So what's anime like these days?

[NPC009]

This is kind of what I meant. Otaku stuff isn't all that relevant in Gate, it's more about dragons vs tanks and the whole fantasy refugee situation so even if the protagonist "is an otaku" as we're told, it doesn't really come up enough to make it be a focal point of the story.

But it is relevant in Gate. The world on the other side is very much a place you might find in any JRPG and the main character isn't the only one who sees this. One of the other characters is actually very excited when he finds out cat girls actually exist. And when it comes to fantasies like that, they often end up playing out like the characters imagined them.

Not to mention (again), those fantasy girls orbiting around the main character like a bunch of trope-y moons...

Subaru actually expected to have super powers when he first came into the fantasy world and he often breaks the fourth wall talking about this or that so in his case, he stumbled because he was treating the fantasy wold like a game. In Gate you just have a modern military fighting fantasy beings and every now and then there will be some random joke. You didn't have the protagonist thinking he's a hero or expecting to use magic, he just acted like a normal soldier like everyone else did. Even if we know he is an otaku, he doesn't really behave in a way which makes this be wish fulfillment, unless we want to say that otaku just wish to be riajuus deep inside, which I don't think this show is going for lol.

Basically, the protagonist doesn't really feel like a stereotypical otaku, he's just a normal dude who likes anime and manga and stuff, and he also has other aspects to him, like a real person. I think that's way more interesting than just a caricature of a hardore fan. I don't see this as wish fulfillment that is specifically tied to otaku and not to just any random dude, especially not in the same way SAO is aimed at gamers. There's a much greater degree of separation between his otakuness and his being skilled at other tasks. Usually, shows aimed at glorifying otaku traits do so by making your amazing otaku skills be the key to solving the problems plaguing this world. Gate doesn't do that, his otaku skills just let him I guess not be as amazed by fantasy races and be more at ease conversing with them than average, nothing all that significant ever comes out of his being an otaku. His military training is what ends up mattering.

You're kinda failing at anime here...

Look, more often than not, the main character of an otaku show is an ordinary otaku who turns out to be extra-ordinary (or at the very least a chick magnet). He doesn't look special and doesn't care about being special, hence his often humble attitude, but he turns out to be awesome at what he does anyway. While in some cases that is thanks to his otakuness, it's usually a secondary (actual!) skillset or a special power that makes the difference. In a way, it's just an evolution of the common harem manga protagonist.

Gate's main character fits that description perfectly. And just to be clear: he was not an ordinary soldier. He's in the special forces, something he didn't even specifically aim for. He got there by just sort of consistantly doing the minimum.

Subaru subverts the trope, because he expects to be that kind of protagonist. But, he can't act like it and his special power is only useful when he DIES. Aside from the reboot button he's on his own and we see him screw up again and again.

Finally, only one of them was 900 years old, the elf girl was only 180ish and the mage girl was actually 15 lol.

If you want to discuss trope-y anime, it really helps to know your tropes [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReallySevenHundredYearsOld]. Also, how does mage girl being only 15 make anything any better?!

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

But it is relevant in Gate. The world on the other side is very much a place you might find in any JRPG and the main character isn't the only one who sees this. One of the other characters is actually very excited when he finds out cat girls actually exist. And when it comes to fantasies like that, they often end up playing out like the characters imagined them.

Not to mention (again), those fantasy girls orbiting around the main character like a bunch of trope-y moons...

See, that guy, the cat girl fan, jeep driver guy, he is more of what you'd find as a tropey otaku character. And I never said there's no such elements, just that they're not really what the story is about. They're a seasoning rather than a main ingredient, they don't really affect much or go anywhere. You know that guy from Gintama who has a mayo fetish? Otaku traits are the mayo in Gate.

You're kinda failing at anime here...

Look, more often than not, the main character of an otaku show is an ordinary otaku who turns out to be extra-ordinary (or at the very least a chick magnet). He doesn't look special and doesn't care about being special, hence his often humble attitude, but he turns out to be awesome at what he does anyway. While in some cases that is thanks to his otakuness, it's usually a secondary (actual!) skillset or a special power that makes the difference. In a way, it's just an evolution of the common harem manga protagonist.

Gate's main character fits that description perfectly. And just to be clear: he was not an ordinary soldier. He's in the special forces, something he didn't even specifically aim for. He got there by just sort of consistantly doing the minimum.

Subaru subverts the trope, because he expects to be that kind of protagonist. But, he can't act like it and his special power is only useful when he DIES. Aside from the reboot button he's on his own and we see him screw up again and again.

I'm drawing a distinction here. These chars you describe, their primary trait is "is otaku", and then they also have this or that other talent or skill or amazing component.

That's not Youji from Gate. His primary trait is "is kindhearted, lazy soldier". His actions and behaviors are evidence of this. If not, he wouldn't have volunteered to go to the other side of the gate when he didn't need to. He felt a sense of duty and his nature was to go, it had nothing to do with his being an otaku and it even caused his divorce. I don't think that you can say his being a kindhearted soldier is only secondary to the character. That being so, even if the show explains that he's an otaku, it can't help but be again, a small aspect of the character. Seasoning rather than main ingredient.

His attitude of trying to be an underachiever such that he can get the most out of his hobby is also a much more realistic and accurate depiction of an "actual" otaku, so the lack of overly tropey elements that not many people would identify with (or any, even, in some cases) helps make an actual character out of the protagonist.


Ultimately, I know very well the archetype you describe, and I know the type of fun to be had by experiencing such a story. Because I know that, I can be confident in that this isn't that. The entertainment in Gate doesn't stem from the badass actions of the protagonist which lets you have a power fantasy or this or that. It's more about the premise and the world. It might try to have it's cake and eat it too by introducing all these elements, but at worst I'd call it just pandering to otaku on the side as lip service while also telling a really gripping story, as opposed to a full-fledged parade in their favor in the vein of Oreimo or The world God only knows.

