So what ISN'T allowed in video games now?

[Carpenter]

Killing children. Quite looking forward to the day we progress enough so that children being killed doesn't make a game unclassifiable.

Better start looking backwards since it's already happened.

Broken record time, the fact that people usually choose not to do something doesn't mean it's banned.

Can I get an example of a game were the player can kill a normal child. Not a monstrous child or anything, just a child that's not an enemy.

I just did a few posts above. I don't expect you to read every post, I just want to point it out because I am already in "broken record" ground here.

Deus ex 1 and 2

House of the dead 2

I know there are a few others but I honestly can't think of them for the life of me. I have heard the original FO games allowed it too but since those were strategy games I doubt they were very violent.

Normal human children that you can shoot. In Deus ex there wasn't even a concequence for it.

 

[scienceguy8]

I'm fairly certain that there would be an uproar if a game depicted something like the Holocaust. Even if it was done in a respectful and serious way. I can't recall any game that even really mentions those kinds of atrocities openly. I could be wrong though.

Sorry if someone has already mentioned this, but while not the Holocaust, Homefront did have a scene in which the player has to fight through a mass grave dug in a baseball field, then hide among the bodies to avoid the enemy. Not the same, I realize, but close.

 

[nathan-dts]

Killing children. Quite looking forward to the day we progress enough so that children being killed doesn't make a game unclassifiable.

Better start looking backwards since it's already happened.

Broken record time, the fact that people usually choose not to do something doesn't mean it's banned.

Can I get an example of a game were the player can kill a normal child. Not a monstrous child or anything, just a child that's not an enemy.

I just did a few posts above. I don't expect you to read every post, I just want to point it out because I am already in "broken record" ground here.

Deus ex 1 and 2

House of the dead 2

I know there are a few others but I honestly can't think of them for the life of me. I have heard the original FO games allowed it too but since those were strategy games I doubt they were very violent.

Normal human children that you can shoot. In Deus ex there wasn't even a concequence for it.

Thanks for the information. It just seems like a taboo subject and a lot of games seem to avoid it for fear of the media and ratings boards.

 

[Carpenter]

Killing children. Quite looking forward to the day we progress enough so that children being killed doesn't make a game unclassifiable.

Better start looking backwards since it's already happened.

Broken record time, the fact that people usually choose not to do something doesn't mean it's banned.

Can I get an example of a game were the player can kill a normal child. Not a monstrous child or anything, just a child that's not an enemy.

I just did a few posts above. I don't expect you to read every post, I just want to point it out because I am already in "broken record" ground here.

Deus ex 1 and 2

House of the dead 2

I know there are a few others but I honestly can't think of them for the life of me. I have heard the original FO games allowed it too but since those were strategy games I doubt they were very violent.

Normal human children that you can shoot. In Deus ex there wasn't even a concequence for it.

Thanks for the information. It just seems like a taboo subject and a lot of games seem to avoid it for fear of the media and ratings boards.

seriously? No offense, but you seriously believe the only reason they don't have more child murder in games is fear of "media" and ratings boards? Why? Haven't you considered the question of "why" rather than jumping right too "why not?"

GTA seems to consistently get negative media attention but they haven't quit because it sells and the media attention is bassically free advertising.

You may want to consider the possibility that game devs are not cowering in fear at the thought of a judemental talk show host or "ratings boards" and btw Deus ex 1 and 2 were rated by the ESRB so it's not that ratings boards have taken some hardline stance on this. As I said before they seem more touchy when it comes to more realistic themes.


At the end of the day it's probably not done often because most game devs (and I would hope gamers) don't see much point in simulated child murder.

We take for granted how much freedom the medium has. Hitman is pretty much a serial killer fantasy simulator but they just make the story about a hired killer so it doesn't seem so dark that it turns too many people away, probably the same reason they make most of the targets very evil individuals. I can only think of one thing on TV that depicts the life of a serial killer in a positive way and even in that show the killing of an innocent is treated as a huge deal (funny considering "Dexter" was supposed to be an uncaring sociopath) yet hitman let's you have a lot of fun playing a jason vorhees style stealth slasher.

