Sony May Add Backward Compatibility to the PS4

DrOswald

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Cid SilverWing said:
I don't seem to be hearing anything about being BC with PS3 titles, or is that a given?
The PS4 is not powerful enough to run a PS3 emulator, for complicated reasons. This is why they are going to be offering PS3 cloud steaming instead.
 

jericu

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My question is, is this "backwards compatibility" of the sort that only lets you play download titles? Or proper backwards compatibility, where I can pop my copy of, say... Kingdom Hearts into my PS4 and play it off disc?

Either is awesome, mind, but the latter is what would really push me over the edge, personally.
 

GonzoGamer

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DrOswald said:
The problem is that the PS3 is not nearly powerful enough to provide satisfactory emulation of PS2 games. Maybe PS1 games, but certainly not PS2. The PS4, being about as powerful as a modern midgrade pc, should be powerful enough for software emulation of the PS2 with only minor problems.
I understand that but I think the real problem is that they built the ps3 all backwards-ass; the same reason we kept getting crappy ports. The 360 could still play a lot of xb games.
Like I said, it didn't deter me from buying a ps3 (the monthly fee did it for the ps4&xbone) but I know people who did say 'fuck-it' at that point.
 

DrOswald

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GonzoGamer said:
DrOswald said:
The problem is that the PS3 is not nearly powerful enough to provide satisfactory emulation of PS2 games. Maybe PS1 games, but certainly not PS2. The PS4, being about as powerful as a modern midgrade pc, should be powerful enough for software emulation of the PS2 with only minor problems.
I understand that but I think the real problem is that they built the ps3 all backwards-ass; the same reason we kept getting crappy ports. The 360 could still play a lot of xb games.
Like I said, it didn't deter me from buying a ps3 (the monthly fee did it for the ps4&xbone) but I know people who did say 'fuck-it' at that point.
The Xbox 360 could play a number of XBox games, but it did not really emulate the XBox. It kind of did, but that emulator was so bad that it actually could not play any games. What was actually going on was that the 360 team would take that completely inadequate emulator and use it as a starting point to create a game specific emulator that would run that specific game correctly. (this is not exactly right, but it is close enough for our purposes.) This had to be performed for each game. Sometimes one games emulator would allow other games to also work at a near perfect level, in which case those games would be added to the list (this is why there are so many backwards compatible Cabela's titles, they were all basically the same thing from a program point of view.)

It is easy to make an efficient and "accurate" emulator for 1 game - you can just spot fix all the things that don't quite work right. But it isn't really emulation as we typically mean it - only one piece of software will work on this emulator. If the goal is to bring the massive PS2 library to the new console, you need a true emulator. And strange architecture or not, both the PS3 and 360 were not up to the task of emulating their progenitor. Had the goal been to spot fix the most popular titles it could have been relatively easily achieved, as it was in the case of the X360.
 

Sniper Team 4

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I'm interested. If this works, if it turns out to be true, I will go out and buy a PS4 the very next day. Okay, maybe not that quick because I bet they need to work out some bugs, but if it comes to pass, I am there.
 

FPLOON

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Alright, then... AFTER you release a list of which games would work "best" via compatibility would I decide to buy a PS4 before deciding to buy said PS4 for X amount of games released for said system at that given moment...

Nonetheless, I'm watching you, Sony... like a hawk at 1080p resolution...
 

Ghadente

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Bottom line (for me): if it can't allow me to take the physical game discs (PS3/Ps2/Ps1), that I paid for and have a tower of, and play them in the PS4, then it doesn't help 1 bit.
I would have shelled out for the PS4 without hesitation if it was backwards compatible, at least for PS3 games. As it stands now i have tons of games still left to finish so getting an entire new system that won't allow me to play them seems like a waste for now. It is kinda a slap in the face to anyone who has bought all their games on discs. If someone's PS3 goes up and needs a new one, instead of being able to upgrade to PS4 they still would have to buy another PS3.
<3 playstation/SONY and kudos to the PS4 success, but incredibly disappointed that the PS4 is not backwards compatible. May eventually get one when i have finished most of the games on my shelves, and/or a price drop in the system.
 