The elements you point out are all there but they are so subdued that most of the time, I didn't even feel their effect in the story at all.

If you want to discuss trope-y anime, it really helps to know your tropes [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReallySevenHundredYearsOld]. Also, how does mage girl being only 15 make anything any better?!

I don't visit that site, I don't like the memefications of a lot of these things and people who throw around terms from that site often seem to not understand them (not saying you don't, just past experiences have shown me that XD). But yeah, the elf girl looks grown up and it's common for elves to be that old even in western stuff, the 967 year old girl is clearly a self-aware character since her name is Rori (and she was amazing btw, probably the best char in the show) and the mage girl is 15 which I don't get what's not fine about. It's not like she has sex with the protagonist, she seems to just have a crush and even if she did I come from a country where 15 is the age of consent so that's not at all weird for me, but that's a whole other can of worms I guess lol.

Now, if you wanna call the police over someone, it'd have to be that noble girl who fell for the diplomat, she is worth being outraged over. Maybe you feel Gate is like SAO because her and Silica share a voice actress, ever think of that!? XD

 

[NPC009]

But it is relevant in Gate. The world on the other side is very much a place you might find in any JRPG and the main character isn't the only one who sees this. One of the other characters is actually very excited when he finds out cat girls actually exist. And when it comes to fantasies like that, they often end up playing out like the characters imagined them.

Not to mention (again), those fantasy girls orbiting around the main character like a bunch of trope-y moons...

See, that guy, the cat girl fan, jeep driver guy, he is more of what you'd find as a tropey otaku character. And I never said there's no such elements, just that they're not really what the story is about. They're a seasoning rather than a main ingredient, they don't really affect much or go anywhere. You know that guy from Gintama who has a mayo fetish? Otaku traits are the mayo in Gate.

This is more than seasoning. This is a world made out of mayo. The mayo is very much part of the premise.

If anything, the politics are reduced to seasoning at times.

I'm drawing a distinction here. These chars you describe, their primary trait is "is otaku", and then they also have this or that other talent or skill or amazing component.

That's not Youji from Gate. His primary trait is "is kindhearted, lazy soldier". His actions and behaviors are evidence of this. If not, he wouldn't have volunteered to go to the other side of the gate when he didn't need to. He felt a sense of duty and his nature was to go, it had nothing to do with his being an otaku and it even caused his divorce. I don't think that you can say his being a kindhearted soldier is only secondary to the character. That being so, even if the show explains that he's an otaku, it can't help but be again, a small aspect of the character. Seasoning rather than main ingredient.

His attitude of trying to be an underachiever such that he can get the most out of his hobby is also a much more realistic and accurate depiction of an "actual" otaku, so the lack of overly tropey elements that not many people would identify with (or any, even, in some cases) helps make an actual character out of the protagonist.

I think you've stepped into a trap without noticing. Youji is very much a common special anime snowflake. He might act like an underachiever but all the evidence points in another direction. Again, this is not some random private, he has a good rank (and actually gains some more throughout the anime) and he continues to achieve amazing things during the shows' run.

Ultimately, I know very well the archetype you describe, and I know the type of fun to be had by experiencing such a story. Because I know that, I can be confident in that this isn't that. The entertainment in Gate doesn't stem from the badass actions of the protagonist which lets you have a power fantasy or this or that. It's more about the premise and the world. It might try to have it's cake and eat it too by introducing all these elements, but at worst I'd call it just pandering to otaku on the side as lip service while also telling a really gripping story, as opposed to a full-fledged parade in their favor in the vein of Oreimo or The world God only knows.

The elements you point out are all there but they are so subdued that most of the time, I didn't even feel their effect in the story at all.

Subdued?! There are literal bunny warriors. Sexy ones. Sexy bunny warriors. There is nothing subdued about it! Not to mention Youji's entourage, which includes a killer lolita, an underage mage and a sexy blonde elf girl who at one point slept in the same bed as him. And while some characters point out this is like totally out of a videogame, it's played straight most of the time.

But then again, you've shown in the past you're a fan of 'she breathes through her skin' justifications, so I can see how you'd either skim over this or not notice it at all, because you have no intention to ever be critical of these aspects.

I don't visit that site, I don't like the memefications of a lot of these things and people who throw around terms from that site often seem to not understand them (not saying you don't, just past experiences have shown me that XD). But yeah, the elf girl looks grown up and it's common for elves to be that old even in western stuff, the 967 year old girl is clearly a self-aware character since her name is Rori (and she was amazing btw, probably the best char in the show) and the mage girl is 15 which I don't get what's not fine about. It's not like she has sex with the protagonist, she seems to just have a crush and even if she did I come from a country where 15 is the age of consent so that's not at all weird for me, but that's a whole other can of worms I guess lol.

Self-aware would mean actually acknowledge lolita tropes beyond 'she dresses like a lolita'. It might have made a difference if the killer lolita was something new, but it isn't. gate plays it very safe, rarely going beyond a reference or 'joke'. Like naming the lolita girl Rori.

And again, dude, the age of the mage girl does not make it better! She's fifteen, protagonist dude is in this early thirties. (Fictional) legality aside, the age difference should raise some questions. And yes, while she does not attempt to have sex with him, she does sort of consider him sort of her fiance. You know why writers write stuff like that? Because it lets readers/viewers justify fantasies without having to technically cross any lines themselves. Nice and safe otaku fantasy fodder.

Now, if you wanna call the police over someone, it'd have to be that noble girl who fell for the diplomat, she is worth being outraged over. Maybe you feel Gate is like SAO because her and Silica share a voice actress, ever think of that!? XD

Actually, I think that character was done better than mage girl and whatever, because it does tie into the diplomatic issues that are part of the overarching story and is not waved of as 'loli girl falling for protagonist but nothing happens so it's all totally okay here are some hot bunny girls to look at instead (but we totally don't mind if you fantasize about her falling for a person like you. Wink. Wink)'.

