South Park As A Gated Community

[Paradoxrifts]

And here I am thinking that collectively we could never ever have enough people who are willing to play the role of devil's advocate in good faith, even when it is profoundly uncomfortable to do so. No, I'm afraid South Park is as relevant as ever to the dangers of overdosing on the kool-aid, and losing all touch of prospective on the issues that rob us of all sense of reason.

 

[Agayek]

Even if Conservatives said that Government can't solve anything correctly it would still be a lie, because we have evidence that it can, they've seen it and yet they still say they can't solve problems correctly.

What you're saying is that I need to have an open mind about viewpoints even if there is all kinds of evidence proving that a particular viewpoint is incorrect. That makes no sense. If a Conservative said that the earth is flat, should I keep an open mind about that?

When Conservatives say Liberals hate rich people, does that mean rich Liberals hate themselves or are Conservatives just lying? It's stuff like that, that pisses us off and I don't know how you expect me to keep an open mind.

No, my point is that you need to accept that you might be the one in the wrong, and when presented with alternatives, you should examine what you believe, the arguments for and against, the new perspective, the arguments for and against, and how it all meshes with the facts, then modify your beliefs accordingly.

And yes, you should absolutely keep an open mind about everything. If, like in your example, someone said the earth is flat, you should acknowledge it as a point of view, compare it to the evidence and facts, then make a judgment on the validity of it. Things that, on the surface, seem utterly ludicrous, unintuitive, and completely wrong can, in fact, be the truth (for example, the duck-billed platypus really is a mammal, despite the fact that it's the only one that lays eggs), and you should never dismiss anything out of hand. Look at it, and if it does not match the facts, then you can dismiss it.

Anything less is limiting yourself and your growth rather severely.

Edit: You're getting stuck on the Conservatives vs Liberals part of your argument, which is blinding you to the larger sentiment. This isn't about politics (though it very, very much needs to apply there). It's about belief systems and worldviews in general.

 

[BeoW0lfe]

All right children! Let's do this!

First of all, I like Bob. I work in a movie theater and take most of my recommendations from his reviews. His Big Picture shows are mostly great. But this was a bad article. Professionalism and side taking are like toothpaste and orange juice in my opinion. They don't mix.

One side is never completely right. One side is never completely wrong. The message SP sends (in my own opinion) is to take the points of each "side" and pick and choose like you're at a buffet. For example:

IN MY OPINION:

The "Conservatives" Have Right:

The Government is actually bloated, ineffectual, and destroying america's financial credibility.

Welfare should be regulated. I, John Q. Taxpayer, should not have to pay to support Shaniqua D. Babymomma having three more children and a bag of weed. However, I DO want to support Jane S. Outtaluck who just lost their job. I don't owe anyone, but Welfare has a purpose.

The Constitution is actually sacred. You may have my gun from my cold dead fingers.

The Police are for solving crimes and punishing lawbreakers. THEY ARE NOT CRIME PREVENTERS. We live in a free society. I am free to break the law, but not to escape the punishments. There is a difference that many liberals do not understand.

Illegal immigrants do not have (legal rights, they still have human rights) rights. They do not "Deserve" citizenship, medical care or protection. They chose the incorrect way to enter a country.

The "Liberals" Have Right

Keep your religion to yourself. I do not need your religious creation MYTH stated as fact in my/my children's science classes.

Your religion can have laws over your own life, however this is a Democracy, not a Theocracy, and because "God says no to gay marriage and abortion" does not mean that it should be law.

People should not be judged on race, gender, sexuality, religion... etc. However, this also applies to (oh god say it isn't so!) white heterosexual males.


Again, these are entirely my opinion, but there is a point to this. South Park does have a viewpoint that Bob accurately described as "everyone is equally wrong" but his approach in the article is wrong. Liberals are not the crying babe, they are the parent who believes that the baby is entitled to cry loudly in a public space. The BOTH deserved to be slapped. (the parent not the kid) Additionally, to reiterate what some others have said, rein in the hypocrisy. Bob has excellent points on most occasions, but when you let your political ideology bleed through into your writings, you discredit yourself somewhat.



