I don't think "people" think that, i think the horrifying soulless blob that is the gaming industries focus-test-loving analyst teams think that based on a very ill-conceived and senseless attempt to pander to everyone at once.
So that whole "female main characters don't sell" bullshit
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As much as I'd like to believe that you're right, I'm not sure there's nearly enough here to do so.
I think the step to assuming near industry-wide ignorance and/or incompetence is a pretty big one. I can't shake the feeling that maybe people who do this for a living might know a thing or two, and that I might not.
Something that I could muster up given slithers of information in isolation and the "it doesn't matter to my friends" kind of anecdotal evidence would probably be lacking in any real value.
I think the step to assuming near industry-wide ignorance and/or incompetence is a pretty big one. I can't shake the feeling that maybe people who do this for a living might know a thing or two, and that I might not.
Something that I could muster up given slithers of information in isolation and the "it doesn't matter to my friends" kind of anecdotal evidence would probably be lacking in any real value.
Honestly, I don't think it's really worth complaining about one way or another, not anymore. At this point most western developers are aware that female leads won't make any significant impact on sales, and many of them have embraced the demand for female PCs/protagonists. We're getting more female leads per year than ever before, and I don't see that trend slowing down.
Japanese devs are another issue entirely, but we honestly don't have much sway there. Most only really care about the Japanese demographic as far as appeal goes, and very few devs have an ear to the ground regarding feedback from the west.
Japanese devs are another issue entirely, but we honestly don't have much sway there. Most only really care about the Japanese demographic as far as appeal goes, and very few devs have an ear to the ground regarding feedback from the west.
Oh hey took a bit to see this. Sorry.Bedinsis said:
And you're right there are other conclusions. And the big one is that female leads don't sell. Let us only cater to teenage-college males that like twitchy shooters. We'll make money that way.
The above is how I see some CEOs or those in charge of funding saying or thinking. There's too many factors, some which you brought up, to simply say that Remember Me sold badly due to X reason. But the whole 'females don't sell' is a self fulling idea as long as the test groups are CoD kiddies or Frat boys. Or even just guys that go "no girls allowed" or some bs. Because we know they exist.
Likewise there's a number of factors as to why the named games in the OP sold. I myself haven't played either game but one factor I would suggest is that it's due to them being Sandbox games. It's the new Platformer/Shooter. Even the 'meh' ones tend to sell well these days and it's the game type that hack devs also try to sell to. These days it seems hard not to make some cash back on a Sandbox game.
I hear there was a time when people used to pop the champagne when 200k copies were sold.
Nowadays, 3 million is considered "disappointing".
Nowadays, 3 million is considered "disappointing".
I tend to prefer playing as a female character in RPGs when the option is offered. As a male character I usually end up making the choices I would make in that situation. PLaying as a female makes me think on how they'd be reacting in that situation.
What I would like to see is more differences between male and female characters. There's a line in Angry Joe's review of Mass Effect 3 where he states he would have liked to have seen more differences between male and female Shepard, in order to give guys more incentive to play through as FemShep. I couldn't agree more.
We've talked about Tomb Raider. With them you could drop Nathan Drake into the adventure and it'd play out the exact same way. You could drop Lara into Uncharted (with less quipping and more moaning) would have the same game.
In short. Create different experiences when playing as a male or female character.
What I would like to see is more differences between male and female characters. There's a line in Angry Joe's review of Mass Effect 3 where he states he would have liked to have seen more differences between male and female Shepard, in order to give guys more incentive to play through as FemShep. I couldn't agree more.
We've talked about Tomb Raider. With them you could drop Nathan Drake into the adventure and it'd play out the exact same way. You could drop Lara into Uncharted (with less quipping and more moaning) would have the same game.
In short. Create different experiences when playing as a male or female character.
Smacks of a massive strawman argument. Lara Croft has sold well for decades. People are not saying in real life that female leads don't sell. Just shittily written female leads.
You got jade from Beyond Good and Evil, Lara Croft, Bayonetta, Samus and a bunch more I can't think of.