Not complaining, I think it's a fantastic thing, I just wish more gamers would apreciate it instead of asssuming or pretending the medium is so unfairly treated.

 

[nathan-dts]

Killing children. Quite looking forward to the day we progress enough so that children being killed doesn't make a game unclassifiable.

Better start looking backwards since it's already happened.

Broken record time, the fact that people usually choose not to do something doesn't mean it's banned.

Can I get an example of a game were the player can kill a normal child. Not a monstrous child or anything, just a child that's not an enemy.

I just did a few posts above. I don't expect you to read every post, I just want to point it out because I am already in "broken record" ground here.

Deus ex 1 and 2

House of the dead 2

I know there are a few others but I honestly can't think of them for the life of me. I have heard the original FO games allowed it too but since those were strategy games I doubt they were very violent.

Normal human children that you can shoot. In Deus ex there wasn't even a concequence for it.

Thanks for the information. It just seems like a taboo subject and a lot of games seem to avoid it for fear of the media and ratings boards.

seriously? No offense, but you seriously believe the only reason they don't have more child murder in games is fear of "media" and ratings boards? Why? Haven't you considered the question of "why" rather than jumping right too "why not?"

GTA seems to consistently get negative media attention but they haven't quit because it sells and the media attention is bassically free advertising.

You may want to consider the possibility that game devs are not cowering in fear at the thought of a judemental talk show host or "ratings boards" and btw Deus ex 1 and 2 were rated by the ESRB so it's not that ratings boards have taken some hardline stance on this. As I said before they seem more touchy when it comes to more realistic themes.


At the end of the day it's probably not done often because most game devs (and I would hope gamers) don't see much point in simulated child murder.

We take for granted how much freedom the medium has. Hitman is pretty much a serial killer fantasy simulator but they just make the story about a hired killer so it doesn't seem so dark that it turns too many people away, probably the same reason they make most of the targets very evil individuals. I can only think of one thing on TV that depicts the life of a serial killer in a positive way and even in that show the killing of an innocent is treated as a huge deal (funny considering "Dexter" was supposed to be an uncaring sociopath) yet hitman let's you have a lot of fun playing a jason vorhees style stealth slasher.

Not complaining, I think it's a fantastic thing, I just wish more gamers would apreciate it instead of asssuming or pretending the medium is so unfairly treated.

If you can kill innocents in a game like Fable or Fallout then why not children? I just don't see the difference.

 

[Carpenter]

Killing children. Quite looking forward to the day we progress enough so that children being killed doesn't make a game unclassifiable.

Better start looking backwards since it's already happened.

Broken record time, the fact that people usually choose not to do something doesn't mean it's banned.

Can I get an example of a game were the player can kill a normal child. Not a monstrous child or anything, just a child that's not an enemy.

I just did a few posts above. I don't expect you to read every post, I just want to point it out because I am already in "broken record" ground here.

Deus ex 1 and 2

House of the dead 2

I know there are a few others but I honestly can't think of them for the life of me. I have heard the original FO games allowed it too but since those were strategy games I doubt they were very violent.

Normal human children that you can shoot. In Deus ex there wasn't even a concequence for it.

Thanks for the information. It just seems like a taboo subject and a lot of games seem to avoid it for fear of the media and ratings boards.

seriously? No offense, but you seriously believe the only reason they don't have more child murder in games is fear of "media" and ratings boards? Why? Haven't you considered the question of "why" rather than jumping right too "why not?"

GTA seems to consistently get negative media attention but they haven't quit because it sells and the media attention is bassically free advertising.

You may want to consider the possibility that game devs are not cowering in fear at the thought of a judemental talk show host or "ratings boards" and btw Deus ex 1 and 2 were rated by the ESRB so it's not that ratings boards have taken some hardline stance on this. As I said before they seem more touchy when it comes to more realistic themes.


