Something that's bothered me...

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Booze Zombie

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Please answer a question for me, people of The Escapist!
Why are people so dismissive of science when it comes to global warming, claiming that they don't trust "those people" but when it comes to "those people" tampering with life it's self, modifying our crops and "making it better for us and able to feed more people" and people trust them?

I just don't get it...
 
Jul 22, 2009
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Well with those specific examples...

People don't want to believe that global warming is their fault, cause then they would have to change.
So in a bid to do absolutely nothing, they discredit the people who tell them to change and think only of themselves.

On GM crops... basically their new and they're innovative and they're made by science... therefore it is wrong and scary and to be feared.
But in the interest of a balanced argument. GM crops haven't been tested on long term exposure, so people aren't sure if they can be bad for you in the long run, so people want more tests before they change that to their staple diet.

That just about sums it up.
 

C95J

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Apr 10, 2010
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personally I don't like modified crops either, my family tends to grow our own vegetables.
 

BlumiereBleck

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Cause this is real science!!!
Science is toast, dummies, and SUPER TOAST! [sub]also because global warming cannot be proven as "just started with us" it could have been happening for "millions of years"[/sub]
 

Kpt._Rob

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Apr 22, 2009
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Welcome to politics.

Seriously, even science is political now. I agree with you, believe me, I do, and I think it's sad that science is a political issue now, but unfortunately that is the state of our world.
 

Booze Zombie

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GamesB2 said:
Well with those specific examples...

People don't want to believe that global warming is their fault, cause then they would have to change.
So in a bid to do absolutely nothing, they discredit the people who tell them to change and think only of themselves.

On GM crops... basically their new and they're innovative and they're made by science... therefore it is wrong and scary and to be feared.
But in the interest of a balanced argument. GM crops haven't been tested on long term exposure, so people aren't sure if they can be bad for you in the long run.
I don't mind that they're "made by science", I mind that people will blindly follow the GM craze without proper small-scale testing.

I also personally believe that GM is just some greedy corporations trying to make lots of money for minimal genetic work and lots of PR and I'm also of the opinion that our current knowledge of GM isn't sufficient enough to actually make anything of value we couldn't just cross-breed some plants to get, with the added benefit of it not increasing cancer rates.
 
Jul 22, 2009
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Booze Zombie said:
I don't mind that they're "made by science", I mind that people will blindly follow the GM craze without proper small-scale testing.

I also personally believe that GM is just some greedy corporations trying to make lots of money for minimal genetic work and lots of PR and I'm also of the opinion that our current knowledge of GM isn't sufficient enough to actually make anything of value we couldn't just cross-breed some plants to get, with the added benefit of it not increasing cancer rates.
I think GM crops need to be tested over longer periods of time.

But the main reason behind GM crops is so that farmers in places like Africa who have to live off their own crop can still grow in bad soil. Because they've been modified to grow just as well.

That's what we're meant to believe. I think some companies would love to use them as cheap crops for more profits. But currently the public would tear them apart if they did.

So for now GM crops are being used as intended. For the good of mankind.
 

Booze Zombie

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GamesB2 said:
That's what we're meant to believe. I think some companies would love to use them as cheap crops for more profits. But currently the public would tear them apart if they did.

So for now GM crops are being used as intended. For the good of mankind.
I have seen quite a few reports suggesting that these plants fare no better than their "normal" counter-parts and that this really just quite a simple little scheme to have all of the third world paying through the nose for specially made and patented plants that need patented formulas to live.

We could improve the state of food around the world if we simply used better farming methods, more efficient ones.
We don't have to jump right at splicing the very essence of life to do that...
 

Something Amyss

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Dec 3, 2008
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Booze Zombie said:
Please answer a question for me, people of The Escapist!
Why are people so dismissive of science when it comes to global warming, claiming that they don't trust "those people" but when it comes to "those people" tampering with life it's self, modifying our crops and "making it better for us and able to feed more people" and people trust them?

I just don't get it...
I've never heard of that sort of mindset. I have seen each example. Just not together.
 

