[Social Criticism] Ugly Narcissism - Sonder in Short Supply

[Pr0]

For some reason quoting is broken for me but I'll respond to the bits of your post Vault101 that I feel are definitely worth clarifying.

First of all, I'm not espousing right wing forms of thought, I personally vote democratic or independent as a rule. What I'm espousing is a simple observance that the tolerance parade has reached its logical conclusion, in of which everyone is now a winner.

Congratulations. Go Team Planet.

Except not really. See, no matter how much we lower the bar, that doesn't stop the genetic inevitability of random chance providing constant and salient examples of how far below the top of the curve we truly are. We can wave our hashtag flags around all day long and tell each other how okay it is to be exactly who we are, and randomly salted among us will be the very people that show us we haven't even tried to fulfill our total potential.

This is not about hating the fat, nor is it about breast size. This is about standards and standards aren't immobile and fixed things but they do have an absolute minimum requirement to be met. And this is a truth of existence that many people in modern society have not been properly prepared to deal with and admit to themselves.

As far as "other factors" go, of course I'm accounting for other factors, the randomness of the genetic lottery being the most obvious of them all, but environmental and developmental factors are also something I consider, but none of these things have to define who we are or who we can become. They are simple constants in an ever evolving equation that is called "living", to accept that any one of them defines you inherently is to be bound by its own limitations and to give oneself an excuse for why you "couldn't" do/be/achieve certain things with your life.

There are certain environmental and developmental factors that can retard the capabilities of almost anyone but the most gifted of individuals and this is a a known factor too. But the issue as it stands isn't about the unfairness of the world. Its about people that really aren't even trying to make it a better place by even bettering themselves, sitting around complaining about how unfair it is and how the rules should be changed so they can win the game as well.

As someone stated earlier in the post, there are hundreds of thousands of unemployed or under employed college graduates out there. Is that fair? Of course not, they got sold a dream and just like a dream, it wasn't real. But what are they doing about it? To my observance most of them appear to be complaining about not being given the opportunities they were told their education would afford them. And hey, I get it, it sucks when things don't work out the way you planned but not everyone that got sold that pipe dream of McMansions and luxury cars after college is sitting around complaining about how bad their lives are, I know quite a few that since the world didn't have a space for them, they made their own space in the world to do what they love and they have done alright with that and they're very happy with their lives...they didn't call for industries to change their standards and give them the job they were trained for..they went and made the job they wanted to have....often with nothing more than the pure stubborn headed will to do it and whatever pocket change they had left in the bank.

While I admire your nonconformist spirit, the simple facts of your acceptance or non-acceptance of my standards or anyone's really just comes back to what I said in my original post, it doesn't matter if you think celebrities aren't beautiful because chances are pretty good that regardless of what you think, they are still celebrities and you, are...well, whatever you are...I don't want to call you a barista for fear you might be triggered by such an accusation and I'll get sued by some weird advocacy organization for online battery or something. That previous statement is mostly intended as a sad satire of what our social structure has begun to descend into.

Anyways, understanding and accepting social Darwinism as a very real factor in how humans actually "really are" as compared to the way Tumblr or Twitter appears to want them to be, doesn't mean I'm some right wing person whos like "sure sucks that you're so poor, you should try not being poor..its awesome." I'm a tolerant and accepting person, I don't hold any hatred for anyone, but I do feel a creeping disgust for the people that are eroding our standards at their very foundations to attempt to "level the field" when really its not about that, its about ensuring everyone gets to win and no one feels like they lost at life.

And I'm sorry but the truth of the matter is I can't throw a brick even in real life without hitting someone thats already lost at life. And the social movement that expects me to coddle these people and give them a gold star for showing up is ridiculous and needs to grow up and realize how ridiculous it is. They'll be far more productive people once they do.