TL;DR
The baby wasn't the liberal, the parent who wasn't doing anything was. So the slappings were equally justified.
No "side" has it all right, but if you take the points of each side that have merit, you can actually "stay in the middle" and make progress. And on the hypocritical note, Once you have ripped Family Guy a new as$hole for comparing the republicans to nazis, then you have my permission to mock South Park.

 

[Ihateregistering1]

Can the Government solve all problems? Of course not. Can the Government do bad things? Absolutely, but Governments have and will solve problems, you just never hear Conservatives say that.

Conservatives also say that the "free market" will solve our problems, which is another lie, because the "free market" isn't going to stop wildfires from spreading, solve murders and crimes, fix the infrastructure, feed the poor, defend the country, keep the air and water clean, provide affordable health care, and a whole slew of other problems.

When Conservatives stop saying the Government is causing all our problems and that the free market will fix our problems, and lying about many other things, people will stop hating them.

This is actually the kind of thinking that South Park tends to lambast, to be honest. The obstinate refusal that the other side might actually have a point is the thing they tend to mock the most frequently.

Case in point: none of that is necessarily a lie. There's most certainly a grain of truth to it, though how much is up for debate. From what I understand, the attitude toward the government you're railing about is less about "the government doesn't solve anything!" and more "the government doesn't solve anything correctly!". The view is that governments are gigantic moneysinks mired in bureaucracy and inefficiency and can't get anything meaningful done in a reasonable time frame, and that private enterprise is a much better alternative for getting such.

Which leads to the second point you brought up. The logic behind the free market is that if someone wants something, they will be willing to pay for it, and if they are willing to pay for it, someone will show up to collect that pay. Therefore, as long as people exist in a society, there will be people willing to pay for road upkeep, police services, etc, and that someone will establish organizations to handle that, if only to make money off it. And they'd then have to do a good job or someone else would come by with a better service at the same or lower price and people would start using that.

Now, the real-world practicality of this is very much in question. From anecdotal evidence and some applied logic, it doesn't really seem likely to work out that well in practice, as the realities of life make many such services a necessity and therefore the laws of free economics stop applying properly (ex. the American healthcare system). But that's far from conclusive proof and I neither know nor care enough to really dive in deep to examine it in greater detail.

It's mostly irrelevant to my point anyway, which is mostly that dismissing the other side just because they disagree is asinine and (should be) a crime against humanity. Your beliefs can only become more complete and well-rounded by being challenged, and one should take every opportunity to question what you believe to be true. It's the only way to grow as a person.

Even if Conservatives said that Government can't solve anything correctly it would still be a lie, because we have evidence that it can, they've seen it and yet they still say they can't solve problems correctly.

What you're saying is that I need to have an open mind about viewpoints even if there is all kinds of evidence proving that a particular viewpoint is incorrect. That makes no sense. If a Conservative said that the earth is flat, should I keep an open mind about that?

When Conservatives say Liberals hate rich people, does that mean rich Liberals hate themselves or are Conservatives just lying? It's stuff like that, that pisses us off and I don't know how you expect me to keep an open mind.

You've spent 30 years following politics, and the greatest argument you can come up with is: "Massachusetts is run better than the South" and a bunch of arguments based largely on ludicrous stereotypes and sound bites?

You need a new hobby.

 

[Mr.Pandah]

Absolutely cringe-worthy read. This is what people call trolling in other parts of the internet. An elaborate troll, but a troll nonetheless. Just poking at issues that don't need to be poked at. Mountain? Meet Molehill.

 

[GrimTuesday]

Bob is right and wrong in this article, he brings up some good points and some are complete shit, but that's true for most things on the internet. I would like to note that an awful lot of people are taking personal swipes at Bob, and that's pretty shitty of you, because even if you disagree with Bob's political views, civility isn't right wing or left wing.

It was stupid of Bob to bring up privilege for two reasons, first off, because I don't feel like he has a strong argument about that point, but also because the term privilege has become toxic on the internet, and I feel that it undermined his point.