I've said it before and I think I should say it again: I don't mind people fantasizing about this stuff. Go play your girl spanking game or buy some Rori dojinshi if that's what you're into. However, properly analysing fiction you consume is the smart thing to do, because manipulative writing is everywhere and there's a big difference between knowingly letting yourself be manipulated for short periods of time and blindly diving into the deep waters only to be dragged away by the currents.

 

[Story]

I have an issue with likening Gate to SAO. I think the story of war and reconciliation and refugees and all that was actually very topical and the protagonist isn't quite as much a "hero" as he is a guy trying to do his best so he can go to a convention, not at all herolike, very actual otakulike, thus relatable. You can clearly see everyone make fun of him for having all these super top tier military credentials, they all go "how is a guy like him this or that!?!?" which is I think a similar thing to how Re:zero is self aware (died at the Tsukihime maid references in that one lol) so I think Gate is actually worth watching.

I think the premise of the series, taken straight out of Stargate but with a whole lot of anime fantasy poured in, combined with the general plot themes make that series stand out and I thoroughly enjoyed it because of those elements.

The protagonist of GATE is very much a typical wish fullfilment character. Just look at this:
-He's an otaku (just like the readers/viewers! instant connection!)
-But he's also totally awesome at being a soldier and he ends up saving the day several times
-There's a small herd of young (and 'actually 700 years old') girls surrounding him

It's not similar to Re:Zero at all, because his interest in otaku stuff never actually impacts his life in a negative way (beyond being at the wrong place at the wrong time - which turned out to be for the best anyway). At worst, other characters joke about his hobbies. At best, it turns into diplomacy, because some foreign princess turns out to be a fujoshi.

Meanwhile, Subaru is pushed into a lot of painful situations, ranging from brutal deaths to ugly reminders that he is not the main character to the people around him. Scenes like the one where he desperately wants Emilia to understand he's doing it all for her hurt to watch, as they should.

Re:Zero holds up a mirror, GATE does not.

Just because the author has a boner for the JSDF and thus 'realism' doesn't mean the story is all that balanced when it comes to how the main character is presented.

If you're going to watch GATE, watch it because you want to see a modern military take on an ancient dragon. That shit is actually pretty cool.

Hate to innterject but this pretty much hit the nail on the head
I have not seen GATE, but this pretty much highlights my problem with the series I've seen so far No Game, No Life and Konsuba. While I really liked Re Zero. All of them have male protagonists with a Gary Stu self insert syndrome. They have character flaws mind you, but they are only used or comedic affect and they are never encouraged to over come them. The expectation was Re: Zero's Suburu, I turned around on the series during the episode you discribed because his preserved Gary Stu ness was actually treated with contempt with the characters around him. It was a flaw he recognized and hated but wanted to change. That made for good drama to me. I got none of that type of self reflection from No Game, No Life which was a straight power fantasy or Konosuba which was a straight comedy.
Of course it doesn't help too that I can't relate to this "otaku male who attracts all the ladies" protagonist anyway. that's not really my type of preferred escapist fantasy. Guess I'm not into this current trend right now.

 

[NPC009]

Hate to innterject but this pretty much hit the nail on the head
I have not seen GATE, but this pretty much highlights my problem with the series I've seen so far No Game, No Life and Konsuba. While I really liked Re Zero. All of them have male protagonists with a Gary Stu self insert syndrome. They have character flaws mind you, but they are only used or comedic affect and they are never encouraged to over come them. The expectation was Re: Zero's Suburu, I turned around on the series during the episode you discribed because his preserved Gary Stu ness was actually treated with contempt with the characters around him. It was a flaw he recognized and hated but wanted to change. That made for good drama to me. I got none of that type of self reflection from No Game, No Life which was a straight power fantasy or Konosuba which was a straight comedy.
Of course it doesn't help too that I can't relate to this "otaku male who attracts all the ladies" protagonist anyway. that's not really my type of preferred escapist fantasy. Guess I'm not into this current trend right now.

You're not alone.

I think one of the problems with this trend is that it's a very adolescent one, something many people grow out of at one point or another. And once you're past that point, certain limitations just become too obvious. Take romance for instance. Most of these series never go much beyond an awkward confession, if they get there at all. They're about falling in love at best, not about relationships. And once you're old enough to have some experience with relationships yourself (heck, in your mid-twenties you might already have a family of your own), it just seems irrelevant if not done well.

On top of that, this trend is very consumer oriented. These works contain many elements that are not there to serve the characters or the story but are purely there to please the consumer. And unless your fantasy happens to be pinpointed by the fanservice, it just seems like a waste of time.

That said, I do like some of the series this trend brought forth and I absolutely don't mind people enjoying this stuff. And hey, there are trends I was/am into myself. Like the current gourmet manga trend that gave us anything and everything from What did you eat yesterday? to Sweetness & Lightning to Dungeon Meshi.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

I think you've stepped into a trap without noticing. Youji is very much a common special anime snowflake. He might act like an underachiever but all the evidence points in another direction. Again, this is not some random private, he has a good rank (and actually gains some more throughout the anime) and he continues to achieve amazing things during the shows' run.

Like I said above, he is a special snowflake, just not specifically otaku-aimed. He is just your run of the mill character who is skilled at those tasks that anyone can identify with.

Subdued?! There are literal bunny warriors. Sexy ones. Sexy bunny warriors. There is nothing subdued about it! Not to mention Youji's entourage, which includes a killer lolita, an underage mage and a sexy blonde elf girl who at one point slept in the same bed as him. And while some characters point out this is like totally out of a videogame, it's played straight most of the time.

But then again, you've shown in the past you're a fan of 'she breathes through her skin' justifications, so I can see how you'd either skim over this or not notice it at all, because you have no intention to ever be critical of these aspects.

I am fighting, and losing to, the urge to ask "well if they're bunny girls how can they not be sexy" but seriously, they're not anything special. They reminded me of the Viera race from Ivalice but slightly more furry. I don't think FF stuff is particularly "otaku aimed", it's just...sexy bunny girls. Practically everyone who likes women likes them.

