandbox games. It's the new Platformer/Shooter. Even the 'meh' ones tend to sell well these days and it's the game type that hack devs also try to sell to. These days it seems hard not to make some cash back on a Sandbox game.

 

[t850terminator]

I hear there was a time when people used to pop the champagne when 200k copies were sold.
Nowadays, 3 million is considered "disappointing".

 

[votemarvel]

I tend to prefer playing as a female character in RPGs when the option is offered. As a male character I usually end up making the choices I would make in that situation. PLaying as a female makes me think on how they'd be reacting in that situation.

What I would like to see is more differences between male and female characters. There's a line in Angry Joe's review of Mass Effect 3 where he states he would have liked to have seen more differences between male and female Shepard, in order to give guys more incentive to play through as FemShep. I couldn't agree more.

We've talked about Tomb Raider. With them you could drop Nathan Drake into the adventure and it'd play out the exact same way. You could drop Lara into Uncharted (with less quipping and more moaning) would have the same game.

In short. Create different experiences when playing as a male or female character.