 

[Vault101]

First of all, I'm not espousing right wing forms of thought, I personally vote democratic or independent as a rule..

some ideas seem to run very strong in right wing believes, and again your repeating those ideas...that doesn't mean your right wing or have to identify as right wing (these things are a spectrum after all) but its a very common pattern one sees when issues like this are brought up



[quote/]As far as "other factors" go, of course I'm accounting for other factors, the randomness of the genetic lottery being the most obvious of them all, but environmental and developmental factors are also something I consider, but none of these things have to define who we are or who we can become.[/quote]
actually they DO for a lot of people


[quote/]They are simple constants in an ever evolving equation that is called "living", to accept that any one of them defines you inherently is to be bound by its own limitations and to give oneself an excuse for why you "couldn't" do/be/achieve certain things with your life.[/quote]
[I/]everyone else should just like...NOT have problems..gosh how hard is it?[/I]<- yeeeeaaaaah I don't think your in a position to judge when people are "letting" things hold them back

[quote/]. But the issue as it stands isn't about the unfairness of the world. Its about people that really aren't even trying to make it a better place by even bettering themselves, sitting around complaining about how unfair it is and how the rules should be changed so they can win the game as well.[/quote]
again your operating under the assumption "the game" is inherently fair and good and shouldn't be questioned

and ok I can sort of understand the mindset that people should focus on themselves because that's "tangible" at the individual level

but that doesn't mean we should just throw up our hands and say "welp there aint nothin to be done" if we did that then civil rights we take for granted today wouldn't exist


[quote/]As someone stated earlier in the post, there are hundreds of thousands of unemployed or under employed college graduates out there. Is that fair? Of course not, they got sold a dream and just like a dream, it wasn't real. But what are they doing about it? To my observance most of them appear to be complaining about not being given the opportunities they were told their education would afford them
And hey, I get it, it sucks when things don't work out the way you planned but not everyone that got sold that pipe dream of McMansions and luxury cars after college is sitting around complaining about how bad their lives are [/quote]
cause you know exactly what everyone is doing...


[quote/]I know quite a few that since the world didn't have a space for them, they made their own space in the world to do what they love and they have done alright with that and they're very happy with their lives...they didn't call for industries to change their standards and give them the job they were trained for..they went and made the job they wanted to have....often with nothing more than the pure stubborn headed will to do it and whatever pocket change they had left in the bank.[/quote]
BOOTSTRAPS!!!

again, the world is inherently fair and if you bash you're head against a rock enough you'll strike gold


[quote/] it doesn't matter if you think celebrities aren't beautiful[/quote]
did I say that? no I didn't

because your assuming the affirmation of one idea takes away from another

I am ok with how I look therefore I think I'm prettier than Natalie portman <-untrue

[quote/]I don't want to call you a barista for fear you might be triggered by such an accusation[/quote]
no because I don't have anything against Baristas, I'm a general office admin assistant without any higher education...so please by all means criticise me for my position in life...I don't mind

[quote/]and I'll get sued by some weird advocacy organization for online battery or something. That previous statement is mostly intended as a sad satire of what our social structure has begun to descend into.[/quote]
some people struggle with institutional oppression, bad luck, unemployment, disabilities

but you are subject to seeing Social justice buzzwords on the internet

so you went on a tirade about how actually if *something something bootstraps*

.....life must be so hard dude....

[quote/]Anyways, understanding and accepting social Darwinism as a very real factor in how humans actually "really are" [/quote]
social Darwinism is just another interpretation of "the game" and has very little to do with Darwin's theory of evolution


[quote/] And the social movement that expects me to coddle these people and give them a gold star for showing up is ridiculous and needs to grow up and realize how ridiculous it is. They'll be far more productive people once they do.[/quote]
grow up?

some people should grow up and realise different people have different experiences and advantages/disadvages because you saw a bunch of people on twitter and it bothered you so much you had to throw a bunch of libertarian rhetoric at them...like it can solve everyone's problems,

so YES they DO expect you to coddle people

to not call the mentaly disabled retarded
to call Trans people by their preferred pro-nouns
to not use words like "fag" now matter how much you explain its roots in chan culture
to respect the voices of "other" people
to acknowledge the disadvantages certain groups have and the privilege other groups enjoy

and if that's really too hard, then...

gee I dunno, maybe stop complaining and get on with life? find some bootstraps?

 

[Pr0]

Advantages and privilege. Hot topics these days.

George Washington Carver might have a few things to say about disadvantages and privilege. He grew up harder than anyone in modern society has ever had it, contributed far more than his fair share to the development of the world around him and died a rather well off man for the early 20th century. I'm pretty sure I don't have to point out that this was a black man in a time when black people had no real civil rights whatsoever. But yet he still felt the need to contribute, to better himself, to fulfill his potential. And this was back when calling a man a negro was a polite term.

I'll avoid the tongue in cheek statements and bulleting out a list of people that didn't give a damn about the box they were put in at birth and lived well and beyond the self limitation of accepting a label.