I am critical in seeing if I like how they go about it or not, not just purely being critical of them on a conceptual level, docking points regardless of execution. Every story element deserves fair treatment. I think my job is to try to like everything and then figure out why I didn't like the things I didn't and be critical about that. When I like something, well, I like it, it's perfect, nothing need happen. Depending on how much I like it, I will treat it accordingly. It's not that I am not critical, it's that I genuinely enjoyed everything to the max so I have nothing to take issue with. If that sounds absurd to you, well, sorry, agree to disagree .

Self-aware would mean actually acknowledge lolita tropes beyond 'she dresses like a lolita'. It might have made a difference if the killer lolita was something new, but it isn't. gate plays it very safe, rarely going beyond a reference or 'joke'. Like naming the lolita girl Rori.

And again, dude, the age of the mage girl does not make it better! She's fifteen, protagonist dude is in this early thirties. (Fictional) legality aside, the age difference should raise some questions. And yes, while she does not attempt to have sex with him, she does sort of consider him sort of her fiance. You know why writers write stuff like that? Because it lets readers/viewers justify fantasies without having to technically cross any lines themselves. Nice and safe otaku fantasy fodder.

Oh, it's definitely safe. I never said those things were original. Just well-executed.

The fiancee thing was just because they shared sleeping quarters 3 times (one of which everyone was sleeping together in a hotel), hardly of any consequence. It was just humor. I don't think anyone can get any worthwhile fantasies off of such a joking moment. I just found it cute and moved on since that scene lasted for like 20 seconds, focusing on her sister's outrageous reaction was much more gripping than whatever fantasy potential offered by the joke.

Actually, I think that character was done better than mage girl and whatever, because it does tie into the diplomatic issues that are part of the overarching story and is not waved of as 'loli girl falling for protagonist but nothing happens so it's all totally okay here are some hot bunny girls to look at instead (but we totally don't mind if you fantasize about her falling for a person like you. Wink. Wink)'.

I've said it before and I think I should say it again: I don't mind people fantasizing about this stuff. Go play your girl spanking game or buy some Rori dojinshi if that's what you're into. However, properly analysing fiction you consume is the smart thing to do, because manipulative writing is everywhere and there's a big difference between knowingly letting yourself be manipulated for short periods of time and blindly diving into the deep waters only to be dragged away by the currents.

There was literally no reason for them to actually become engaged, that seemed entirely unnecessary. It was more of a heat of the moment event (since that diplomat doesn't really strike me as a creep) and the story didn't at all need to go that way and nothing was gained by it either. I guess it was an emotional moment for the 12 year old female audience members in Japan, I can't really testify to that, but I saw no point to that story development. He could have just let her in the embassy without declaring he'd marry her lol.


Proper analysis, if only there was such a thing. I think everyone at least in their head tries to do that in one way or another. Kinda like how no evildoer thinks themselves evil. I don't think anyone can say that they do that, and you can't look at the conclusion an analysis reaches and then say "I like this conclusion, therefore the analysis was proper". In this kind of thing you just have to take a step back and accept opposing interpretations. Just claiming to be more deeply analytical of something without fully knowing what contributed in the opposing conclusion borne out of another person's analysis isn't gonna solve anything.

 

[gsilver]

I used to watch it all the time. Now, in limited quantities.

But there are still new anime that I can get genuinely excited about. Space Dandy, Jojo's Bizarre Adventure (up to part 3, anyway), Mr. Osomatsu, From the New World, Hunter X Hunter, Natsume's Book of Friends, and Kill La Kill are all from the last few years-ish and I love them to pieces.

 

[crypticracer]

Yes to Michiko and Hatchin. So GOOD!

Beyond that I have just been discovering older anime I never noticed or which were never released, while I wait for Little Witch Academy and New Big O... at least one of those is happening.

 

[NPC009]

I think you've stepped into a trap without noticing. Youji is very much a common special anime snowflake. He might act like an underachiever but all the evidence points in another direction. Again, this is not some random private, he has a good rank (and actually gains some more throughout the anime) and he continues to achieve amazing things during the shows' run.

Like I said above, he is a special snowflake, just not specifically otaku-aimed. He is just your run of the mill character who is skilled at those tasks that anyone can identify with.

You do realise that there are a lot of military otaku in Japan? The guy basically combines two fantasies: he's a very competent soldier who gets to handle all sorts of military stuff and all the cute fantasy girls love him.

I am fighting, and losing to, the urge to ask "well if they're bunny girls how can they not be sexy" but seriously, they're not anything special. They reminded me of the Viera race from Ivalice but slightly more furry. I don't think FF stuff is particularly "otaku aimed", it's just...sexy bunny girls. Practically everyone who likes women likes them.

Just because they're common does not mean it makes the series anymore subdued. I know I'm not quite the target audience for Gate, but come on, even someone who is should see Gate's fantasy world and the way it's presented does not count as 'subdued'.

I am critical in seeing if I like how they go about it or not, not just purely being critical of them on a conceptual level, docking points regardless of execution. Every story element deserves fair treatment. I think my job is to try to like everything and then figure out why I didn't like the things I didn't and be critical about that. When I like something, well, I like it, it's perfect, nothing need happen. Depending on how much I like it, I will treat it accordingly. It's not that I am not critical, it's that I genuinely enjoyed everything to the max so I have nothing to take issue with. If that sounds absurd to you, well, sorry, agree to disagree .

You seem more on the type that prefers to focus on the details that tickle their fancy and is willing to overlook flaws in the big picture as long as those details meet their requirements. And I guess that fine if you watch anime and play games to for the sake of feeding your fantasies. However, I also think that's a very superficial way of looking at entertainment and one of the reasons why part of the Japanese entertainment industry is in a rut.

