Sony Boss: Don't "Shove Something Down a Consumer's Throat"

FieryTrainwreck

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Ultratwinkie said:
I sorta saw the Planetside 2 gun issue as drastically over-informing your point of view. I can sympathize with your frustration, but I don't think it's sensible to extrapolate an entire console-wide ideology from what is (next to Microsoft's parade of disrespect for the consumer) a relatively isolated incident.

I don't think our only options are submit to the will of publishers or crash the industry. I think PC gaming is healthier than you think. I think that the advent of mobile gaming, social gaming, casual gaming, etc. have created a lot more gray area in development, and I see no reason why I couldn't retreat to one of those spheres in the event that console gaming or AAA publishing suddenly goes away. In fact, we'd probably see expansion in those areas, in terms of game complexity and scope, in order to attract the "hardcore gamer refugees".

All in all, things are more fluid now. Digital distribution is a game changer. Casual gaming and mobile gaming are game changers. There are a lot of places for people to go play games now, and it's a lot easier for someone with the drive and ambition to develop to also self-publish or otherwise go it alone.

Gaming isn't going to disappear when EA, Activision, Ubisoft, and the rest of the ill-run dinosaurs do. I can see why they'd want us to think that, though.
 

viranimus

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Nov 20, 2009
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Sony does not belive in forcing things down a consumers throat?

SWEET!!!! About time.

So when do they roll out the patch reversing "no civil lawsuits", enabling software backwards compat, and restoring "install OS" function for the PS3 so I can go back to support them?
 

FalloutJack

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Nov 20, 2008
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Legion said:
They were planning the launch since 2008 and nobody thought it was a good idea to suggest revealing what the console looked like upon it's announcement? That's kind of worrying really.

If Microsoft hadn't screwed their announcement up people would still be mocking the PS4's original announcement to this day.
After the whole PS3 thing, they must've wanted to take extra care.
 

MCerberus

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Well Sony, that's great that you don't want underhanded borderline-insane stuff shoved down consumer throats.
You movie division still seeding movies so you can sue random people?
 

zalithar

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risenbone said:
Well if the PS3 is anything to go by then Sony don't just shove things down the consumers throat. First they crow bar it in and then use a sledge hammer to ram it into every orrifice the consumer has. Everything the Xbone was going to do at launch the PS4 has the capability to do (In terms of the online DRM) it's just the PS4 won't do it right away but give it a few years and several firmware updates and the PS4 will have everything the Xbone originally said it would.
Just stop. Your argument is invalid on several levels the most significant of which being; Argument From Silence, using the absence of evidence as evidence. Followed closely by; Common Sense Fallacy, 'I don't see this as true therefore it is not.'
Either your wrong and permanently damage your reputation; or your right and when you gloat people call you an asshole. Just don't walk that line, it's not worth it.
 

Infernal Lawyer

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FieryTrainwreck said:
Ultratwinkie said:
snip Planetside 2 snip
For the love of God, and here I was wondering what game it was Ultratwinkie was banging on about. Apparently the only person who didn't know what he was going on about was me :(

OT: This is... good, I guess? Common sense prevails and all that? :/ Meanwhile Nintendo sits in the corner and wonders why the hell Sony is getting all the praise for not trying to screw over everyone.

Yes, I'm a fanboy. Deal with it <3
 

FieryTrainwreck

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Infernal Lawyer said:
For the love of God, and here I was wondering what game it was Ultratwinkie was banging on about. Apparently the only person who didn't know what he was going on about was me :(
I had to suss it out, too. Never played Planetside 2 myself, no idea what Ultratwinkie is specifically talking about, but it sounds like a pay-to-win mechanic rearing its head in an otherwise F2P game. That's frustrating, for sure, but I expect those kinds of shenanigans from F2P - especially one without a strong cosmetic aspect. As a business model, it seems heavily reliant on people dropping coin for aesthetic customization. FPS gamers don't seem to care much about anything that doesn't put holes in people more effectively. Still, if I'm reading the situation correctly, I'd probably be more than a little miffed at Sony, too.