I do however think he is right about South Park. I'm not at all a fan of South Park, not because it offends me and my admittedly far leftness, but rather because it is so smug in its whole "Look at how cynical we are about everything" routine. I can't think of anything more grating than people who act like they're somehow special just because they point out the blatant hypocrisy of our political system, all the while grossly misrepresenting what is actually going on and what is at stake. Not to mention the fact that South Park is incredibly juvenile in its jokes, relying heavily on vulgarity or just simple "toilet humor" (vomiting, poop jokes, and things of that nature) and attempting to pass it off as clever of insightful.

Sometimes it is funny (Scott Tenorman Must Die is one such episode), but for me, its very rare that I actually laugh at a joke from South Park, same goes for Family guy, though The Simpsons is still passably amusing.

 

[NiPah]

Attacking both sides equally... So South Park's ideology that nothing is sacred and anything can be satirized is analogous to physically attacking a baby for crying.

No it fucking ain't.

My apologies Bob, thats a freakin cheap shot, and while I disagree with you on most of what you say even I found that to be a low blow. When you use tropes and film school technobabble in your movie reviews I find it funny, I disagree with you, but it's funny, but please don't start resorting to blatant character assignations because then you lose the entertainment factor.

 

[sumanoskae]

I would agree that South Park is a shadow of it's former glory, (I don't event think it's that funny anymore) but I think their philosophy would be better described as "Attack everything" rather than "Attack everybody".

This, to me, seems to be the source of South Park's downfall; it's become increasingly inclined to simply attack the people supporting an argument instead of the argument itself.

The directed celebrity attacks used to function more as metaphors, now they're just attacks

 

[loc978]

Being a politically moderate cynic myself, I personally think we need more like South Park, not less. It's not that one side of extremist lunatics isn't more harmful than the other, it's that dividing into armed camps the way we have is the worst of all available evils. The part where your bus analogy falls apart isn't that the guy smacks both the baby and the guy with the phone... it's that he smacks anyone at all. As you said, Trey and Matt's message is that people should calm the fuck down, not attack one another... and if you mistake their poking fun for "attacks", I feel sorry for you. This sure is one hypersensitive culture we've developed into.

Also, thanks to that metaphor, I now have this song stuck in my head:

 

[AkaDad]

You've spent 30 years following politics, and the greatest argument you can come up with is: "Massachusetts is run better than the South" and a bunch of arguments based largely on ludicrous stereotypes and sound bites?

You need a new hobby.

They campaign and get elected on those sound bites. Their philosophy is anti-government and pro-free market. How is repeating what Conservatives say ludicrous? That governing philosophy was the reason they opposed Social Security, Medicare, child labor laws, minimum wages, environmental protections(even though a river caught on fire because it was so polluted), banking regulations, unemployment insurance, welfare, and civil rights laws. Basically, the things which made America a better place.

As I type this, Conservative Republicans have shut down our government because they are so ideologically opposed to the new health care law. That's going cost us billions, put hundreds of thousands of people out of work, and stop important government functions.

Politics isn't a hobby, it's a civic duty to be involved, especially since it has real-life consequences. I have plenty of hobbies btw, but thanks for being so condescending.

 

[Use_Imagination_here]

This is... clever but barely anything.

He's criticising an 18 season series but he basically has a single point. I feel like he could have been more in-depth about what he thought, the article just feels kind of insubstantial.

 

[Kameburger]

Today was an informative day. After discovering "American Bob" on youtube, I'm not surprised at all that Movie Bob doesn't like South Park. After all, South Park takes a lot of shots at people like movie Bob. Those folks left of center who believe that although everyone is entitles to their opinion, people with opinions that differ from his own should and I am paraphrasing "stay home and not vote because they are not fit to even operate a motor vehicle let along participate in the democratic process." Basically, the biggest target of Matt and Trey are usually always those who are so convinced in their own point of view that they cross the line into being simply condescending, and nothing describes the "American Bob" youtube videos better the "Condescending."

Still love the Big Picture though! Please keep doing those...

 

[tangoprime]

You've spent 30 years following politics, and the greatest argument you can come up with is: "Massachusetts is run better than the South" and a bunch of arguments based largely on ludicrous stereotypes and sound bites?

You need a new hobby.