There's nothing wrong with expecting a little more from your entertainment and calling said entertainment and its creators out when it keeps choosing the safe path.

Oh, it's definitely safe. I never said those things were original. Just well-executed.

It might be different in the original light novels, but the anime rushes through and even past a lot of plot points. Those pacing problems really detract from the fantasy epos it could have been (if it had spend a little less time on showing cute girls falling for the male protagonist).

The fiancee thing was just because they shared sleeping quarters 3 times (one of which everyone was sleeping together in a hotel), hardly of any consequence. It was just humor. I don't think anyone can get any worthwhile fantasies off of such a joking moment. I just found it cute and moved on since that scene lasted for like 20 seconds, focusing on her sister's outrageous reaction was much more gripping than whatever fantasy potential offered by the joke.

Yeah, it was said half-jokingly, but do you know why jokes like that are commonly made? To show that the protagonist does have a chance with a girl. It's left at that so the viewer can use that information as they see fit. If they see the protagonist as an extension of themselves and want to think of 'their' girl as the main girls, thats something they can do. If they want their 'waifu' to remain innocent, that's also an option.

Series aimed at otaku (male and female) use tricks like this often. And once you're aware of it, it's hard to not notice it whenever they play that card again. Which is often.

There was literally no reason for them to actually become engaged, that seemed entirely unnecessary. It was more of a heat of the moment event (since that diplomat doesn't really strike me as a creep) and the story didn't at all need to go that way and nothing was gained by it either. I guess it was an emotional moment for the 12 year old female audience members in Japan, I can't really testify to that, but I saw no point to that story development. He could have just let her in the embassy without declaring he'd marry her lol.

Maybe I worded it wrong, but I don't think you understand what I meant.

Mage girl - could fall for and older guy (like the viewer) if you (the viewer) want to believe that. Or not. That's up to you. Fantasize away about your waifu!

This is coming from someone who did like the mage girl as a character. Which is what made moments like that hurt my enjoyment of the series: Gate had a lot of potential, it shouldn't have used tricks to pander to certain types of viewers.

Dead parents girl - is crushing on an older man (which is not actually that uncommon for real girls but is something that should not be encouraged of course), uses a diplomatic situation to protect her own interests (which includes not being murdered). It makes sense from her perspective: she likes him and he represents a foreign country that could protect her. A union like that would be very much in her favor. The guy is, obviously, very uncomfortable with the idea but at the same time doesn't want to endanger the life of a little girl. The series looks at like the complicated situation it is.

Shorter version:

Mage girl - pandering

Dead parents girl - plot

And just to be clear: I wouldn't have had any problems with that if main character's potential relationship with one of the girls, such as mage girl, had been properly explored in a way that respects both characters and wasn't just meant as otaku fodder. Unusual relationships can make for a good story, but they need to be written well. Gate never made that attempt, stopping at the 'nudge, nudge, wink' moments and jokes instead. Sadly, this is pretty much the norm for otaku series.

Proper analysis, if only there was such a thing. I think everyone at least in their head tries to do that in one way or another. Kinda like how no evildoer thinks themselves evil. I don't think anyone can say that they do that, and you can't look at the conclusion an analysis reaches and then say "I like this conclusion, therefore the analysis was proper". In this kind of thing you just have to take a step back and accept opposing interpretations. Just claiming to be more deeply analytical of something without fully knowing what contributed in the opposing conclusion borne out of another person's analysis isn't gonna solve anything.

True, there's no one perfect way to analyse fiction, but judging by your willingness to justify or downright ignore certain tropes and premises, I get the feeling you just don't like being critical of the entertainment you consume. Perhaps because enjoying something with flaws would mean you're flawed yourself?

Personally, I think being honest towards yourself makes you a better person. For instance, I like old school Cyborg 009 and think the original manga series is a ton of fun. I also acknowledge that the racial stereotypes in there are not okay, even if the author didn't mean them as an insult. And on top of that it will look strange to people that I enjoy a series that features harmful racial stereotypes.

 

[Nickolai77]

The protagonist of GATE is very much a typical wish fullfilment character. Just look at this:
-He's an otaku (just like the readers/viewers! instant connection!)
-But he's also totally awesome at being a soldier and he ends up saving the day several times
-There's a small herd of young (and 'actually 700 years old') girls surrounding him

To be fair, you could say the same about many other characters in fiction. James Bond is also totally awesome at being a secret agent, saves the world several times and has a herd of appropriately aged women wanting to bang him. The only difference is that James Bond isn't a character made to appeal to otaku audiences, so they gave him other masculine interests instead like drinking, gambling, gadgets and fast cars. There is a long, long list of male lead characters out there where they are basically awesome at what they do, save the world and get laid doing it. It is a male power fantasy and I don't think there's anything inherently bad about it- but the execution does matter.


I don't think 'wish fulfillment' in fiction is inherently bad. Harry Potter resonated with so many millions of people because it's a wish-fulfilment fantasy that replaces boring and mundane real life high school with an awesome magical high school. It could have been done badly, but Rowling did a very good job of it. The core concept of wish fulfilling fantasies isn't bad, it's how you do it that counts.

Yōji is indeed a wish-fulfilment character tailored to the Otaku audiences but that didn't detract me from enjoying watching the anime. I related quite well to the internal conflict the character has between the demands of his career and his own personal hobby. It's not believable though that he could be highly successful in his career yet also be apathetic about it- but the anime is self-aware enough to acknowledge this and poke a bit of fun at it. To be honest- I would love not to be able to give a damn about my career and still succeed at it, unfortunately life gets in the way and the same thing happens in the anime which makes the character relatable to me. To an extent I'm willing to forgive the anime for its some of its flaws because it doesn't takes itself seriously- The setting is certainly ludicrous, and so are parts of the characters.

If you're going to watch GATE, watch it because you want to see a modern military take on an ancient dragon. That shit is actually pretty cool.