Booze Zombie

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Zachary Amaranth said:
I've never heard of that sort of mindset. I have seen each example. Just not together.
I have talked to quite a few people with an odd set of values, pro-nuclear and anti-GM, anti-global warming and pro-GM, that sort of stuff.
 

Julianking93

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Skullkid4187 said:
Cause this is real science!!!




Science is toast, dummies, and SUPER TOAST! [sub]also because global warming cannot be proven as "just started with us" it could have been happening for "millions of years"[/sub]
Right....what he said

I agree though I typically get shit for it :/
 
Jul 22, 2009
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Booze Zombie said:
I have seen quite a few reports suggesting that these plants fare no better than their "normal" counter-parts and that this really just quite a simple little scheme to have all of the third world paying through the nose for specially made and patented plants that need patented formulas to live.

We could improve the state of food around the world if we simply used better farming methods, more efficient ones.
We don't have to jump right at splicing the very essence of life to do that...
I haven't seen said reports but I stopped caring about GM crops a while a go.

I'd say that they mainly try and teach better farming techniques.

But in places where crops just will not grow, they then need to resort to GM crops or move or starve.
 

Booze Zombie

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GamesB2 said:
But in places where crops just will not grow, they then need to resort to GM crops or move or starve.
Problem is, that GM food could simply be borrowed time, slowly killing the people eating them.
I would also argue that the "bio-intensive" farming model would solve most of these problems, it's a method of farming that restores minerals to the earth the crops are sown in, as opposed to depleting them and forcing people to have to replace them constantly.

CJackson95 said:
personally I don't like modified crops either, my family tends to grow our own vegetables.
Good to hear, keeps your money in your pockets... aside from all the farming equipment and such, of course.

But you know what's going into your food, so I wish you the best of continued luck with growing your own.
 
Jul 22, 2009
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Booze Zombie said:
Problem is, that GM food could simply be borrowed time, slowly killing the people eating them.
I would also argue that the "bio-intensive" farming model would solve most of these problems, it's a method of farming that restores minerals to the earth the crops are sown in, as opposed to depleting them and forcing people to have to replace them constantly.
That's why we need more testing time.

Then it becomes full circle D: we need time but we don't have time! POW and I get sleepy and think about toast...

I hope someone less lazy than me figures it all out.
 

thedoclc

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Of course genetically modified foods need proper testing, but then, their mere existence causes some people to have a knee-jerk, no-nothing, don't-want-to-know-nothing reaction. "Of course it's bad," they'll say. And...on what grounds? We humans have been monkeying with the genetics of every species we meet since we started crossbreeding crops for better yields, breeding canines for traits we like, and exterminating species that just didn't like us much. The main difference is now we have better tools for the job, and with increased ability to do that job comes increased potential to royally screw the pooch.

A huge success early in GMO work came in India in the 1960's. Obligatory Wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Revolution

The short version is that the individuals responsible for the introduction of genetically modified rice into Asia in the 1960's are credited with saving approximately, oh, say, -ALL OF INDIA- from famine. And the Philippines. And, come to think of it, most of Asia.

So the option was famine -or- GMO rice. And people chose GMO rice. So if you're willing to condemn the introduction of GMO crops, you must ipso facto state you prefer that on the order of one billion people suffer famine. No two ways about it; the world is what it is. No IR modified rice strains and people starve. Incidentally, poor people in the third word; most of us in the first world have more than sufficient arable land and technology to do without.

So, yes, GMOs need careful testing and management, of course. But let's balance the, "Boo, science!" with the cold, hard truth that human beings are starving, the native crops are not sufficient to feed the populations, and crossbreeding, fertilizers, and outright manipulation of organisms is how human beings have managed to keep themselves fed ever since the first farms. It's also saved countless lives just in the past century.
 