At the end of the day it's probably not done often because most game devs (and I would hope gamers) don't see much point in simulated child murder.

We take for granted how much freedom the medium has. Hitman is pretty much a serial killer fantasy simulator but they just make the story about a hired killer so it doesn't seem so dark that it turns too many people away, probably the same reason they make most of the targets very evil individuals. I can only think of one thing on TV that depicts the life of a serial killer in a positive way and even in that show the killing of an innocent is treated as a huge deal (funny considering "Dexter" was supposed to be an uncaring sociopath) yet hitman let's you have a lot of fun playing a jason vorhees style stealth slasher.

Not complaining, I think it's a fantastic thing, I just wish more gamers would apreciate it instead of asssuming or pretending the medium is so unfairly treated.

If you can kill innocents in a game like Fable or Fallout then why not children? I just don't see the difference.

You can kill children in certain games as I have already explained. The "why" is personal. A dev is not obligated to simulate ever single sadistic fantasy, they are simply trying to create something.

On that note, saying there is no difference between a child and an adult is just silly. Children are helpless and innocent. It's already legal to hit a child but not a full grown adult, must we realy make it required for every violent game to include child murder?

The adults can still defend themselves or run, a child is mostly helpless which just makes it seem tasteless and sadistic. They are also more innocent than an adult but I won't argue this too much since people like to argue well known things just for the sake of it and I find it pointless.

I really don't understand your question though. Again you ask why we "can't" do it in games after I name specific games where you can. It seems you are asking why all violent games do not allow this and the reason is the same that not all violent games feature cordless drills, not all games are going to be the same. Personal preference of the devs is what drives it.

Again you ask why not but you ignore the question of "why" for whatever reason.

 

[xPrometheusx]

Suppose I should explain myself. Damn you escapist, posting during time where I can't actually reply properly!

First and foremost, let me explain what I always saw as the Halo/GoW controversy. Maybe halo was a personal one, but Halo was the game that made the community parent associate gaming with the devil. It wasn't Goldeneye that did it, it was Halo. Why this is, I have no idea, but the fact of the matter is, Halo was considered the violent...est of the violent when it came out.

GoW, from what I remember, was surrounded by a giant cloud of shit when it came out because people were disgusted by it. The chainsaw executions and the giant amounts of gore were something unseen by a lot of people, and it got a lot of heat for it. Again, maybe that was a localized event. But I remember without a doubt in my mind that both of these games put video games as completely off limits to a lot of people.

Second, in regards to censorship: I flat out disagree that a line shouldn't be drawn. The first time I played Dead Space 2, I was completely and totally disturbed by the child and infant necromorphs. Not because they were scary, but because of the social taboo that was being broken. It STILL feels wrong to me, as it should. Not to lecture, but if you're going to kill an adult... fine. I can't defend the ethics or morality of it by any case, but death and war have always existed in our culture. When your literally working a way through a day-care slaughtering the inhabitants, however, thats fucking wrong.

Third, about 'playing the terrorist...' you totally don't make your way through an airport slaughtering hundreds of security guards, cops and civillians in MW2. That totally isn't wrong or problematic in any way. Just saying. It's already been done. Why MOH got so much flak for it is beyond me. Maybe it's because they were American troops that you were killing. If it had been RUSSIANS (see above) it would've been fine(?) Further to that, it's not the holocaust but it sure as hell looks like it. All you're missing is the swastikas and maybe some discrimination. Hell, you have to dig out of a mass grave in Far Cry 3 in first person. If that's not breaking that barrier, I don't know what is.

There really isn't a line left, is my point grand point I think. Or if it is, there isn't much left behind it. What else is left to see in video games besides something that belongs on the adult section in Newgrounds?

 

[saintdane05]

I'm fairly certain that there would be an uproar if a game depicted something like the Holocaust. Even if it was done in a respectful and serious way. I can't recall any game that even really mentions those kinds of atrocities openly. I could be wrong though.

I remember there was some Educational game about it for the DS.

