So that whole "female main characters don't sell" bullshit

[KissingSunlight]

I tend to prefer playing as a female character in RPGs when the option is offered. As a male character I usually end up making the choices I would make in that situation. PLaying as a female makes me think on how they'd be reacting in that situation.

What I would like to see is more differences between male and female characters. There's a line in Angry Joe's review of Mass Effect 3 where he states he would have liked to have seen more differences between male and female Shepard, in order to give guys more incentive to play through as FemShep. I couldn't agree more.

We've talked about Tomb Raider. With them you could drop Nathan Drake into the adventure and it'd play out the exact same way. You could drop Lara into Uncharted (with less quipping and more moaning) would have the same game.

In short. Create different experiences when playing as a male or female character.

I disagree. The problem I see with people complaining about female characters. It's that they want their own specific version of how a woman should act. No character can be all things to all people. Most people play the game to play the game. They want to guide their avatar, male or female, through the game. There shouldn't be different challenges or story, because of the gender of their character. After all, isn't that what equality is all about? Not being discriminatory to people because of their gender, race, etc.

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

I actually kinda prefer female characters in games. I'm not entirely sure why. I'm sure that there are many reasons for that. I don't always do it. In Mass Effect I played with default male Shepard and in Dragon Age Origins I played first time with a male human and only on subsequent playthroughs I tried a female character. But most of the time I just go with the female character. It's more interesting.

 

[votemarvel]

I disagree. The problem I see with people complaining about female characters. It's that they want their own specific version of how a woman should act. No character can be all things to all people. Most people play the game to play the game. They want to guide their avatar, male or female, through the game. There shouldn't be different challenges or story, because of the gender of their character. After all, isn't that what equality is all about? Not being discriminatory to people because of their gender, race, etc.

Yet denying that people are different isn't equality either.

Playing as Axel in Streets of Rage II provides a different experience to playing as Blaze, or Max, or Skate. There is a reason to play through as these different characters because you can't play the game in the exact same way.

Play Mass Effect 2 however and the gameplay is the same whether you pick male or female Shepard, you don't have to vary your play style at all. Once you've picked your choice of Shepard there is little reason to go back through as the other.

Play Left 4 Dead and what is the difference between playing as Zoey or Bill? There is no game play difference at all.

I admit my point is simply related to game where you have a choice of character, to me that choice becomes worthless if the game plays the same no matter who you pick.

 

[KissingSunlight]

I disagree. The problem I see with people complaining about female characters. It's that they want their own specific version of how a woman should act. No character can be all things to all people. Most people play the game to play the game. They want to guide their avatar, male or female, through the game. There shouldn't be different challenges or story, because of the gender of their character. After all, isn't that what equality is all about? Not being discriminatory to people because of their gender, race, etc.

Yet denying that people are different isn't equality either.

Playing as Axel in Streets of Rage II provides a different experience to playing as Blaze, or Max, or Skate. There is a reason to play through as these different characters because you can't play the game in the exact same way.

Play Mass Effect 2 however and the gameplay is the same whether you pick male or female Shepard, you don't have to vary your play style at all. Once you've picked your choice of Shepard there is little reason to go back through as the other.

Play Left 4 Dead and what is the difference between playing as Zoey or Bill? There is no game play difference at all.

I admit my point is simply related to game where you have a choice of character, to me that choice becomes worthless if the game plays the same no matter who you pick.

I think we are closer to being in agreement.

If we are talking about different characters, then there should be some differences between them.

If we are talking about the same character, and you can choose the gender of the character that your playing. Then there shouldn't be a difference in the gameplay or story.

 

[votemarvel]

I think we are closer to being in agreement.

If we are talking about different characters, then there should be some differences between them.

If we are talking about the same character, and you can choose the gender of the character that your playing. Then there shouldn't be a difference in the gameplay or story.

Where Mass Effect really comes alive for me is in the unique dialogue, such as Harkin referring to female Shepard as Princess.

I would have liked to have seen that extended to the other areas of the gameplay. Just to pick on Biotics, since I tend to play as an Adept. Perhaps have male Shepard's powers be harder hitting but female Shepard having faster cooldown times.

Just something as simple as that would vary up the combat gameplay, while still allowing the story events to play out in the same way for both incarnations of Shepard.

 

[hermes]

It is mostly a self fulfilling prophesy.

One marketing team is consulted by a mayor publisher, and they conduct a focus test. They seem to find a pattern, and the publisher develops their games based on that pattern. Many AAA games (the ones that are used for the metric of "don't sell") are built over committees, and marketing stats have more importance than personal taste of the people involved. If the game is a success, it reinforces the pattern. If the game is a failure, it must have been because of other factors (because no one is better at dodging the blame for bad decisions like executives)... so a pattern that was once "found" is never rebuked.