Far as your list of things I shouldn't do...I don't really do any of that? People that are mentally disabled are different than people that are simply mentally incapable of accepting their place in life and then taking positive steps to better it. I actually did volunteer on site medical assistance for the mentally disabled for a few years because a lot of them don't always have direct access to the medical care they need at all times.

Trans people are whatever they look like, the whole "preferred pronouns" thing is pointless to me, if you look like a woman, you're a woman and I'll address you as such, same with FTM's. If they look like a man, I call them a man.

Using words like "fag" is only really acceptable well into a bottle of Jamesons with a group of friends you've known for years and calling each other gay is a long term conversational joke. Other than that there is no point to the word as a description, unless you're gay, then you're allowed to spray paint the word on your butt in bright pink and post the picture on on Reddit to the tune of 10,000+ upvotes. (Not sure if you felt me rolling my eyes there but I totally did.)

Respecting other peoples voices is easy, finding value in what is coming out of their mouths is much harder. And with the 140 character attention span theater crowd, it is even more difficult.

I continue to stand by my premise, and you are welcome to disagree with it. No one is designed to be disadvantaged nothing about the system is truly rigged against those that can rise to the challenge of transcending it. Stephen Hawking has to defecate into a colostomy bag and can't move or communicate except by moving his eyes and yet hes the most brilliant mind in theoretical cosmology of our time. Sure he didn't start out that way, but he didn't let something as trivial as complete neuro-muscular paralysis slow him down all that much now did he? I'm pretty sure thats a larger disadvantage than most of the people on your list generally deal with.

 

[Vault101]

George Washington Carver might have a few things to say about disadvantages and privilege. He grew up harder than anyone in modern society has ever had it, contributed far more than his fair share to the development of the world around him and died a rather well off man for the early 20th century. I'm pretty sure I don't have to point out that this was a black man in a time when black people had no real civil rights whatsoever. But yet he still felt the need to contribute, to better himself, to fulfill his potential. And this was back when calling a man a negro was a polite term..

unlike that other guy...who just whined all the god damn time...what was his name....martin something...god what a cry baby /s

yeah ok privileges/disadvantages don't real...I get it...

why don't I put it a different way

striving to achieve and acknowledging the inequalities of the system are not mutually exclusive, you can do all you can as a person and also believe that "whatever ism" is a thing...weather you've experienced it or not

yet for whatever reason you in your infinite wisdom have decided that people who "complain" on social media about these things clearly aren't doing anything else...don't have goals/ambition/whatever..no no YOU know what's going on because your experience (or I really should say your thoughts) are applicable to everyone right?

 

[Ariseishirou]

For all the supposed celebration of "mediocrity" and terrible narcissism and the social decay it wreaks, here are a few facts:

-Leading schools are more difficult to get into than they ever have been in the past
-Children today score higher on both standardized tests and IQ tests than their parents did
-Violent crime is at the lowest it has ever been in all of history throughout the industrialized world
-Fewer people die violent deaths in wars now than ever in history
-Obesity peaked with the previous generation and is now in decline among youth

For all the hand-wringing about selfies and Starbucks, today's youth simply are smarter and more moral than generations past, and I'm not sure not wanting a Dislike button on Facebook somehow discredits all of that. In what way does this make them inherently lesser than their fat, war-mongering, criminal, less intelligent parents? I'd take a peaceful, educated, if self-involved Millennial over a thoughtless spendthrift Boomer who tanked the economy with poor decisions and not only screwed themselves out of their retirement savings out of sheer ignorance and avarice, but their children out of jobs as well. Or a mouth-breathing, nearly dead, bigoted member of the Lost Generation, desperately voting UKIP or Tea Party in droves to keep "those people" out of their country, or clawing back reproductive rights to punish harlots.

 

[Gunner 51]

What a fabulously thought provoking thread you created here, Pr0. Please allow me to wade in with my own two cents.

Here in Britain, we have a similar competitive streak ingrained upon our national psyche to you in the U.S. Children in schools are taught to compete with one another, to get good grades and a good job otherwise become a "benefits sponge / scounger."

One thing I have noticed is that people are absolutely vicious and nasty to each other around here, especially if they're poor, fat or simply on benefits. They are seen to have not done well in school / bettered themselves or generally put no effort into their lives.

While a little competition is a good thing, too much of it will ultimately shatter one's country. If everyone is competing amongst themselves - they cannot truly unify with their fellow countrymen. In essence, too many chiefs and not enough braves.