Something Amyss

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Booze Zombie said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
I've never heard of that sort of mindset. I have seen each example. Just not together.
I have talked to quite a few people with an odd set of values, pro-nuclear and anti-GM, anti-global warming and pro-GM, that sort of stuff.
I do know people who believe in Global Warming but not GM crops, though that makes a bit more sense. We have decades of data on climate and not much on genetic modification. Now, some of the ideas they dream up are crazy and far fetched, but the basic premise of being skeptical about something relatively new isn't all that weird. Nor does it necessarily mean they hold mutually exclusive beliefs.

Doesn't sound like the opposite can quite hold true.
 

Booze Zombie

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thedoclc said:
So, yes, GMOs need careful testing and management, of course. But let's balance the, "Boo, science!" with the cold, hard truth that human beings are starving, the native crops are not sufficient to feed the populations, and crossbreeding, fertilizers, and outright manipulation of organisms is how human beings have managed to keep themselves fed ever since the first farms. It's also saved countless lives just in the past century.
Are we talking "in a lab" GM or merely "I cross-bred the strains" GM here, just for clarity?
 

thedoclc

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Booze Zombie said:
thedoclc said:
So, yes, GMOs need careful testing and management, of course. But let's balance the, "Boo, science!" with the cold, hard truth that human beings are starving, the native crops are not sufficient to feed the populations, and crossbreeding, fertilizers, and outright manipulation of organisms is how human beings have managed to keep themselves fed ever since the first farms. It's also saved countless lives just in the past century.
Are we talking "in a lab" GM or merely "I cross-bred the strains" GM here, just for clarity?
There's a difference?

Plants have a curious ability to occasionally cross species boundaries. If you mean, did they insert a gene from another species, the answer is categorically yes. The early work in IR-8, which was sufficient in the 1960s, involved crossing two species of rice which would never have met in the wild in a lab. Later varieties that allowed production to keep up were created using more advanced genetic modification; in the 1960's, there were heavy limits on what could be crossed. An advanced strain which causes rice to create Vitamin A - a shortage of which is a huge source of blindness among hungry populations - is expected in a couple of years. So, essentially, if the technology works, the rice will stop people (read: children) from going blind. Likewise, the journal Science reported less pesticides were needed for many strains. This reduced organophosphate levels in areas, reducing the level of pollution needed to achieve sufficient production. And since organophosphates are demonstrated killers (of careless farmworkers and pests, not the people eating the food!), it also increased the safety of laborers.

Some other huge GMO technologies: having yeast make insulin for our diabetics (a human gene transplanted into yeast strains), having high yield production of early antibiotics (mutate the original fungi until we get a usable strain), toy poodles (selective breeding for thousands of years to produce a useless animal), etc. It's all genetic manipulation.

What people need to do is start learning about real progress and problems in both climate change - your original point - as well as food production. Consider the Terminator Gene. The short version is that a company (Monsanto, I think, a bunch of real bastards) developed a gene which would enable their seeds to have a one-cycle expectancy. In other words, you had to buy your seeds from them if you wanted the superior strain. This was trumpeted as a safety feature (they can't survive more than a year in the wild, so they can't mess up the natural world). Of course, Monsanto was also thinking of its bottom line; very few farmers in the third world really are afraid of lawsuits and would gladly share seeds which increased the yield. Monsanto was protecting their cash cow.

Naturally, the company wouldn't develop the high yield seeds for free; if they don't make a profit, the seeds are never developed. Yet their method of enforcement was so galling the controversy essentially shut the whole thing down. It wasn't possible to weigh in on what should be done to protect the work of those who do create new organisms because everyone and their brother "knew" the answer. Rational discussion was impossible.
 

Booze Zombie

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thedoclc said:
Quoety stuff
Monsanto are my main grievance with GM food, they do the bare minimum of genetic alteration, give it a load of PR spin and call it a miracle and grease the palms of any officials standing in their way.
They're patenting slightly modified life for fun and profit.

If GM food is taken up solely as a non-business venture and instead for the betterment of our planet and species, I wouldn't be opposed to it as much as I am now.
But Monsanto exists and they're utter fucks.
 

Mechsoap

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people fear anything new and anything that could prove to be their fault, wich is why its should not be done in their eyes...