OT: This is... good, I guess? Common sense prevails and all that? :/ Meanwhile Nintendo sits in the corner and wonders why the hell Sony is getting all the praise for not trying to screw over everyone.

Yes, I'm a fanboy. Deal with it <3
Nintendo fans make sense, imo. They know what they want, they know who can give it them, and there's no better or equivalent alternative. I'd say they catch flak because it would be sorta nice if they gave you a platform for all the latest first party goodness AND a full-fledged next-gen console at the same time. If Sony is getting all the praise, it might be because they're trying to provide the most cutting edge hardware without also implementing anti-consumer bullshit.
 

Strazdas

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May 28, 2011
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I wasnt going to comment but damn, Ultrawinkie seems to be spewing hatred for whole PlayStation existence based solely on the fact that a single game developers cannot balance their game? are you freaking seriuos? PLanetside developer is dictating whole industry trends? And yeah, Xbox has no unbalanced games right? nto to mention you completely sway away non-console markets as irrelevant.
Speaking of which, there is a quote i often use when talking about developement, and that still stands true for every sucesful game:
"I'd rather have my players annoyed than bored".
 

Strazdas

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Ultratwinkie said:
Strazdas said:
I wasnt going to comment but damn, Ultrawinkie seems to be spewing hatred for whole PlayStation existence based solely on the fact that a single game developers cannot balance their game? are you freaking seriuos? PLanetside developer is dictating whole industry trends? And yeah, Xbox has no unbalanced games right? nto to mention you completely sway away non-console markets as irrelevant.
Speaking of which, there is a quote i often use when talking about developement, and that still stands true for every sucesful game:
"I'd rather have my players annoyed than bored".
I used it as an example, people asked about it and I explained what it was and what happened. The debate went on a tangent of explaining it and the role of publishers than actual debate on sony. The point I was originally trying to make is that just because sony didn't put DRM on a console doesn't mean the industry is suddenly saved, so any boasting on DRM doesn't hold any weight no mattr how many times they bring it up. A point that others have already said. People took that as an offense and are trying to "defend" Sony's "honor" even if the point was as obvious as hell.

It seems if you imply Sony doesn't own and direct the entire console market after E3, everyone loses their minds.
Fair enough as far as example goes. As i dont play planetside, i didnt knew about it. indeed you made the point that Sony inst angel saviuor, however then went into a ran of how "Evil" sony is and how "sheep" we are for liking it more than its competitor even though there is a clear advantage for us for liking it more than Microsoft. the consumer is also greedy and seeks maximum profit everywhere. supporting what Sony does right now is profitable for consumer, so it does that. Industry isnt suddenly saved, and noone claims that. They do however, and rightfully so, celebrate that the status quo was kept instead of going the direction that would bring less benefits to the consumer. Them not having DRM have weight and you seem to think that weight means they are saving a consumer, when in reality that weight is simply corporate advantage over Microsoft. and corporate advantage comes from providing a service consumers like more.
Sony does not own entire console market, however from the people who were going to buy a console this christmas, majority will be buying Playstation, because it benefits them as a consumer to do so.
 

Strazdas

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Ultratwinkie said:
I said Sony was no different from any other company out there. It wasn't a charity, its the same company it was during this generation, and it was doing the same things the others were. The same things gamers complained about.

Since they aren't the defender of gamers, they won't try and stop DRM if it seeps in from third parties. In fact, they can't or risk burning bridges with the fewer and fewer publishers that can stay in business. If they burn bridges, they run the risk of publishers not making any games for that system, a kiss of death for a console.

You say its evil, I say its realistic. They either play ball with the industry or their console dies like the many that came before it. As brutal as that sounds, that's the kind of mentality businesses use.

Although I can see why you think that, the guy I was talking with decided to delete his posts.
Except that it wasnt doing the same things gamers complained about Xbox is doing.