Please allow me to illustrate how I perceive this system as it works here in Britain.

1.) One goes to school / college where you are pressured into getting good grades to get a good job, and told that there's jobs available to all - everyone is really tries their best. They want the good jobs and try to out-swat their fellow students.

2.) The students get the good grades they deserve and they're all pretty high on life right now. They go off in search of jobs only to have the carpet pulled from under the feet...

3.) It turns out that the qualifications they got aren't worth spit. Employers for the well paid jobs want people with university degrees for their jobs that don't really need them. But universities are pretty much hidden behind a big assed pay-wall so only the wealthy can afford them. Furthermore, there aren't enough jobs in general to go around.

4.) At this point, getting a job is now a matter of luck because everyone is desperate for work and the employers have an absolutel bonanza of applicants to choose from - but they will always choose people with "experience." Or they choose to "outsource."

5.) They become the thing they are raised to hate. the jobseekers and are now reliant upon state aid. Where upon they are told by the media that they're all benefits scroungers and are generally useless and a burden to society.

Finding the jobs are easy - if something of a climb-down from what they wanted to do in life. But getting the jobs are the hard part. When they do manage to get the job, they've burned out at having to fight and compete to survive for so long that they become bitter and nasty and will fight tooth and nail to protect their job.

Even if you don't get a job, you will either become nasty and bitter through the years of media bullying or you simply give up and live a life of depression and substance abuse.

Boy, that sure got dark and cynical toward the end. Man, I think I need to browse something cute lest such a sorry state of affairs depress me.

Spoiler

 

[Phasmal]

What? You mean you've never had an existential crisis yet?

Absolutely the opposite, my friend. I mean, everyone's had this one.
The `you're nothing special` mentality/crisis, is in itself- nothing special.

I think your answer at least in part encapsulates what he's saying. Your mantra of be happy puts comfort and "Hedonistic" (in the philosophical sense) pursuits over other concerns like excellence, adherence to rules, or even a buddhistic "removal of self". Why? Why is a society where everyone pursues their own idea of happiness something good or better than one where everyone strives to achieve a sort of technical and character based "perfection?"?

I always knew I'd destroy society somehow.
Oh well, I guess we'll see where this road goes. Perhaps people being happy being themselves will destroy everything, but we'll have a good time getting there.

Brings us back to the interminable differences you know? We agree to disagree just because *shrugs*

Fair enough I suppose.

I think that that may be a destructive attitude when you put it into a sphere where a decision needs to be made, like politics.

Hah, almost anything can be a destructive attitude if you add politics into it. (As in capital P-Politics, government shit).

 

[Batou667]

I don't know if we can call this a society-wide issue, but I agree, there are certainly areas of society that have become a mediocracy - spaces where it's desirable to self-deprecate and to portray onesself as nothing special or preferably disadvantaged in some way.

This is different to simple self-acceptance, because it's commonly informed by Socialist/Marxist style Tall Poppy thinking: if we're all born equal, then anybody who's cleverer than me must have cheated the test, anybody more beautiful than me must have had plastic surgery, anybody stronger than me is obviously on steroids, anybody richer than me must have exploited somebody for it. The obvious rebuttal is that equal doesn't mean identical, but in the eyes of progressive liberals they are (or ought to be) synonymous: acknowledging a difference is the same as privileging one trait over another. "Different but equal" is anathema; it didn't work for sex or race, so logically it can't work in any other context, even when the differences between two individuals are like night and day.

The West and particularly the US have always celebrated individualism, but recently this has been combined with deconstructivist philosophy, like the feminist idea that beauty is a social construct and therefore an artificial tool of the patriarchy and the capitalist beauty industry. Or the Fat Acceptance movement which uses rhetoric of equality and anti-elitism to argue that obese people are just as worthy (correct), beautiful (subjective) and healthy (false) as the non-obese, and bolsters this position by invoking suspicion of Patriarchal mainstream science, fascist concepts of physical perfection, and the capitalist nature of the diet and pharma industries. Social Justice movements are champions of the perceived underdog and use jealousy and mistrust of the elite, the bourgeois, the "system", the "1%". The take-home message is that the powerful and successful are to be mistrusted, hated and if possible brought down a peg or three.

