Space Marine women?

[Neosage]

Space marines CANT be female. The implants are designed for the male physiology

I wonder how much people I have actually inspired to join just through this thread.

 

[Elurindel]

No my dear, it is because a lone sqaud of deathwing, thought they were going to die due to a genestealer invasion, they painted their armour white and managed to hold off the whole invasion.

They got lucky. =þ

Wait, did you just say an invasion of Genestealers? Not Lictors or a Carnifex or any of the more deadly types. Just Genestealers as in the tyranid scouting force, close combat only, ususally half human, meat shield GENESTEALERS? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Yeah. Be proud of "fighting" off a force of the tyranids basic troopers when youre in full Terminator armour. Whats next? A special squad of IG who bested a horde of kittens.

Actually it was more like 5 terminators against a planetsworth of genestealers.

Not to mention that Genestealers are far above your average Gaunt, with claws that can actually tear through Termy armour fairly well. Why do you think they're the Termy's rivals in Space Hulk?

 

[NordicNinja]

Actually it was more like 5 terminators against a planetsworth of genestealers.

Actually after checking it out everyone agrees there was 30 Terminators involved in the original story, fully armed with heavy bolters and flamers also with a Captain and a Librarian. The 5 you speak of were just the survivors. So 30 Terminators against just a planet of Genestealers... wow... Not to mention that it was a big open tribal world not even a heavily populated hive world. In Brotherhood of the Snake 50 ordinary battle brothers from a small pratically unknown chapter without even special weaponry took on a huge force of thousands (it never gave a exact number but estimated 10k+) of orks and lost not a single man. Deathwing sucks!

I thought that story sounded off.

Though the Brotherhood of the Snake sounds off as well, or at least was written terribly. Someone call Salvatore.

 

[Neosage]

Actually it was more like 5 terminators against a planetsworth of genestealers.

Actually after checking it out everyone agrees there was 30 Terminators involved in the original story, fully armed with heavy bolters and flamers also with a Captain and a Librarian. The 5 you speak of were just the survivors. So 30 Terminators against just a planet of Genestealers... wow... Not to mention that it was a big open tribal world not even a heavily populated hive world. In Brotherhood of the Snake 50 ordinary battle brothers from a small pratically unknown chapter without even special weaponry took on a huge force of thousands (it never gave a exact number but estimated 10k+) of orks and lost not a single man. Deathwing sucks!

Source? And anyway it was a squad ( I exeggarated the 5 bit but isn't that odinary squad size?)

 

[NordicNinja]

30 flashlights could definitely put a dent in 8 marines.

Fire Warrior is probably the biggest difference between Games and Canon. That little Tau is a beast.

 

[Elurindel]

Right here [http://fortressoftheunforgiven.com/CH03_06HoU_001_A.html]. :þ More sources can be found lots of places that one just summed it up best.
I have also just found my copy of the Ebook so will read it tonight. Is only 5 chapters so wont take long.

Not to mention that Genestealers are far above your average Gaunt, with claws that can actually tear through Termy armour fairly well. Why do you think they're the Termy's rivals in Space Hulk?

Games and canon are way different. If we went by games then 2 squads of IG (roughly 30) would be equal to a squad of SM (8) and we all know thats nowhere near true.

Yes, and the storyes are done using the canon. You don't think they actually got those 30 Terminators and tried them out against millions of 'Stealers, do you?

 

[Cheesebob]

All 40k races are scum, apart from Orks and Tyranids!

Those two races can't even think for themselves.

Exactly: no moral choices, no decaying civilisation, no slow death of an entire race, no laws and no being the pawn of some god or another

The galaxy is under the control of these races, the others just don't know it.

 

[Neosage]

All 40k races are scum, apart from Orks and Tyranids!

Those two races can't even think for themselves.

Exactly: no moral choices, no decaying civilisation, no slow death of an entire race, no laws and no being the pawn of some god or another

The galaxy is under the control of these races, the others just don't know it.

Orks have moral choices, alot of decaying civilisation if you can call it that, and they worship gods.

 

[Cheesebob]

Orks do not have any moral choices, an Ork WAAAAAGH! will destroy/ enslave anything until it runs out of steam, not matter what it is or where it is.

They arn't the pawn of one god or another like Chaos, Humans and Necrons are.

They also don't have very much of a civilisation unless you count the planets they have "taken" as a civilisation but Orks don't stay in one place long enough to have one anyway

 

[NordicNinja]

They also don't have very much of a civilisation unless you count the planets they have "taken" as a civilisation but Orks don't stay in one place long enough to have one anyway

Sure they do. They just stay there and beat up on one another until the next space-worthy Waaagh! comes along. And by then, they're big and tough.

 

[Neosage]

They don't worship any gods either. Me thinks.