The trolls and alt right types don't count as they are just being cunts for the sake of being cunts.
You got jade from Beyond Good and Evil, Lara Croft, Bayonetta, Samus and a bunch more I can't think of.
The trolls and alt right types don't count as they are just being cunts for the sake of being cunts.
Yeah like to be real this thread was nailed on the front page.Saelune said:
It's just marketing that assumes Grizzled White Male when Brown hair will sell better BECAUSE of that character template, but they're playing themselves, cause if all the good games happen to have that character preset then of course all the sales will indicate that.
I play so much good stuff with female protagonists and there's heaps of great games.
I hate that discussions like this exist, not because I think it's a dumb conversation to have, but because I find it stupid that there probably are some people that won't buy a game cause "i'm not playing as a girl LOL, FUK DAT SHIT".
Let's be fair though- has anything ever really needed a reboot before getting one anyway?Ezekiel said:
I don't know what else to say other than agreeing with you, Erttheking. Some people are either stupid in decision-making, focusing too much on what will make the most money for them, or both. :/
Main character genders, I would say, are not a super significant part of whether a game sells. And I doubt anyone would say "there can be a near perfect video game that plays really well, but if it has a female main character it's GOING TO TANK". No one has said that.
Yet the OP seems to go on that argument, and there's a term for that, which is strawmanning.
But strawmen aside, it's mostly the genre, marketing and reception that decide whether a game sells or not. Going for female or male main character nowadays, from a publisher standpoint, relies on current trends and group psychology. Consumers tend to get bored of the same stuff all the time: if the mainstream games of the last 2 years have all had male main characters, a female MC can make some difference in sales due to being a "novel" concept. Otherwise, male MCs cater most to the action video game demographic.
I don't agree with this. I would rather give full liberty of expression to the designers' vision, but it's the reality we live in. You sign up under a publisher, you expect them to focus on the science of getting money and making your customers happy. Not all of them, but most of them. Those who fall under the group of people who are most likely to buy your game.
There are great games with female characters. Sometimes a developer will push for a specific gender on their MC despite the publisher's wishes, and sometimes the publisher will agree in order to give the impression they care. The reality is games are made based on the prediction of what the audience will want when the game comes out, which means if a lot of games predict the same thing the audience will be flooded and saturated with similar titles and themes. This can cause a cycle where the new quickly becomes old, and what was old is new again.
Yet the OP seems to go on that argument, and there's a term for that, which is strawmanning.
But strawmen aside, it's mostly the genre, marketing and reception that decide whether a game sells or not. Going for female or male main character nowadays, from a publisher standpoint, relies on current trends and group psychology. Consumers tend to get bored of the same stuff all the time: if the mainstream games of the last 2 years have all had male main characters, a female MC can make some difference in sales due to being a "novel" concept. Otherwise, male MCs cater most to the action video game demographic.
I don't agree with this. I would rather give full liberty of expression to the designers' vision, but it's the reality we live in. You sign up under a publisher, you expect them to focus on the science of getting money and making your customers happy. Not all of them, but most of them. Those who fall under the group of people who are most likely to buy your game.
There are great games with female characters. Sometimes a developer will push for a specific gender on their MC despite the publisher's wishes, and sometimes the publisher will agree in order to give the impression they care. The reality is games are made based on the prediction of what the audience will want when the game comes out, which means if a lot of games predict the same thing the audience will be flooded and saturated with similar titles and themes. This can cause a cycle where the new quickly becomes old, and what was old is new again.
Horizon is not a really good example. As a famous reviewer here once said, (paraphrasing) fanboys will buy anything as long as it's an exclusive.
And a couple hits don't take away the fact that the best selling games of all time have male protagonists (or female protagonists with ridiculous proportions). Now that the PC police is at full force, they put every color of the skin/gender/sexual preference as side characters to avoid bad press, but I doubt they'll go beyond that.
And why would it matter anyway? Just give me a good story and the chance to curb stomp dudes, and I'm a happy man, even if I'm using a furry as PC.