I also agree that modern childrearing and educational practices have pushed toward a situation where confidence is more important than ability, trying is more important than succeeding, and no child must ever experience failure or be held accountable for their own actions. Now, as somebody who was until recently involved in education it would be irresponsible of me to suggest this is the case across the board, or represents the typical worldview of school-age children. In reality children are competitive - and they also arrive at school with robust ideas about desirable traits, normativity and gender roles, go figure - but it's worrying that this kind of "Aim low, never be disappointed" social philosophy exists in academia at all.

What's the solution? Well, it's encouraging that people are calling this out for the bullshit it is. And, like all social movements, there has to be a backswing eventually.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

Why? Why is a society where everyone pursues their own idea of happiness something good or better than one where everyone strives to achieve a sort of technical and character based "perfection?"?

Brings us back to the interminable differences you know? We agree to disagree just because *shrugs*

I think that that may be a destructive attitude when you put it into a sphere where a decision needs to be made, like politics.

Well...my response is, basically, "Nihilism."

I seem to be defaulting to that N word this past decade rather than anything relating to Narcissus' legacy. Kind of hard to drum up a modicum of 'give a damn' when you've got "None of this really matters and everything I or anyone else does on this planet is inherently pointless" floating around in your head on a daily basis.

I can certainly understand people clinging to whatever faint glimmer of happiness they can somehow afford themselves. I don't begrudge them their attempts. We're selfish creatures, but I just wish folks were less...assholeish about the pursuit of said happiness and perhaps less prone to stomping on that of their fellows to acquire it-

-which is my problem with a lot of this hashtag bullshit.

A lot of unhappy, unfulfilled people doing their best to ensure that other people are just as unhappy and unfulfilled. I just don't get it.

Getting a little tedious though...

 

[Vault101]

Snip

acknowledging and challenging the system and "doing things" are not mutually exclusive

[quote/]some of the most important discoveries of humankind by people who are not allowed to teach in universities without converting and all kind of nastiness, I don't think that if they were alive today they'd waste their time crying about how hard their lives were in social media.[/quote]

no they cried about it on [b/]other platforms that were availible at the time[/b]

A lot of unhappy, unfulfilled people doing their best to ensure that other people are just as unhappy and unfulfilled. I just don't get it.
...

people here [i/]literally[/i] want others to remain silent,

because they think that if inequalities were actually real then all their achievements their precious "merit" is null and void

and that does not have to be the case

for example... I can draw what factors led to that?

-I had parents who valued education and who valued my interest in art and bought me art supplies
-I had access to education that gave me the time/space to work on it
-I had access to the internet which provides not only tons of resources but a place to post art and a potential audience
-should I wish I could go on to further education in art
- I am lucky enough to be able to afford expensive software, hardware, materials, books, an extra tablet for reference only ect to maximiaze what I can do

these privileges do not take away the time or effort I put in, but DO exist and it would be ridiculous to pretend everyone else is on the same playing field

I think your answer at least in part encapsulates what he's saying. Your mantra of be happy puts comfort and "Hedonistic" (in the philosophical sense) pursuits over other concerns like excellence, adherence to rules, or even a buddhistic "removal of self". Why? Why is a society where everyone pursues their own idea of happiness something good or better than one where everyone strives to achieve a sort of technical and character based "perfection?"?

because what the fuck is perfection and who gets to decide what it is?

somebody might think perfection for me would be to land the perfect man, have a wonderful house and 3 perfect children...

except what if I'm gay? what if I don't want children? what shall I do then?

the individual pursuit of happyness (within the framework of society and social pressures) is the closest thing we have to co existing without trying to kill each other

which if you recall in history we did a lot of back then...and still do now in certain parts of the world

 

[Zontar]

So tl;dr:

"I disagree with people that celebrate normality and don't aim for perfection".

Put that at the top. Hopefully it'll save someone from having to read that long post that goes nowhere.

Aren't typical "TL;DR"s supposed to be abbreviations of what someone actually said?

Out of curiosity, reply with both of the answers you have if I answered "Yes" and "No". I want to see the differences in them.

To the answer being yes: then you failed because your TL;DR isn't an accurate reflection on what the OP posted.

To the answer being no: then what is the point of a TL;DR post.

 

[JemothSkarii]

I'm just sorta doing my own thing.

Writing a book currently. It's what I think constitutes as my 'skill', did a lot of reading as a child. Will it get published? Probably not. I'd love for it to, thanks to the Internet I could probably just self publish it as an ebook.