They campaign and get elected on those sound bites. Their philosophy is anti-government and pro-free market. How is repeating what Conservatives say ludicrous? That governing philosophy was the reason they opposed Social Security, Medicare, child labor laws, minimum wages, environmental protections(even though a river caught on fire because it was so polluted), banking regulations, unemployment insurance, welfare, and civil rights laws. Basically, the things which made America a better place.

As I type this, Conservative Republicans have shut down our government because they are so ideologically opposed to the new health care law. That's going cost us billions, put hundreds of thousands of people out of work, and stop important government functions.

Politics isn't a hobby, it's a civic duty to be involved, especially since it has real-life consequences. I have plenty of hobbies btw, but thanks for being so condescending.

I was really hoping I wouldn't see you participating any more after you compared how awesome liberal politics are to conservative ones by using a Massachusetts (where you happen to live) vs. "The South" statement. I'm not sure if you get out much... but try visiting Houston some time. I moved here from Baltimore because after living there for 22 years I got to see what "liberal politics" does to densely populated areas (read Baltimore, DC, Chicago, Detroit, etc.), it was a dangerous, violent place, you have an undue amount of money taken from you for no visible return, and in the end had my job sector shattered because the Democrat governor saw a juicy target and imposed a massive computer services sector tax and all the businesses moved.

Now, I live in the most multicultural city I've ever seen, with much more pleasant people, and we happen to be the largest city in US history with an openly gay (and female) mayor*. Oh, and we have available jobs that provide a decent standard of living, AND our state has a balanced budget. We also have the largest and one of the best medical centers in the world*.

See, my anecdote is fun too, and there were some facts in there.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/13/us/politics/13houston.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Medical_Center

Also, just my thoughts on the government shutdown. People being out of work sucks, sure, and even right in my community it's being felt, as I live right near NASA JSC, but y'know what? The "government" has been shut down for a week, and we've somehow not descended in anarchy. So maybe, just maybe, some of those people not at work right now, aren't exactly a necessity to the function of our country. The whole shutdown in general though is just a bunch of grandstanding by two sides that are both WAY out of touch.

I've honestly gotten bored of seeing the punches back and forth about it, but the last news update I saw on the real life effects of the shutdown was the NPS shutting down 1,100 square miles OF OCEAN along with Biscayne Bay from people fishing, ruining a bunch of small businesses that do fishing charter trips, AND it's costing more to enforce the "shutdown" than it did to just leave it open, because, y'know, it's the fucking ocean.

 

[Quadocky]

I felt that Bob was trying to say, in short, "While the comedy and message in South Park can be good, it fails to offer a more nuanced perspective given that the perspective of the comedy is wholly reliant upon one being in a privileged position who may not be affected by lack of wealth or social standing."

At least that is the vibe I got.

I must admit though, I dislike anything vaguely libertarian (even as a kid) mostly because it seems more like a sort of culture imbued psychopathy.

 

[Mahoshonen]

[quote="tangoprime" post="6.830276.20249737Also, just my thoughts on the government shutdown. People being out of work sucks, sure, and even right in my community it's being felt, as I live right near NASA JSC, but y'know what? The "government" has been shut down for a week, and we've somehow not descended in anarchy. So maybe, just maybe, some of those people not at work right now, aren't exactly a necessity to the function of our country. The whole shutdown in general though is just a bunch of grandstanding by two sides that are both WAY out of touch.

I've honestly gotten bored of seeing the punches back and forth about it, but the last news update I saw on the real life effects of the shutdown was the NPS shutting down 1,100 square miles OF OCEAN along with Biscayne Bay from people fishing, ruining a bunch of small businesses that do fishing charter trips, AND it's costing more to enforce the "shutdown" than it did to just leave it open, because, y'know, it's the fucking ocean.[/quote]

Just wait a little longer until the Treasury is forced to default on it's loans. Then the fun begins...

 

[Paradoxrifts]

I've honestly gotten bored of seeing the punches back and forth about it, but the last news update I saw on the real life effects of the shutdown was the NPS shutting down 1,100 square miles OF OCEAN along with Biscayne Bay from people fishing, ruining a bunch of small businesses that do fishing charter trips, AND it's costing more to enforce the "shutdown" than it did to just leave it open, because, y'know, it's the fucking ocean.