And a couple hits don't take away the fact that the best selling games of all time have male protagonists (or female protagonists with ridiculous proportions). Now that the PC police is at full force, they put every color of the skin/gender/sexual preference as side characters to avoid bad press, but I doubt they'll go beyond that.
And why would it matter anyway? Just give me a good story and the chance to curb stomp dudes, and I'm a happy man, even if I'm using a furry as PC.
It's a hold over from the eighties actually. WHere it was actually fairly true. I suppose it goes back to the gaming demographic at the time. You saw a product with boxart that prominently featured a girl it was likely a product meant for girls. and in Vid games, them pattern continued., Look at the nesw library and pick out the games with boxart prominently featureing a female character.
Hello again, sorry for the interruption, but I think my spirited language may have brought on the wrath of the mods.
I'll try to bring it down a peg or two.
Kinda. They'll probably use current sales figures, together with time on the market to project an estimated final sales figure, which they then compare to a confirmed final sales figure of a prior product.
What I said was, just saying to them that they're "out of touch" doesn't really help you promoting your own side, or get them to see the merits of your side.
You don't have to convince me. I'm already on board. You need to convince them.
They don't necessarily want to trade two of their current buyers, for one of you. This is where your skills in argumentation comes in, because you (and I) need to get them to see that, there's a way where they can get us on board without loosing any of their current buyers.
I'll try to bring it down a peg or two.
I don't want to convince you that you're stupid. Far from it. If anything I only wanted to help you not doing yourself a disservice. You seem like a nice person.erttheking said:
And yes, I am saying that, to paraphrase, and while there's probably more variables in the equation than just looking at current numbers, and adjusting projections, that is a method that is consistent with their conclusions in the past. I'm not saying that what they're doing is correct (far from it), I'm only describing their analytical methods (in general terms).erttheking said:
erttheking said:
Kinda. They'll probably use current sales figures, together with time on the market to project an estimated final sales figure, which they then compare to a confirmed final sales figure of a prior product.
Never said they necessarily weren't "out of touch".erttheking said:
What I said was, just saying to them that they're "out of touch" doesn't really help you promoting your own side, or get them to see the merits of your side.
You don't have to convince me. I'm already on board. You need to convince them.
Yeah, they want you money, but not at the cost of other people's money.erttheking said:
They don't necessarily want to trade two of their current buyers, for one of you. This is where your skills in argumentation comes in, because you (and I) need to get them to see that, there's a way where they can get us on board without loosing any of their current buyers.
I'm going to wait to see sales in a few months for this game before I make an assessment of this game's success. If things are still sitting at around 3 million, then the game has performed extremely mediocre, especially for a PS4 exclusive that was hyped up so much.
I don't have a problem with female protagonists, but I don't like this sudden push for "feminism" in video games. Most AAA gamers are men, so it seems pretty futile that these gaming companies are trying to reach a demographic that doesn't exist.
I don't have a problem with female protagonists, but I don't like this sudden push for "feminism" in video games. Most AAA gamers are men, so it seems pretty futile that these gaming companies are trying to reach a demographic that doesn't exist.
Whole idea that main character's gender is key factor for game's sales is absurd.
Reeks of morons from marketing getting report from data analysts where in one place is mentioned that main character and identification whith main character's struggles and motives were important part of enjoyment and engagement to customers. Then in another piece of study where customers were asked which characters they'd identify with from presented, majority picked males.
Finally drawing conclusion that majority of their customers being male, who pointed it was important for them to get a good grip on character motives and who pointed toward male characters as ones they can identify with means that... they don't want female protagonists...
Reeks of morons from marketing getting report from data analysts where in one place is mentioned that main character and identification whith main character's struggles and motives were important part of enjoyment and engagement to customers. Then in another piece of study where customers were asked which characters they'd identify with from presented, majority picked males.
Finally drawing conclusion that majority of their customers being male, who pointed it was important for them to get a good grip on character motives and who pointed toward male characters as ones they can identify with means that... they don't want female protagonists...