Charli

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It's like no one on their teams ever adequately explain properly why having backward compatibility is so useful for consoles. (at least for their first two years where their libraries are embarrassingly slim)

And Sony just went 'oh...yeah right...the games...those thousands of games we have on prior systems that first time buyers to our franchise might be interested in...those ones'.

'Errr woops. Better look into that while all the studios making the brand new games take the necessary time to get used to our hardware and make a jaw dropping current gen graphics game that'll likely take years.'

Seriously.
 

Neta

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DrOswald said:
Cid SilverWing said:
I don't seem to be hearing anything about being BC with PS3 titles, or is that a given?
The PS4 is not powerful enough to run a PS3 emulator, for complicated reasons. This is why they are going to be offering PS3 cloud steaming instead.
Why "emulate" it at all? Why not just have the original 8 year old software programmed into the console as well?
 

Strazdas

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So they are stealing somones emulator and putting them inside the PS4? (because since emulation is not technically legal noone can actually complain). and then they only support some of the titles and im willing to bet its going to be "you must buy then again" type of deal.
 

SeventhSigil

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Strazdas said:
So they are stealing somones emulator and putting them inside the PS4? (because since emulation is not technically legal noone can actually complain). and then they only support some of the titles and im willing to bet its going to be "you must buy then again" type of deal.
Um... where does it say that whatever emulation software comes into play for this would have been stolen from someone else? o_O It's entirely possible they're designing their own emulator to fit into the PS4.

It's a serious question, I'm just curious if you've come across any report that they're ripping off a pre-existing emulator, or if you're just making the assumption for personal reasons.
 

Strazdas

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SeventhSigil said:
Um... where does it say that whatever emulation software comes into play for this would have been stolen from someone else? o_O It's entirely possible they're designing their own emulator to fit into the PS4.

It's a serious question, I'm just curious if you've come across any report that they're ripping off a pre-existing emulator, or if you're just making the assumption for personal reasons.
It doesnt. but in previuos announcements they said they are looking at existing emulators and ability to incorporate them into PS4, meanwhile why would you build one from ground up when you can take already working one?
 

SeventhSigil

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Strazdas said:
SeventhSigil said:
Um... where does it say that whatever emulation software comes into play for this would have been stolen from someone else? o_O It's entirely possible they're designing their own emulator to fit into the PS4.

It's a serious question, I'm just curious if you've come across any report that they're ripping off a pre-existing emulator, or if you're just making the assumption for personal reasons.
It doesnt. but in previuos announcements they said they are looking at existing emulators and ability to incorporate them into PS4, meanwhile why would you build one from ground up when you can take already working one?
True, but would that even work? As far as I know, most existing emulators are designed to run on a specific platform, be it Windows, Mac, etc, or have platform-specific versions. I can't help but wonder whether the same basic differences in a platform's particulars that would prevent someone from running a Windows-based PS2 emulator on, say, Linux, would keep Sony from just carrying a PS2 emulator over to their console. At least not without tearing apart the interface and reworking it to fit with the PS4's operating system and hardware.

I'd have to get input from a techie. xD Ironically, the source code for PCSX2 emulator is freely available on their own site, but I wouldn't be able to make heads or tails of whether the Mac version emulator has any notable coding differences from the Windows version. =P
 

FalloutJack

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Well, Sony, I DID mention that backwards-compatibility was important. Maybe you should've listened in the first place. In retrospect, this would have probably doubled the amount of consoles you've sold by now, so let's see you pull this off and recup the loss, hmm?
 