Being pedantic I know, but a lot of the military technology you see in it is half a century old. When they do the Apocalypse Now parody they're flying old Hueys, and they take out dragons with Cold-Era Phantoms. You'd be forgiven for thinking the JSDF is severely outdated- but as I said before the anime isn't there to be taken seriously.

 

[NPC009]

To be fair, you could say the same about many other characters in fiction. James Bond is also totally awesome at being a secret agent, saves the world several times and has a herd of appropriately aged women wanting to bang him. The only difference is that James Bond isn't a character made to appeal to otaku audiences, so they gave him other masculine interests instead like drinking, gambling, gadgets and fast cars. There is a long, long list of male lead characters out there where they are basically awesome at what they do, save the world and get laid doing it. It is a male power fantasy and I don't think there's anything inherently bad about it- but the execution does matter.


I don't think 'wish fulfillment' in fiction is inherently bad. Harry Potter resonated with so many millions of people because it's a wish-fulfilment fantasy that replaces boring and mundane real life high school with an awesome magical high school. It could have been done badly, but Rowling did a very good job of it. The core concept of wish fulfilling fantasies isn't bad, it's how you do it that counts.

Yōji is indeed a wish-fulfilment character tailored to the Otaku audiences but that didn't detract me from enjoying watching the anime. I related quite well to the internal conflict the character has between the demands of his career and his own personal hobby. It's not believable though that he could be highly successful in his career yet also be apathetic about it- but the anime is self-aware enough to acknowledge this and poke a bit of fun at it. To be honest- I would love not to be able to give a damn about my career and still succeed at it, unfortunately life gets in the way and the same thing happens in the anime which makes the character relatable to me. To an extent I'm willing to forgive the anime for its some of its flaws because it doesn't takes itself seriously- The setting is certainly ludicrous, and so are parts of the characters.

I think it would have been a lot better if they had left it at the 'is a pretty good at his job despite putting in minimum effort'. Some (very, very lucky) people are like that. It's more what comes after that bothers me. He pretty much always ends up being in the right, even when going against orders. The stakes should be high in a story like this, but it's so obvious things will work out in his favour. I don't think Gate is insultingly bad or anything, but stories like this waste a lot of potential by playing it safe and pandering to the audience.

As for power fantasies... I don't think they're inherently bad either. It can be nice to read/watch something that doesn't challenge you in any way or form. However, when power fantasies start crowding out and butting into stories that could be much more engaging without them, that's a problem. It's a sign of stagnation, perhaps even decline.

Being pedantic I know, but a lot of the military technology you see in it is half a century old. When they do the Apocalypse Now parody they're flying old Hueys, and they take out dragons with Cold-Era Phantoms.

Well, okay, not modern-modern. I kinda figured some of the older stuff was there mostly because part of the audience consists of military otaku and they wanted to bring out some fanfavorites.

You'd be forgiven for thinking the JSDF is severely outdated- but as I said before the anime isn't there to be taken seriously.

I'm not so sure about that. At times, the show does not pull punches. For instance, the one-sided battles were often very painful to watch, as they should. I do think it wants to be taken seriously, but didn't have the guts to stick to the right tone throughout.

 

[gsilver]

Dead parents girl - plot

Dead parents are *so* common in anime, that I think that it's part of the power fantasy. Oh, no! Parents are dead! But he/she is still so capable!

It's much harder to come up with a list of characters across all anime whose parents are alive (and present in some capacity, even if just mentioned) than not.

 

[NPC009]

Dead parents girl - plot

Dead parents are *so* common in anime, that I think that it's part of the power fantasy. Oh, no! Parents are dead! But he/she is still so capable!

It's much harder to come up with a list of characters across all anime whose parents are alive (and present in some capacity, even if just mentioned) than not.

True, but that is not quite her situation. She's a fairly minor character and sometime after she comes into view, the entire household except her is murdered by the ruling regime. Instead of going on a fun shonen adventure with her nakama and an annoying mascot, she makes an attempt at politics to survive (and land herself an attractive foreign man).

 

[wings012]

Stop trying to look for a so called pattern in anime. People who cry about the state of anime, often cry about the same few shows or genres that come out and are quite popular. Well yes, there's a tendency towards 'moe' anime(I enjoy my cuteness though, it's soothing). Lots of wish fulfillment 'isekai' type web/light novel adaptations in recent days riding the coat tails off SAO's success. While shit like that irks me, meh anime is a wide medium. I don't have to dwell on it. There's also a lot of haters who just denounce the entire medium and have their anime taste stuck in the 90s. Yes yes Bebop was good, now fuck off.

There's a lot of other shows out there. Surely you can find one that matches your taste. Otherwise, maybe you aren't such a huge fan of anime after all.

While I'm basically moaning at this season for most part, ACCA-13 is one of my favourite shows in a very long time. Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu is in its second season and it was a show I didn't expect to watch or like.

You get atypical shows here and there every now and then. 91 days could have been better but it was fairly atypical considering the usual trends. As a result, it made for a pretty refreshing watch.

And sometimes you just have to step the fuck out of your comfort zone. I sure as hell didn't expect to enjoy Yuri on Ice as much as I did. I just heard SAKUGA and ICE SKATING and decided to give it a shot. And it was oddly intriguing. The animation shat itself on a lot of points - animating ice skating is fucking hard no doubt. It was uncomfortably homoerotic, but it was one of my favourite shows that season.

I've been watching anime weekly for more than a decade, and I can always find a few shows to watch each season.

And despite all the incomplete adaptations of stuff, you'll always find an anime original here and there. I can always count of P.A. Works to do one in between their adaptations.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Dead parents girl - plot

Dead parents are *so* common in anime, that I think that it's part of the power fantasy. Oh, no! Parents are dead! But he/she is still so capable!

It's much harder to come up with a list of characters across all anime whose parents are alive (and present in some capacity, even if just mentioned) than not.