I am not saying there are not people that get turned off by the idea of playing a woman, because there are, mostly in the range of teenagers and juvenile manchilds (which gets balanced by other manchilds wanting to play as a woman to "see a woman's ass in third person"), but that the pattern is very outdated and has never really been challenged (because one example doesn't disprove a pattern).

 

[KissingSunlight]

I think we are closer to being in agreement.

If we are talking about different characters, then there should be some differences between them.

If we are talking about the same character, and you can choose the gender of the character that your playing. Then there shouldn't be a difference in the gameplay or story.

Where Mass Effect really comes alive for me is in the unique dialogue, such as Harkin referring to female Shepard as Princess.

I would have liked to have seen that extended to the other areas of the gameplay. Just to pick on Biotics, since I tend to play as an Adept. Perhaps have male Shepard's powers be harder hitting but female Shepard having faster cooldown times.

Just something as simple as that would vary up the combat gameplay, while still allowing the story events to play out in the same way for both incarnations of Shepard.

Would it be controversial if you assign different abilities to male and female, when they are suppose to be the same character? I can easily see people accusing the game developers of being sexist for not allowing the female Shepard to hit as hard as the male Shepard.

 

[ZeD [taken 0]]

I think we are closer to being in agreement.

If we are talking about different characters, then there should be some differences between them.

If we are talking about the same character, and you can choose the gender of the character that your playing. Then there shouldn't be a difference in the gameplay or story.

Where Mass Effect really comes alive for me is in the unique dialogue, such as Harkin referring to female Shepard as Princess.

I would have liked to have seen that extended to the other areas of the gameplay. Just to pick on Biotics, since I tend to play as an Adept. Perhaps have male Shepard's powers be harder hitting but female Shepard having faster cooldown times.

Just something as simple as that would vary up the combat gameplay, while still allowing the story events to play out in the same way for both incarnations of Shepard.

Would it be controversial if you assign different abilities to male and female, when they are suppose to be the same character? I can easily see people accusing the game developers of being sexist for not allowing the female Shepard to hit as hard as the male Shepard.

Well, in a universe with exoskeletons and muscle enhancements, they could very well be equal.

 

[PurplePonyArcade]

Wait. So people dumb enough to think that gender dictates sales actually exist? Wow. This world looks worse every day.

 

[Zacharious-khan]

That whole true 'bullshit'?

And the reason is, games with female main characters don't sell, good games do.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Wait. So people dumb enough to think that gender dictates sales actually exist? Wow. This world looks worse every day.

A lot of execs, unfortunately.

Which leads to the self-fulfilling prophecy of said games getting less support, particularly in marketing, which leads to said games not selling as well, which reinforces the narrative.

New Tomb Raider and Horizen got marketable really well, and sold great numbers.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

I'm going to wait to see sales in a few months for this game before I make an assessment of this game's success. If things are still sitting at around 3 million, then the game has performed extremely mediocre, especially for a PS4 exclusive that was hyped up so much.

I don't have a problem with female protagonists, but I don't like this sudden push for "feminism" in video games. Most AAA gamers are men, so it seems pretty futile that these gaming companies are trying to reach a demographic that doesn't exist.

According to Microsoft's internal numbers, 42% of XBOX One's players are women. The demographic is decidedly there.

 

[votemarvel]

Where Mass Effect really comes alive for me is in the unique dialogue, such as Harkin referring to female Shepard as Princess.

I would have liked to have seen that extended to the other areas of the gameplay. Just to pick on Biotics, since I tend to play as an Adept. Perhaps have male Shepard's powers be harder hitting but female Shepard having faster cooldown times.

Just something as simple as that would vary up the combat gameplay, while still allowing the story events to play out in the same way for both incarnations of Shepard.

Would it be controversial if you assign different abilities to male and female, when they are suppose to be the same character? I can easily see people accusing the game developers of being sexist for not allowing the female Shepard to hit as hard as the male Shepard.

I'll take a chance on replying now this won't be buried under a flood of spam.

I don't doubt that people would jump up and down crying sexism if the powers of the two Shepards were varied as I described. Yet I'd also be willing to bet that those same people wouldn't want male and female athletes competing against each other in sporting events, there they'd accept that men and women are different. After all the top male boxer is going to have more hitting power than the top female one.

Well, in a universe with exoskeletons and muscle enhancements, they could very well be equal.

It's possible to be sure but it is important to remember that the Illusive Man wanted Shepard brought back as close as possible. Any Enhancements would be absolutely minimal for both versions.

Then again would femShep getting 'better' enhancements set people off about sexism that she required extra help to reach the same level.

I don't think I'm ever going to be able to navigate this minefield.

 

[KissingSunlight]

I don't think I'm ever going to be able to navigate this minefield.