Strazdas

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SeventhSigil said:
True, but would that even work? As far as I know, most existing emulators are designed to run on a specific platform, be it Windows, Mac, etc, or have platform-specific versions. I can't help but wonder whether the same basic differences in a platform's particulars that would prevent someone from running a Windows-based PS2 emulator on, say, Linux, would keep Sony from just carrying a PS2 emulator over to their console. At least not without tearing apart the interface and reworking it to fit with the PS4's operating system and hardware.

I'd have to get input from a techie. xD Ironically, the source code for PCSX2 emulator is freely available on their own site, but I wouldn't be able to make heads or tails of whether the Mac version emulator has any notable coding differences from the Windows version. =P
PS4 is using a x86 bit architecture. Basically a 32-bit PC. The most popular platform for software. Most emulators use that already. so yes, its very likely it would just work. They may have to change it to support whatever wrong they done with their OS if they did it but thats about that.

Its unlikely that such emulator will use the complex version specific features as that would be quite pointless considering they are emulating the old features of the consoles and have their own little engines to run them.

FalloutJack said:
Well, Sony, I DID mention that backwards-compatibility was important. Maybe you should've listened in the first place. In retrospect, this would have probably doubled the amount of consoles you've sold by now, so let's see you pull this off and recup the loss, hmm?
what loses? Sony is the leading console seller with record breaking sales all over. And PS3 backward compatibility still is not a possibility, which is what people were asking for to begin with.
 

Madame_Lawliet

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This would certainly be a smart move on my part, my PS4 has been just sitting there collecting dust for months, and some backwards compatibility might just be the thing to remedy that.
 

conmag9

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I don't actually care all that much about upgrading them to 1080p. That's nice and all, but I'm more concerned about whether it can actually emulate basically all of them. If that's the case, I will be very pleased with Sony and the decision will probably cement my desire to buy a PS4.

It's rare to have a pleasant surprise about functionality in consoles. Usually it's all about slightly better graphics this or a bit more space that (although at least the latter is actually quite nice). True functionality increases, doing something it couldn't do before, makes me smile a bit.

Never heard of this VR initiative. Will have to listen for more on that.
 

Roxas1359

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Neta said:
Why "emulate" it at all? Why not just have the original 8 year old software programmed into the console as well?
It would cost to much to do so. Software isn't the only issue when it comes to emulation, the hardware plays a factor as well. In the case of PS3 games, there is no emulator that can do PS3 games at this time, and so the only way to play PS3 games on the PS4 would have been to put an actual PS3 inside the PS4, and that didn't work too well when they tried that with the PS2 inside of PS3's back when PS2 emulation was still new and highly buggy. The thing about Sony systems is that multiple parts are running simultaneously when playing the game, and some of these parts aren't present in other systems. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if we were to start seeing PS3 emulators that work in probably 3 or 4 years, but as of now none exist that work. It's a similar situation for Microsoft with the Xbox 360, as no emulators exist yet, and probably not for a while.

The only reason Nintendo is easily able to do it is because they are still using GameCube hardware for Optical Discs and their drives, only they've been slightly modified. It's why the Wii U can play Wii games so easily (technically it can also play GCN, but that's another issue) and why the Wii could easily play GameCube games. When people called the Wii 2 GameCubes stuck together as a joke, they were partly right because the Wii was still using some of the same tech as the GameCube. Same thing with the 3DS, all it is is a modified Nintendo DS/DSi card slot, which is why all DS games, even imports, work on the 3DS despite it being region locked. Now there are pros and cons to using the same tech, the pros obviously are very good backwards compatibility and cost saving. The cons though can be big, as since it's only just slightly modified tech it's easier to hack. Hell the Wii U has already been hacked up the wazoo thanks to the backdoor that Wii-mode provides, and the fact that people can still install Homebrew Channel on their Wii U's show that nothing was changed at all really.
 