Extortion by any other name would smell as rank.

 

[K12]

I like South Park but this is pretty spot on to the general attitude that gets in to some (but by no means all) of their episodes.

The show symbolises for the me the general cynicism about politics and social issues that is gradually annoying me more and more.

Everyone has an "agenda" and a "bias" rather than an "opinion" and "set of things they consider important". This is used because the opinions in the show are virtually always reactionary "i.e. this person's opinion is stupid". There's the idea since they don't have an agenda they also don't have to worry about who their attacking and why (or whether their attacks are even valid).

You don't suddenly forfeit your brain when you decide that you are going to openly support one political party over another, and many people who do still disagree on some key issues. Staying "neutral" in this situation doesn't give you extra immunity either. The question becomes whether you want to remain smug and sneer at the sidelines or do you actually want to participate and try and do some good.

All that said South Park is fucking funny and it can be genuinely very clever and insightful into some issues.

 

[Miroluck]

snip

You don't suddenly forfeit your brain when you decide that you are going to openly support one political party over another, and many people who do still disagree on some key issues. Staying "neutral" in this situation doesn't give you extra immunity either. The question becomes whether you want to remain smug and sneer at the sidelines or do you actually want to participate and try and do some good.

As we all know, arguments on the internet and IRL have solved a lot of real problems instead of making everyone feel worse. Right?

I never understood those arguments about "starting a discussion", "we need to keep discussing it" etc. It may feel like you're doing something but that's not true. Only thing people achieveing by that is killing some time.

 

[K12]

snip

You don't suddenly forfeit your brain when you decide that you are going to openly support one political party over another, and many people who do still disagree on some key issues. Staying "neutral" in this situation doesn't give you extra immunity either. The question becomes whether you want to remain smug and sneer at the sidelines or do you actually want to participate and try and do some good.

As we all know, arguments on the internet and IRL have solved a lot of real problems instead of making everyone feel worse. Right?

I never understood those arguments about "starting a discussion", "we need to keep discussing it" etc. It may feel like you're doing something but that's not true. Only thing people achieveing by that is killing some time.

Thinking about stuff isn't killing time, as someone training in educational psychology I could not disagree more. Also why are you assuming that this is the beginning and end of my involvement with issues that I care about? Talking about issues is the best way of exploring them to work out what matters to you and discover ways they might be realised.

Hate poverty? Is it better to withhold benefits to motivate people out of it or offer large amounts of financial support to make sure no-one goes too deep down into it? These things are worth discussing.

Beliefs inform actions and discussions can shape your beliefs. If you only use these kind of discussions as a way of killing time then I feel sorry for how empty and shallow your life must be (this sounds far more aggressive than I meant it to, the point I'm aiming at is that passion for an issue is good and it doesn't stop you from being thoughtful and rational)

 

[K12]

snip

You don't suddenly forfeit your brain when you decide that you are going to openly support one political party over another, and many people who do still disagree on some key issues. Staying "neutral" in this situation doesn't give you extra immunity either. The question becomes whether you want to remain smug and sneer at the sidelines or do you actually want to participate and try and do some good.

As we all know, arguments on the internet and IRL have solved a lot of real problems instead of making everyone feel worse. Right?

I never understood those arguments about "starting a discussion", "we need to keep discussing it" etc. It may feel like you're doing something but that's not true. Only thing people achieveing by that is killing some time.

Thinking about stuff isn't killing time, as someone training in educational psychology I could not disagree more. Also why are you assuming that this is the beginning and end of my involvement with issues that I care about? Talking about issues is the best way of exploring them to work out what matters to you and discover ways they might be realised.

Hate poverty? Is it better to withhold benefits to motivate people out of it or offer large amounts of financial support to make sure no-one goes too deep down into it? These things are worth discussing.

Beliefs inform actions and discussions can shape your beliefs. If you only use these kind of discussions as a way of killing time then I feel sorry for how empty and shallow your life must be (this sounds far more aggressive than I meant it to, the point I'm aiming at is that passion for an issue is good and it doesn't stop you from being thoughtful and rational)