But I'm going to try and get a book physically published. No matter how many drafts, publishers and agents I have to go through I'm going to publish a book and say 'I MADE THIS'. Self publishing as an ebook feels empty to me, nothing you can thrust into somebody's face and go 'LOOK AT THIS THING I ACHIEVED'.

What does this have to do with the thread? I could think if I was writing a book that everyone has to see that it's the best thing ever. But it won't be. Writing a book, like life, will never be perfect. Can't look over the damn thing without feeling like 'this could be better'. But deep down that's right, it CAN be better.

I keep bringing this up; it's a pain, but it's for the point. Growing up with Cerebal Palsy (Spastic Diplegia) everything was a challenge to do. Get dressed, walk, cut food, cook. To this day I can't tie shoe laces or jump. There are workarounds for these limitations.
Well maybe not jumping; white men can't jump *rimshot*
I could improve my physical capabilities. I get tired out easily, get stiff and never have any energy, dexterity and balance fucks itself sideways. Disability is partially to blame, but so is my shit diet and lack of fitness.
It's a lot of work. There's been a lot of work to get where I am.
Plenty of people have it worse than me though. Cerebal Palsy wise I'm INCREDIBLY lucky.

Am I happy with what I'm doing? I say I am but I have a lot of anxiety. Lots of it can be fixed by going out and doing something.
I think some people deep down are happy to be unhappy. Think that by living with problems and feeling bad about their situation they can just sort of coast by and have people feel bad for them. Can't stand people feeling bad for me or helping me without asking. It disgusts me to no end. Being coddled like a child because I have a walking gait of a drunk man.
I could improve my lot in life greatly by trying. Right now I'm not because I keep blaming depression and anxiety. Studies state I was basically destined for it because my brain was fucked from birth. But I'm lucky: Don't have intellectual issues, don't have epilepsy, I can walk to some degree. I'm comfy being alone and writing a book that will probably fall into obscurity.
I like so many other people are hypocritical.
In the end everyone should try and make things better than they are for themselves then do what they can around them.
But really you're only special if you do something to make yourself special.

 

[MysticSlayer]

Societal beauty standards don't just regard weight. Things like skin color (yes, I am going there), hair color, eye color, etc. all tend to come up. So what if society wants to say that white skin is the most attractive. Are you really going to say that black people should just shut up, not start movements [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_is_beautiful], and accept that they are losers? Basically, are you willing to continue this "stop complaining about societal beauty standards" and "there are winners and losers" stances once the potential for racism starts coming into play? Somehow, I doubt most people would be willing to go there, but if race is irrelevant here, why should a person's weight be used by society to judge their beauty?

I can get encouraging someone to eat better and work out for health reasons. But there's really no reason to separate people as "winners" and "losers" based on their weight, especially when some people have little control over their weight due to genetics. So no, I'm not going to lament that people want to change the societal standards of beauty. If you want to complain about someone believing that they should be given all A's in school without putting in any work, fine. If you want to complain about that person demanding they have a high paying job when they never apply anywhere and slack off at the places they do work, fine. But let's at least recognize where people do have reason to complain.

 

[Ihateregistering1]

Societal beauty standards don't just regard weight. Things like skin color (yes, I am going there), hair color, eye color, etc. all tend to come up. So what if society wants to say that white skin is the most attractive. Are you really going to say that black people should just shut up, not start movements [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_is_beautiful], and accept that they are losers? Basically, are you willing to continue this "stop complaining about societal beauty standards" and "there are winners and losers" stances once the potential for racism starts coming into play? Somehow, I doubt most people would be willing to go there, but if race is irrelevant here, why should a person's weight be used by society to judge their beauty?

I can get encouraging someone to eat better and work out for health reasons. But there's really no reason to separate people as "winners" and "losers" based on their weight, especially when some people have little control over their weight due to genetics. So no, I'm not going to lament that people want to change the societal standards of beauty. If you want to complain about someone believing that they should be given all A's in school without putting in any work, fine. If you want to complain about that person demanding they have a high paying job when they never apply anywhere and slack off at the places they do work, fine. But let's at least recognize where people do have reason to complain.

You can complain all you want, but the notion that society somehow 'owes' being just as attracted (or perhaps even more attracted) to a certain characteristic as to another is ridiculous. You can look at yourself in the mirror all day and be convinced that you're the greatest looking human being who ever lived, that doesn't mean anyone else is obligated to think so.