DrOswald

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Neta said:
DrOswald said:
Cid SilverWing said:
I don't seem to be hearing anything about being BC with PS3 titles, or is that a given?
The PS4 is not powerful enough to run a PS3 emulator, for complicated reasons. This is why they are going to be offering PS3 cloud steaming instead.
Why "emulate" it at all? Why not just have the original 8 year old software programmed into the console as well?
I am not sure I understand what you are saying. I am going to assume you mean porting the old games to the new system.

Well, that would involve partially reprogramming each game over again for the new system. This is something Sony cannot do for a number of reasons including the fact it would cost a ton of money and they don't own the rights/code to every game. In addition, it would not allow you to use your old discs. The idea here is that Sony wants you to be able to play your old PS games on their new system. Any game, including the ones they have no control over. If you own the disc, they want you to be able to play it on the PS4. This is not possible for the PS3, but they can make it happen for the PS1 and PS2.

Let me know if I did not understand.

Edit:

Ok, I thought about it for a little bit and I think I get what you are trying to say.

This is going to get a bit technical, but I will try to keep it as simple as possible. This means I will probably be quite inaccurate, but it will be close enough to illustrate the point.

A computer works by software sending instructions to the hardware which the hardware then executes. These can be things like "x = 2+2" or "draw a triangle". The instructions sent are not so simple as that, and can be more accurately pictured as a stream of 0's and 1's sent to the processor - something we could never understand and does not inherently mean what we intend it to. The processor interprets this stream of 0's and 1's by how it was constructed. How the processor interprets these instructions is know as it's architecture.

A piece of software must be built for a specific architecture. If you attempt to use a piece of software on a type of architecture it was not meant to be used on it will not work. It will essentially send nonsense to the hardware. This is done by compiling/building the software - translating the human understandable instructions like "draw a triangle" into computer understandable and architecture specific instructions. This is why ports are possible without completely reprogramming the game. A typical programming language will be able to be complied into a number of different languages for use. Compiled code cannot be easily translated back into human readable code.

The PS3 hardware was built using what is known as "cell" architecture. This particular architecture has certain advantages but is also very different from the standard "x86" architecture used by most PC's today and by the PS4. Instructions made for cell architecture cannot be interpreted by x86 architecture. This is why PS3 software cannot readily be made to work on the PS4 - they are fundamentally different machines.

Sony could recompile and release individual software on the PS4, but this is actually much harder and expensive than it sounds. Console software is designed to work with a specific piece of hardware. It would likely need significant reprogramming to make it work on another piece of hardware, even more powerful hardware. In addition, Sony would not be able to do this with with all games - they only own some of them.

This is where emulation comes in. Sony wants us to be able to use the old software compiled for the old hardware on the new hardware. As I said, old discs working in the new system. In order to do this, you need to trick the new hardware into acting like the old hardware. This is much harder than it sounds. It takes immensely more powerful hardware to accurately emulate a old piece of hardware.

(To give an idea of how hard accurate emulation is: A perfect Pong emulator exists. However, consumer grade hardware is not yet powerful enough to run it at the original frame rate. A typical high end gamer PC could run this emulator at around 5 fps, last time I checked.)

Because perfect emulation is practically impossible, amateurs typically shoot for good enough emulation; an emulator that can run the most popular old software without game breaking bugs. Sony is shooting for near perfect, commercial level emulation. Emulation so good that only minor bugs will show up in virtually any title. This is one way to achieve software backwards compatibility, and is really the only economically viable way to do it for an entire back library of software. The problem is that the PS4 really is not capable of this level of emulation for the PS3. Like I said, it just is not powerful enough. In fact, I am surprised they think they can pull off this level of emulation with PS2 games.

The other option besides software backwards compatibility is hardware backwards compatibility. Basically, put a PS3 in every PS4. This would greatly increase the cost of producing every unit, and that cost would be passed onto the consumer in one way or another. Generally a bad idea, and this was one of the big reasons for "$599 US dollars" back when the PS3 launched. If I understand correctly, each of the original PS3's had a mini PS2 shoved in there.