True, but that is not quite her situation. She's a fairly minor character and sometime after she comes into view, the entire household except her is murdered by the ruling regime. Instead of going on a fun shonen adventure with her nakama and an annoying mascot, she makes an attempt at politics to survive (and land herself an attractive foreign man).

See, this is the kind of thing where if I gave a similar explanation about why other char's romance hints or what have you are also explained by plot, you'd just wave it off as just an excuse to pander.

I think all of it is plot, and you just like some parts of it more than others, which is fine. You not liking it, for whatever reason, doesn't make it not be plot and only be pandering. I personally still don't understand why the diplomat needed to actually become her fiancee and couldn't just let her in the embassy like how he let the other nobleman who was with her, he didn't have to marry him too but he was allowed over just fine. In any case, I liked the overall story too, I just brought her up at the outrage over the 15 year old, since she was 12, and the diplomat is at least as old as Youji, if not older. I got the impression he was older lol.

In the end, I just don't like the treatment certain kinds of plot get, it's basically prejudice which prevents you from actually enjoying something you could potentially enjoy. Hell, I'm not even claiming I love these specific elements the most or that I liked Gate more than Re:zero (I have the upcoming vita game based on that preordered, the LE too lol), all I'm saying here is that I have an open mind to the potential of them being good and am not going to judge them just for being what they are. Surely having an open mind and being honest with ones feelings of liking something isn't the end of the world. Surely liking more things of the thing you're a fan of is for the better. If that means that we're dooming the medium to die by liking it so much that we cause it to stagnate and not evolve, well, that is not our job. The ones who like different types of anime have to support their stuff, it is their job to do that. Especially since the notion of it stagnating is what other consider greatness.

I tend to like everything anyways, so no matter which direction it goes I'll likely be happy. I don't mind it being more like 80s and early 90s stuff, I don't mind remaining as is and slowly evolving. Hell, there's still tons of old stuff to go through if that's more your cup of tea anyways. I've been reading 3x3 eyes lately, cool stuff, like a mix of SMT and shounen.

 

[NPC009]

Dead parents girl - plot

Dead parents are *so* common in anime, that I think that it's part of the power fantasy. Oh, no! Parents are dead! But he/she is still so capable!

It's much harder to come up with a list of characters across all anime whose parents are alive (and present in some capacity, even if just mentioned) than not.

True, but that is not quite her situation. She's a fairly minor character and sometime after she comes into view, the entire household except her is murdered by the ruling regime. Instead of going on a fun shonen adventure with her nakama and an annoying mascot, she makes an attempt at politics to survive (and land herself an attractive foreign man).

See, this is the kind of thing where if I gave a similar explanation about why other char's romance hints or what have you are also explained by plot, you'd just wave it off as just an excuse to pander.

The guy she has a crush on is a another minor character, not the main character who serves as a potential avatar for the viewer.

I think all of it is plot, and you just like some parts of it more than others, which is fine. You not liking it, for whatever reason, doesn't make it not be plot and only be pandering. I personally still don't understand why the diplomat needed to actually become her fiancee and couldn't just let her in the embassy like how he let the other nobleman who was with her, he didn't have to marry him too but he was allowed over just fine. In any case, I liked the overall story too, I just brought her up at the outrage over the 15 year old, since she was 12, and the diplomat is at least as old as Youji, if not older. I got the impression he was older lol.

Considering the world beyond the gate still sees marriage as a matter of politics, marraige can be a very powerful tool. That's something she knows very well. Not to mention that most of its culture seems to be patriachal, meaning that letting her inside as a fianc?e would have an entire different meaning from letting her inside as an individual representing her house. A as future wife without many connections (since many of them were purged), she would be seen as less of a threat.

Again, you're just not getting it. Fucked up marriages for political reasons are a staple of fantasy fiction (because, you know, history's riddled with 'em). Dead parents girl has a crush on the handsome foreign diplomat and taking the initiative, sure, but the situation is treated as you'd expect it would be: a political and moral quagmire.

It's a very different context compared to yet another cute girl implying she's interested in the main character, leading to yet more potential for romance that will never go beyond vague hints because that would taint precious waifu material.

In the end, I just don't like the treatment certain kinds of plot get, it's basically prejudice which prevents you from actually enjoying something you could potentially enjoy.

Is it now? Should a clich? not be treated as a clich?? Poor writing and needless pandering not be pointed out? Even if you enjoy something, it's in your best interest to not be too lenient, because stuff like this makes fiction boring. It's practically word porn, only meant to stimulate some basic desires, never challenging the consumer.

Hell, I'm not even claiming I love these specific elements the most or that I liked Gate more than Re:zero (I have the upcoming vita game based on that preordered, the LE too lol), all I'm saying here is that I have an open mind to the potential of them being good and am not going to judge them just for being what they are. Surely having an open mind and being honest with ones feelings of liking something isn't the end of the world. Surely liking more things of the thing you're a fan of is for the better. If that means that we're dooming the medium to die by liking it so much that we cause it to stagnate and not evolve, well, that is not our job. The ones who like different types of anime have to support their stuff, it is their job to do that. Especially since the notion of it stagnating is what other consider greatness.

I tend to like everything anyways, so no matter which direction it goes I'll likely be happy. I don't mind it being more like 80s and early 90s stuff, I don't mind remaining as is and slowly evolving. Hell, there's still tons of old stuff to go through if that's more your cup of tea anyways. I've been reading 3x3 eyes lately, cool stuff, like a mix of SMT and shounen.

There's a difference between having an open-mind and having very low standards. An open mind means giving things a fair chance, low standards means being okay with whatever.

Personally, I think you're attitude is very unimpressive. Enjoying your entertainment is fine and all, but locking yourself up in a comfortzone and/or having low standards when it comes to something that probably consumes a significant amount your time, that's a fault rather than a quality.