Does that mean people should be cruel and call you ugly? No, but it also doesn't mean they're obligated to lie to you and tell you how beautiful they think you are to help out your self-esteem.

You don't have to accept that you're a 'loser' by any stretch, but you do have to accept that there are standards of beauty that, while not necessarily universal, are common to the point of almost being that way. For example, study after study after study has shown that the vast majority of women are more attracted to men who are taller than them. Does that mean every guy who is 5'3 just needs to declare himself a 'loser'? No, but it does mean that he needs to realize that getting angry about the fact that he doesn't meet "society's beauty standards" isn't going to magically make billions of women change their minds.

 

[MysticSlayer]

You can complain all you want, but the notion that society somehow 'owes' being just as attracted (or perhaps even more attracted) to a certain characteristic as to another is ridiculous. You can look at yourself in the mirror all day and be convinced that you're the greatest looking human being who ever lived, that doesn't mean anyone else is obligated to think so.

The point isn't that people need to tell you that you are the most attractive person around. The point is that society shouldn't be telling you that there is some standard of beauty that you must live up to lest you be in some way lesser than those who do live up to it.

Does that mean people should be cruel and call you ugly? No, but it also doesn't mean they're obligated to lie to you and tell you how beautiful they think you are to help out your self-esteem.

That's assuming that there's some objective measure of beauty. Sure, one individual may not find you particularly attractive, but another might think you look really good.

 

[IamLEAM1983]

If you spend your time being unhappy at people who are just getting on with it, I dunno, I don't see the productivity there.

I think his problem is with those who didn't get it, those who do think they're special and that the reality that they aren't is met with them lashing out instead of dealing with it like the rest of us do.

We've been going through this problem here in Quebec for years, being exemplified by student protests in 2012 and again right now as we speak.

Hey, fellow Quebecer here.

I was stuck in the first wave of protests in 2012; largely kept from working on my memoir for close to three months because the campus' vicinity looked like something out of a zombie apocalypse flick.

I'm kind of torn, honestly. I don't agree that perfection is something that we should strive for, because that just doesn't seem like an objective standpoint to nurture. On the other hand, I'd agree that we all owe it to ourselves to be all that we can be. Does that equal perfection? I couldn't tell you. I think perfection, either moral or physical, is like beauty - in that it's in the eye of the beholder.

Consider this: I'm 31 years old, self-employed, a bit on the pasty side and fighting back against the dreaded spare tire using lots of treadmill runs and a recent addiction to green juice. However, I have cerebral palsy and won't ever fit in with society's prescribed ideals of beauty, even if I were to sink thousands of dollars into my own bod. Not to mention that I think there's a point where self-improvement, to quote Tyler Durden, verges on masturbation. I want to be healthy, not squeeze myself into GQ's pages. No surgery could correct my strabismus definitively, so glasses are going to be a permanent fixture. If anything, the only thing I can keep trimming and nurturing is my intellect.

I'm special in that I have access to services and living conditions that physically able persons couldn't legally claim without some fairly well-orchestrated insurance fraud taking place. I have financial assistance for the same reason. At the same time, I've never kept up with that "special snowflake" mentality. I'm just a guy who has different living parameters, and beyond that my life can still be summarized to the ages-old salary-earning slog.

Like a lot of guys around my age range, I saw the beginnings of the provincial government's fucking with the school system, and was part of the last generation to get a decent grade-point average. I was brought up to accept my own failings, whereas a lot of students whose work I had to correct couldn't handle criticism. We've gone to a point where you can shoot for high-tier postgrad education while still writing like you're fresh out of an IRC group chat.

Otherwise, I have a hard time seeing where this stops being objective criticism and becomes a gestating curmudgeon's mutterings about the world. I look at Tumblr, for instance, and shake my head at the droves of people who angrily insist that their identity verges on specific labels, or that a given label serves as an excuse for isolationism or outright prejudice. When everyone is "triggered" by something, what's left of free speech?

What leaves me indecisive is the way I consider that most of the advances enjoyed by the LGBTQ and Trans communities are essential and should be celebrated. Other people state this as well, but also use it to say they'd like the same opportunities to be extended to Asexuals and Aromantics, to Furries and Otherkin and all sorts of self-made denominations I know practically nothing about...

I believe in self-expression, but I guess what I'm asking is at what point is someone's idea of perfection someone else's idea of the grotesque?