They will try and maybe even suceed in stopping at least some forms of DRM. why? because thats beneficial to them. Gamers dont like DRM, this is quite clear. So if they got a system that does not have DRM, they will choose that over the other all else equal. Therefore, stopping DRM will actually bring them costumers, which is profit for them.
And publishers wont dare to burn bridges. After the backlast Xbox had and their attempts to isolate Nintendo away there is no market left for them to sell us those yearly 60 dollar games. There is PC you say, yeah, and see how much publishers like it if they plan to "Start porting" after 3 years?

Their console wont die because they wont play ball with the industry. because not playing ball is exactly what got them superior sales at this very moment. it is profitable for them not to play ball, and as long as that remains so, they wont.

I saw FieryTrainwreck posts before they got deleted (it seems they did now, why i wonder), so that was not interacting my perception.
 

Flames66

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How about we stop insulting our customers by calling them "consumers". Yea, that'd be great.

masticina said:
Again Sony is not really doing anything much... that means neither BAD nor GOOD. They are kinda waiting out what is going to happen and the are letting others like Microsoft make the big mistakes.

But are they defenders of gamers.. no far no! They only reason they are so "nice" right now is because they have looked at Microsoft.

Again the same people who wanted the Xbox One DRM in place [aka EA, Activision and I expect Bioware] also talked to Sony.

Just because Sony didn't give in doesn't means they are the heroes of gamers. Instead they just waited to see what the market was doing and how far they could push things.
This looks about right. I won't be buying any consoles as I'm perfectly happy with my PC, but if I did I wouldn't be getting either of the big AAA ones.
 

Strazdas

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Ultratwinkie said:
I said it was the same this generation, and there are traces of it almost doing what the xbox was doing but was dropped. It became obvious that blatant DRM doesn't really work in that fashion, but low profile DRM does.

Low profile DRM is known very well in this generation. In fact, gamers have been proven to buy things if its hyped enough. Its been proven before. If gamers really hated DRM, everything EA would have made wouldn't have made a profit. In fact, Diablo wouldn't have sold as much as it did. The general population doesn't really seem to care, they surely haven't before.
The general population see the market in this way: what do i gain if i sign up for DRM. the only DRM that worked, is the one thatgave its users a lot in return ( see: steam). Diablo is quite poor example really, since the game is a ghost town now. There arep robably more Diablo 2 palyers than diablo 3 by now. I doubt you can call that sucess.
And EA isnt the one with most DRM. its ubisoft and activision. though Sim City did bring EA close. i know its fashionable to hit on EA at every turn, but there are worse gaming publsihers out there.

Publishers can easily play hard ball and isolate your console, you can't afford that to happen. Sure some gamers would praise it, but at the end of the day its all game library numbers and exclusives.
One word: Nintendo
No, but, seriuosly, publishers will not be stupid enough to avoid the most popular console this generation if they want to stay profitable with their bloated budgets. it simply wont work if Sony keeps the ration of users as it has now and refuses to implement DRM publishers will have no choice but to play ball with sonys rules. dont underestimate the power of a huge userbase.

Its also a very poor general public now, so they can't afford to support a console that won't get support.
Im sorry, this is 2013, would you stop blaming the 2008 crysis for everything by now?

So publishers really could kill a platform if they really wanted to.
yes, but it would be as profitable to them as a person who jumps in front of a car. sure you may havei nconvienienced the driver that was an ass, but you suicided in the process.

Keep in mind the cost that goes into hardware like this and how Sony is having some financial issues with its divisions means Sony can't last long if the publishers banded together and wanted them gone. Its a big gamble for them to really stand up against DRM.
Xbox division was reporting a loss all the way till 2010 and it is still a net loss (meaning the whole project as a whole, even ignoring inflation, is a complete failure from investors perspective). and yet they stand.