 

[Kae]

.. This is what I watch now. Please don't judge me, i'm a sucker for mythical creature / hybrid girls >_>


Does it have memorable / likable protagonists? Check
Does the animation have good value and looks constantly polished? Check
Does it have a plot that is simple but interesting to follow? Check
Does it have comedy and golden humor? Check
Does it have fan service but not enough to ruin the show's quality? Check
Does it have depth, touching moments, and themes that are sensitive? Check
Does it have girls whom are actually dragons that can fight DBZ style? Check

My kind of anime. Not the best one out there, but definitely a good one to keep watch of.

Well, it is a Kyoto Animation production it would be odd if it had bad animation, even Musaigen no Phantom World that was absolute shit had excellent animation.

But riding on Frappe's wave, although I don't watch Kobayashi no Maid Dragon, I do love Kyoto Animation their second half of Euphonium this year was excellent with the only confusing thing being that the protagonists are not gay, I mean that is seriously odd as they totally act like a couple and it doesn't seem like they are baiting for fanservice sake but I guess Digibro might have a point with it, however the writing and characters are so good that I can get past that.

Besides that Rakugo is fantastic, I'm just waiting for it to be over so I can binge watch it because wathing it week to week does not cut it for me.

Bottom line Anime is actually pretty varied at the moment, there are a lot of trash Light Novel adaptations and Harem Anime but there are some genuinely good adult dramas being produced, with good comedies and such, so everyone that is claiming Anime is dying must not be paying much attention, I mean last year we had an anime about making a dictionary, and it was good.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

I will be honest and say that I subscribe to Hiroki Azuma's idea of database consumption of media. This postulates that otaku don't watch shows for grand narratives but consume based on elements of individual narratives and that there is a point where people take elements from shows and rearrange them
(more complex explaination here [http://www.digitalcultureandeducation.com/uncategorized/dce_r005_schafer/]

How does this impact how i feel about anime? well, I find most anime to be mere collections of tropes and attractive elements than fully made original narratives. That said, I will confess to finding some of the anime made from collecting tropes to be fun or even revolutionary. However, I find that due to the database nature of most current anime that it gets tiring and annoying to see the same trends and patterns over and over.

Edit: Yes, i know, upon second reading, that I could be seen as a pretentious idiot. sorry.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Considering the world beyond the gate still sees marriage as a matter of politics, marraige can be a very powerful tool. That's something she knows very well. Not to mention that most of its culture seems to be patriachal, meaning that letting her inside as a fianc?e would have an entire different meaning from letting her inside as an individual representing her house. A as future wife without many connections (since many of them were purged), she would be seen as less of a threat.

Again, you're just not getting it. Fucked up marriages for political reasons are a staple of fantasy fiction (because, you know, history's riddled with 'em). Dead parents girl has a crush on the handsome foreign diplomat and taking the initiative, sure, but the situation is treated as you'd expect it would be: a political and moral quagmire.

It's a very different context compared to yet another cute girl implying she's interested in the main character, leading to yet more potential for romance that will never go beyond vague hints because that would taint precious waifu material.

I think that you read too much into that scene or that you're injecting it with things that aren't there so that you can continue to like it without trespassing on whatever belief that would be trespassed upon if you acknowledged it as being primarily lolicon pandering which is what that entire plot line struck me as from the first hints of it, but either way, we both liked that scene so that's good.

Is it now? Should a clich? not be treated as a clich?? Poor writing and needless pandering not be pointed out? Even if you enjoy something, it's in your best interest to not be too lenient, because stuff like this makes fiction boring. It's practically word porn, only meant to stimulate some basic desires, never challenging the consumer.

If it's boring, you don't need to tell me or convince me of it. I will be bored because boring things are inherently boring and they need no outside help for one to acknowledge them as such. Clearly, I do not find some things boring that you do. Am I wrong in liking what I like? Is pasta carbonarra also too mundane of a favorite food?

There's a difference between having an open-mind and having very low standards. An open mind means giving things a fair chance, low standards means being okay with whatever.

Personally, I think you're attitude is very unimpressive. Enjoying your entertainment is fine and all, but locking yourself up in a comfortzone and/or having low standards when it comes to something that probably consumes a significant amount your time, that's a fault rather than a quality.

I don't think there's low or high standards. People just like what they like. What we mean when we say "this person has a high standard in which anime they like" really is "this person doesn't like most anime". It is pretentious to assume that just because you are harder to please for whatever (sometimes none too righteous) reasons that you are somehow more discerning of a fan. It just means that...your taste is what it is and that's fine but that's just your opinion and whatnot.

My attitude is simply one of being honest with oneself and not letting people tell me liking things for whatever inherent reasons that caused me to like them is inferior than the reasons they allow to sway them into liking what they like. It's not really intended to impress anyone, it's just the natural way of being true to oneself that makes sense to have in life in general.

There's really no comfort zone for me (outside of something like Getta Robo I guess cause nostalgia, hehe), I try everything and try to find things I like about anything I watch such that I can honor the work the artists put in it. Just because I love this stuff doesn't mean I don't also love other stuff, and for reasons you'd be more comfortable or agree more with. Instead of low standards I just see it as me loving anime.

 

[BrawlMan]

Don't really watch any of the new anime. But I can say that the last one that really interested me (enough to buy the light novels) was Overlord. Edit: (it's fairly bloody btw, just a little warning)

Meh, while brutal, this is really tame compared all the ultra violent anime schlock released in the 80s and 90s.

Shit, look at the beginning scene from Ninja Scroll.

<spoiler=Ninja Scroll>
As for the people talking about GATE, I definitely don't like it. Not only is it typical otaku bait, but it's very xenophobic and jingoistic, so author can go fuck himself. When fan fic writers do a better job with writing, characterization, and a more nuanced view, you know there are problems with your show. By the way, Rory Mercury is just a loli Alucard, but even that idea was done a million times better in the actual Hellsing (manga)/Hellsing Ultimate anime.

Don't believe me? Heads up, this clip does contain a lot of spoilers for Hellsing.

<spoiler=Hellsing Ultimate Girlycard>
Skip to 8:02 and make sure to turn the annotations off.