Religion


Orks believe in two gods - Gork and Mork - of which Gork is the god of brutal cunning (Brutal but kunnin') and the other; Mork, is the god of cunning brutality (Kunnin' but brutal), the subtle distinction being that one hits you when you're not looking at him, and the other hits you hard when you are. There is a different mythology sometimes portrayed in which Gork and Mork are the gods of Defense and Attack. Orks can't agree which god plays which role, and debates about this topic often erupt into fighting (Although generally Gork is considered the more brutal by players, and Mork the more cunning, possibly due to their roles in gorkamorka, in which a Gorker was better at fighting, and a Morker better at driving). The priesthood of these gods has no in-game representation, although the infamous Goff Warlord Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka claims to be receiving visions from both. Also, there has been some mention of Yellerz (the ork version of a priest) although they are not seen ingame. In earlier versions a third god, Bork, appeared, but has since been dropped. Orks generally tend to distinguish between Gork and Mork as one being mean, and the other being meaner. Some divisions lie in determining who is meaner; another factor preventing Orks from being united. It is doubtful if the distinction between Gork and Mork means anything in Ork culture, as long as it allows them to bash something. Perhaps Gork and Mork are actually one god.

In the specialist game Gorkamorka, the surviving Orks of a space hulk crash on a desert planet and desperately try to rebuild a spacecraft from the ruins of their previous one so that they may leave the planet and rejoin the Waaagh! There are many theories about how this new spacecraft would do this, including the notion that it is really an enormous teleportation device which will transport all the Orks on to a passing spacehulk or friendly Ork craft. Another theory is that the monstrosity will simply take off into space with all the Orks aboard. However as the new space craft grew in size it began to gain a similarity to one of the Ork gods just as Ork Gargants do. This of course immediately led to a violent debate erupting between all the Orks present as to which god it looks like. Those that believe it looked more like Gork called themselves Gorkers and those who thought it to be Mork called themselves Morkers and the society was split in two. The rivalry between the two sides became the biggest obstacle to the Orks ever leaving the planet because as soon as they stopped concentrating on finding a way off the planet and started fighting each other, construction on the new space craft slowed to a practical halt and the battle between the two sides practically destroyed it. The Meks then decided to call the figure Gorkamorka to stop any future fighting and allowed any Ork to believe it was either Gork or Mork. This is just another example of how the Orks' built-in animosity has held back their progress severely and how their religion can inspire their violent tendencies. Perhaps this character flaw was purposely built into Ork personality by their ancient creators in order to prevent them from ever growing too powerful.

 

[BladesofReason]

There are space marine women. Sisters of Battle. But they only exist because of some edict forbidding whatever it is they defend from possessing fighting men. I can't remember exactly, go hit up the googles.

The rest of the marine chapters are male only because of the gene seed they use being designed for men or something like that.

After the disastrous Reign of Blood perpetrated by Goge Vandire the Imperium moved the home world of the Ecchlesiarchy from Terra (Earth) as part of the steps to make sure no one every became head of the Ecchlesiarchy and the High Lords of Terra ever again. In addition the Decree Passive was instated forbidding the Ecchlesiarchy from possessing any "men under arms". So taking the words literally the Ecchlesiarchy maintains the Sisters of Battle, or woman under arms.

There aren't any female Space Marines because, yeah the process that is used to create a Space Marine is geared towards men, and a woman's physiology wouldn't be able to withstand the stress they have to go through.

 

[SamLowry]

40k is a pathetic (by the very word) fantasy for little pre-pubescent boys (who like to attach paint on overexpensive plastic).

If you read one its rulebooks, you get the notion that the futurist movement, which idolized war, manliness and pathetic dying for blood, honour and shit did actually survive the trenches of the First World War.

The fact, that there still is melee in "modern" combat is preposterous.
Ever heard of Technology?
Ever heard of the invention of the Tool?
Technology, tools and the hand with the antagonistic thumb and fingers enable humans to surpass any animal in strength, armor, speed, lethality, etc.

Your question is a bad joke.
I mean, have a look @ Africa, where CHILDREN are soldiers... no, not fully grown humans (be it male or female), but CHILDREN!

The invention of the assault rifle has made this possible.
Whether a society, where children fight is desirable is a question that is not part of the pathic 40k world, which consists, as someone already put it entirely of "fight and death" (add: "shitloads of pathos, pathos, pathos") - and there you have your answer.

A woman in an exosuit/armor with a helmet on would look EXACTLY the same as a man. If you consider that movement is assisted by technology, there would be no differences - regarding combat capabilities - left between the 2 sexes.

But then again... there goes your little boys' fantasy, which can best be checked in American cartoons (take Batman for example and check for the picturization of the average male vs. the average female, what do you find?) and latest macho video games (Gears of War, anyone?) where males _have_ to look like 3metres tall, 2metres wide, 120% muscles and women like 40 kilos, 2 pounds of make-up plus cup-size F.