I understand what you are trying to say. The difference is reality vs. fantasy of a videogame. In reality, men and women do not have the same physical strength. I do not believe that reality should be reflected in videogames when we are talking about playing the same character. I won't mind if the physical differences are reflected in two different playable characters that are man and woman.

 

[dscross]

I'm not sure where the OP got this idea - I don't think gamers care whether the main characters are male or female. There are some massive franchises in video games with female protagonists that sell well and have done for a long time - characters like Lara Croft prove that. It really depends on the content and/or story and whether it makes sense in context

But the simple fact is a lot of these games are going to be male dominated due to the content of these games. War games and crime orientated stories are going to be heavily male dominated, so watering that down by putting random characters in just to tick a box would make no sense. I think the diversity problem is not going to be solved by shoehorning in a token woman or minority into a game where they may not fit, it will be helped by developers producing a wider array of games in new genres.

I feel like the writing for games is still stuck in a massive rut and this is the problem. Most storylines are the equivalent of watching the fast and the furious franchise after downing a few crates of red bull. You will see the same stereotypical female and minority characters in those films as you will most games, but nobody is calling for that film's producers to diversify, because it'd make no sense to their audience.

I'm convinced there are stories to be told through gaming that will include and appeal to all of society, not just white men. However I don't think demanding vague changes without any specific solutions other than to include women and minorities helps the situation. Bunching everyone apart from white men into a massive category and saying "let's invite these lot to the party too" is an offensive way of dealing with this problem. The only way it will be solved is if the people concerned about this write these games, produce interesting characters from different backgrounds grounded in reality, and give us a reason to want to play as them.

 

[Erttheking]

I don't doubt that people would jump up and down crying sexism if the powers of the two Shepards were varied as I described.

*Looks at Dishonored 2*

*Looks at Emily and Corvo having very different abilities*

*Notes the lack of cries of sexism in that game*

I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion. Then again, Dishonored managed to come up with better ways to give the two leads different powers, with radically different abilities. It's more interesting than "men hit harder but women move faster." Which is honestly damn boring and cliche by this point. Seriously, Robert A. Heinlein was writing sci-fi that used this elements back in 1959, it's been done. Heck it doesn't even really make sense with biotics, since biotics have nothing to do with muscle mass. If anything, they bypass it.

Also your point about FemShep needing "better" enhancements just feels...odd. As in, we're in a universe where there are blue telepathic space babes that can get pregnant by having sex with any sentient species, humans get space magic by being exposed to dangerous elements while In Utero, and human beings are melted down by the millions to be made into a giant Terminator baby, but we need to point out that women need better enhancements than men? And even then, what's the point of feeling the need to point out in Mass Effect 2? Not only does it feel kind of pointless considering it doesn't really add anything, but in ME1 both Shepards were able to do equally well, so I fail to see how one getting better enhancements is necessary. I mean, what does it add?

 

[Erttheking]

I'm not sure where the OP got this idea - I don't think gamers care whether the main characters are male or female. There are some massive franchises in video games with female protagonists that sell well and have done for a long time - characters like Lara Croft prove that. It really depends on the content and/or story and whether it makes sense in context

Not what I was talking about in the slightest, was referring to how publishers seem to keep thinking female characters don't sell, see the Life Is Strange, Remember Me and The Last of Us debacles.

 

[dscross]

I'm not sure where the OP got this idea - I don't think gamers care whether the main characters are male or female. There are some massive franchises in video games with female protagonists that sell well and have done for a long time - characters like Lara Croft prove that. It really depends on the content and/or story and whether it makes sense in context

Not what I was talking about in the slightest, was referring to how publishers seem to keep thinking female characters don't sell, see the Life Is Strange, Remember Me and The Last of Us debacles.

That's what I was referring to. Sorry, my poor opening paragraph meant that wasn't communicated properly. I'd reword - I think publishers know that gamers don't care whether the main characters are male or female. The rest of my post follows on. Better?

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

...so watering that down by putting random characters in just to tick a box would make no sense. I think the diversity problem is not going to be solved by shoehorning in a token woman or minority into a game where they may not fit, it will be helped by developers producing a wider array of games in new genres.

Or you could try, you know... writing characters. You don't need a new genre just for the black folks.

As always, white dudes are assumed, everyone else needs to be justified.

 

[dscross]

...so watering that down by putting random characters in just to tick a box would make no sense. I think the diversity problem is not going to be solved by shoehorning in a token woman or minority into a game where they may not fit, it will be helped by developers producing a wider array of games in new genres.

Or you could try, you know... writing characters. You don't need a new genre just for the black folks.

My quote taken out of context becomes something it was not intended as. If you read the bottom of my post it does say exactly what you said in a different way. I was saying it would be good to write characters and plots to suit them in the correct context without shoehorning them into situations that they wouldn't be in in real life.