 

[Strelok]

~SNIP~

Why did you feel the need to post two threads saying the same thing?

 

[xPrometheusx]

~SNIP~

Why did you feel the need to post two threads saying the same thing?

I'd be more than willing to address this question if you'd be so kind as to tell me where, exactly, I did so.

 

[triggrhappy94]

I was going to post something. But then I remembered Postal 2.
I think that's about it.
There was the rejected Child killer icon in Fallout 2. If you haven't seen it before, check it out. It's an interesting bit of gaming controversy history. I'd post it here, but it is pretty offensive.

I think you're still not allowed to kill children (at least in more modern games), because that'll get you banded in some countries. But, I think they can still dying.

And when did a kid die in Modern Warfare?

 

[hazabaza1]

A snip from the very heavens itself

You can kill kids in Fallout 1+2. Got a perk for it too!

 

[OneOfTheMichael's]

The only thing I can think of would be the extent of distrubing shit that you would find only on the internet.
Besides things such as, hardcore sex, rape, and kid killing.

 

[Strelok]

~SNIP~

Why did you feel the need to post two threads saying the same thing?

I'd be more than willing to address this question if you'd be so kind as to tell me where, exactly, I did so.

Sure,since you don't seem to be able to view your own posts. See below posted 3 minutes apart:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.406127-Where-is-the-line-drawn-nowadays#16891863

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.406125-So-what-ISNT-allowed-in-video-games-now#16891856

 

[xPrometheusx]

what, wait... what? Look, I posted 3 times, to my awareness. This was due to a 404 error on my part. Essentially, every time I posted it took me to a 404 page instead of displaying the thread I'd posted, leading me to assume that the thread hadn't actually been created, since the forum overviews only update every 5 minutes or so for me and I had no evidence to the contrary. I THOUGHT I'd deleted said posts, or at least, asked for them to be ignored, as I'd made an error E.G. I found two others and summarily removed all worthy content on them. Maybe I missed a couple? In which case... my bad, I guess...?

 

[MrHide-Patten]

Can't kill kids... then the modders wouldn't have anything to do. On that note you can't have full frontal nudity (not unless massive censors). But sex has had the bar risen as well, using Mass Effect as the example, I'd been playing the Mass Effect series on my PS3 so I hadn't seen this sex scene that got Fox in a tizzy, but the one from Mass Effect 3 with Liara is really... visceral.

So by the time I got to play through Mass Effect I expect something Hardcore. Nope. Im surprised Fox didn't explode after Mass Effect 3.

*sigh* again stop saying you "can't" depict things just because it's not often done.

Deus ex 1 and 2 let you kill kids as well as House of the dead 2 although you lost a life for doing it (no it was not a zombie kid) and there are a few others as well.

Just speaking on part of Austrlian Censorship guidelines, can't have kid killing in games.

 

[HHammond]

Playing as Nazis or Al-Queda. God forbid people play a game from an opposing point of view...

Day of Defeat and Resistance and Liberation are both games where you can play as the Wermacht, but it's true that there's no campaign or anything. The way I see it it's just two sides of a war so I don't see the problem. So long as you weren't playing like a concentration camp officer(or to use your Al Qaeda example, a suicide bomber) it'd probably be fine.

While it would never, ever happen, I think a case could be made for an interesting game told from the point of view of a concentration camp officer or soldier and use it as a tool to investigate the dehumanising effects of "working" in that sort of environment and about the tactics the Nazis used to persuade soldiers to commit such horrendous acts. It would be difficult to do, and if done wrong could be horribly, horribly offensive, but if done right perhaps interesting. However, even if it was done the press would tear it apart and to be honest I doubt many people, myself included, would be able to stomach it but then again a lot of great art films, books, theatre etc. explores similarly dark themes.

I guess the line is there, for now. Maybe one day video games will be allowed to tackle the same sort of subjects as films and books but not yet.