The safest route would be to not have DRM on console, but allow third party DRM. Which they obviously would do.
they already said that they do not have any DRM support but pulishers can do as they pelase, exatly the same way they did with PS3 - as in we aint changing anything toward publishers.

like you siad yourself, the more people that you sell console games to, the more profit you get, thus it is in fact profitable to stand agaisnt DRM.
you significantly overeastinate the bargaining power of publishers.
 

Strazdas

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Ultratwinkie said:
You think that everyone is suddenly okay now? Analysts have said time and time again customers are still scared to put money down on big items. Just because the crisis isn't happening doesn't mean everyone magically turned confident and rich.

And the fact publishers could also die brings a new issue. Who will make the games? Consoles need support day one or risk being unprofitable. If publishers go, they end up taking the games they would have made with them until other companies could scrounge up to afford it. Consoles cannot afford to lose any games or hope that someone will replace it quickly. These are huge companies, it will take a long time for another to take its place. In fact, it may never be replaced because PC gaming has kneecapped consoles when it comes to developer attractiveness. WHo would really want to make expensive games for consoles when you can make cheap and profitable games on PC? Its a game of chicken to be sure, it only remains to be seen who breaks first.

First party publishing wouldn't really work, you wouldn't be able to turn out the required games to keep your console afloat. You spent money, made little money, and hope your console debts can be paid off. Doesn't work that way.

When publishers isolate a platform, they aren't there for money. They are there for blood and to destroy an entire platform. They would find many ways to make people jump. If activision said "no call of duty" on the playstation when call of duty started to get really popular, the playstation would have been severely hobbled.

lack of DRM takes a backseat to games. Its the reason Origin has any users at all. So yes publishers could starve them out.
Of course not. there was no time in human history when "Everyone was okay". Yes, they are scared to take huge loans they wont be able to pay. i call that a good thing. maybe we can root the "living on a loan" type of life a bit. but thats a different topic. The crysis is over, you can stop blaming it for everything.

Publishers are not even making games nor are they essential to making games. they are the middleman between game studio and the consumer. one that in ever digitalizing matrket become more and more obsolete, so they fight tooth and nail to deny us the ability to control our purchases and contact with developers. we saw them suceed in musci industry, we can see them suceeding in movie industry, but we dont have to let them suceed in gaming.
the developers themself have often stated they got no interest in DRM or console wars and would be much more open on releasing it on a DRM free console. and lets not ignore all the independant and upcoming developers. sore most of them dont make AAA games, but do i really need to point out at Star Citizen and Minecraft again?

Consoles can afford to loose some games if that means their other games will sell to a much larger (judging from preorders 3 times higher at least) audience. as you said, they are big companies, and they can cover some loses if that means lots more profit in the future. heck, Microsoft has been doing just that for the last 10 years. and Sony completely ate up the failure of PS3 sales and havent gone bancrupt. Micorosft and Sony have huge part of thier business in other things than gaming, and as such they can easily cover the console loses if they see a future cash cow. and having a huge audience is a cash cow.

And as you say yourself PC is mroe attractive to developers and more profitable, then why doesnt the big companies go there? answer is simple - audience. consoles have more of it. (although to be frank i wish to see the day when PC goes back to being on top, but thats subjectivity)

First party has kept nintedo afloat, so you cant really spin this argument.

Call of duty, as much as it riled up on the internet, isnt actually that huge. FOr example god of war 3 sold more copies than all COD games combined on PS3. PC sales, who are praised as a "Shooter platform" is in fact dominated by The Sims. And it cant even come clsoe to scraching the sale fogures of big nintendo franchises. it may be the largest FPS, but it isnt as internet makes it out to be. WOW has more players than COD sold copies. Sure there would be fanatics. i know a person who bought a PS3 only for Last of Us. but they arent that numerous. as you said yourself, the average gamer doesnt care that much.

Origin was a smart push becasue it came with extremely anticipated game, and some people valued the game mroe than their freedom. however you cant really call Origin a sucess with what userbase it has and even those are the people who are forced into it by the publishers and never really use the "origin services" other tha "shut up and allow me to play the game".