 

[Carpenter]

I was going to post something. But then I remembered Postal 2.
I think that's about it.
There was the rejected Child killer icon in Fallout 2. If you haven't seen it before, check it out. It's an interesting bit of gaming controversy history. I'd post it here, but it is pretty offensive.

I think you're still not allowed to kill children (at least in more modern games), because that'll get you banded in some countries. But, I think they can still dying.

And when did a kid die in Modern Warfare?

MW3 but it was just a cheap little attempt to "shock" people while not really showing too much.

No, you CAN show it in modern games. Yes it will get you banned in some countries, many popular modern games are banned in some countries, it's not the big sales killer that some companies try to make it seem.

Again, you can show it, it's just not usually done for the same reason rape and realistic gore isn't often done in games, people seem to think it's in bad taste.

It doesn't mean it's not allowed though. Fear 2 (as several have pointed out) has you getting raped in first person, of course it didn't seem to offend anyone. No need to wonder why, just look at how angry people got when there was just implication that villians were thinking of raping Lora Croft. It's only ok when it happens to a man. Again, it's about social norms and what a majority of people are comfortable with, it's not that they "can't" do it.

 

[Carpenter]

Can't kill kids... then the modders wouldn't have anything to do. On that note you can't have full frontal nudity (not unless massive censors). But sex has had the bar risen as well, using Mass Effect as the example, I'd been playing the Mass Effect series on my PS3 so I hadn't seen this sex scene that got Fox in a tizzy, but the one from Mass Effect 3 with Liara is really... visceral.

So by the time I got to play through Mass Effect I expect something Hardcore. Nope. Im surprised Fox didn't explode after Mass Effect 3.

*sigh* again stop saying you "can't" depict things just because it's not often done.

Deus ex 1 and 2 let you kill kids as well as House of the dead 2 although you lost a life for doing it (no it was not a zombie kid) and there are a few others as well.

Just speaking on part of Austrlian Censorship guidelines, can't have kid killing in games.

No you can have it in games, you just wouldn't be able to sell it legally in australia.

It's still something you are able to put in a game and even then people in Australia can probably get their hands on it somehow.

There's also (at least if I remember correctly) some strict rules on the portrayal of drugs and prostitution but that leads to region censorship more often than it leads to them taking it out of every version of the game. Just look at grand theft auto.

 

[Carpenter]

Playing as Nazis or Al-Queda. God forbid people play a game from an opposing point of view...

Day of Defeat and Resistance and Liberation are both games where you can play as the Wermacht, but it's true that there's no campaign or anything. The way I see it it's just two sides of a war so I don't see the problem. So long as you weren't playing like a concentration camp officer(or to use your Al Qaeda example, a suicide bomber) it'd probably be fine.

While it would never, ever happen, I think a case could be made for an interesting game told from the point of view of a concentration camp officer or soldier and use it as a tool to investigate the dehumanising effects of "working" in that sort of environment and about the tactics the Nazis used to persuade soldiers to commit such horrendous acts. It would be difficult to do, and if done wrong could be horribly, horribly offensive, but if done right perhaps interesting. However, even if it was done the press would tear it apart and to be honest I doubt many people, myself included, would be able to stomach it but then again a lot of great art films, books, theatre etc. explores similarly dark themes.

I guess the line is there, for now. Maybe one day video games will be allowed to tackle the same sort of subjects as films and books but not yet.

Good god you people persist.

Yes maybe one day you will be "allowed" since surely the evil police state is the only reason you don't have "super concentration camp RPG" and not for the simple reason that nobody has had the motivation, funding, or guts to do so. I agree, it could be interesting, it would also be sold for money and making a profit off of the holocaust is usually frowned upon, even with movies and books except when it's a survivor (or maybe even a nazi) telling their real story.

The media doesn't "tear them to shreds" they talk about stuff. Did Fox news "tear to shreds" mass effect? If you think so, look at the games sales figures. Even one of the anchors was saying he will have to buy it now. It was advertising, not the evil media bullying your games.

Not trying to seem rude but can we please think about things before claiming we are not "allowed" these things in games?