Did I already mention that the world of 40k is pathetic?

 

[Axolotl]

If you read one its rulebooks, you get the notion that the futurist movement, which idolized war, manliness and pathetic dying for blood, honour and shit did actually survive the trenches of the First World War.

So you're on a videogame-based forum complaining about the idolization of war?

 

[SamLowry]

Even fantasy needs plausibility and credibility. Even if it features magic (like LOTR), hi-tech (like 40k) or anything else, it has to be coherent.

Hi-tech combat and space-faring civilization amalgamated with the mindset of the Neandertal Man don't give a plausible match, boy.

Because the major unanswerable question is: How would a being as stupid and culturally low as a hunter&gatherer ever leave his home planet? To solve that problem you actually need to be a ROCKET SCIENTIST.

@Axolotl:

So you're on a videogame-based forum complaining about the idolization of war?

I've heard that once upon a time, behind the seven hills, among the seven dwarves, there were some games, which actually didn't idolize war, heck... even featured completely non-violent topics, where you don't run around and shoot at anything that moves...
But those, of course, were soon stigmatized as "casual games", whereas real "videogames" feature at least 451 beheadings...
And then, there are games, which are _about_ war, but don't idolize it, like... let's say Deus Ex...

 

[Axolotl]

And then, there are games, which are _about_ war, but don't idolize it, like... let's say Deus Ex...

Name ten games that include war but idolise it less than 40K does. Quite frankly 40k doesn't really idolize war at all but in comparison the vast majority of games that feature war it certainly isn't anywhere near their level of war-love.

 

[geldonyetich]

I'm not sure I'd use the word pathetic to describe Warhammer 40k, but it's certainly overbearing to the point of infeasibility. All the races in the universe (humankind "Empire" included) run the gamut of being overzealous to completely bloodthirsty, and probably would have blasted themselves back into the stone age with their own suicidal tendencies.

The defense the average fan would use, that it's just entertaining and not supposed to be realistic, is fair.

Of course, once you throw walking Gods and the Warp into the mix, who's to say what's realistic anymore?

 

[TheTemby]

So I watched this

This is the most abstract and fun thing ive seen in years

 

[Saskwach]

If you read one its rulebooks, you get the notion that the futurist movement, which idolized war, manliness and pathetic dying for blood, honour and shit did actually survive the trenches of the First World War.

Your argument assumes that the society that exists in 40k 'survived' WW1. There is nothing in the history that implies that 40k humanity is in any way related to the real world. Yes, there is Terra and the moon and Mars, but if we're getting into astronomy, the Terra system is millions of light years closer to the galactic centre than it should be. There are humans and an Earth because those things are familiar and immediately understandable, not because they are related to our history.
Unless of course you mean that the writers think this. They do not; they just understand the setting. 40k is basically the Dark Ages in space with everything bad about that time exaggerates a hundred fold, and to try to avoid that truth in the rulebooks misses the point. Europe in that time was an incredibly violent place; a place so violent that it wasn't enough to blacken a man's name to say he was violent and murderous - he had to be depraved and sadistic too.

The fact, that there still is melee in "modern" combat is preposterous.
Ever heard of Technology?
Ever heard of the invention of the Tool?
Technology, tools and the hand with the antagonistic thumb and fingers enable humans to surpass any animal in strength, armor, speed, lethality, etc.

The idea that faster than light travel is preposterous.
Ever heard of relativity?
Ever heard of Einstein?
Good, now we've agreed that ninety five percent of space-based sci-fi is off-limits according to your Preposterous Law of What Sci-Fi Can Talk About I can see the sci-fi nerds cry. I never liked them anyway.

Your question is a bad joke.
I mean, have a look @ Africa, where CHILDREN are soldiers... no, not fully grown humans (be it male or female), but CHILDREN!

The invention of the assault rifle has made this possible.
Whether a society, where children fight is desirable is a question that is not part of the pathic 40k world, which consists, as someone already put it entirely of "fight and death" (add: "shitloads of pathos, pathos, pathos") - and there you have your answer.

A woman in an exosuit/armor with a helmet on would look EXACTLY the same as a man. If you consider that movement is assisted by technology, there would be no differences - regarding combat capabilities - left between the 2 sexes.

But then again... there goes your little boys' fantasy, which can best be checked in American cartoons (take Batman for example and check for the picturization of the average male vs. the average female, what do you find?) and latest macho video games (Gears of War, anyone?) where males _have_ to look like 3metres tall, 2metres wide, 120% muscles and women like 40 kilos, 2 pounds of make-up plus cup-size F.

Did I already mention that the world of 40k is pathetic?

Here's where we agree: no female space marines... well there's no good reason for it. Oh well, I'll just go back to looking at the dozens of other silly inconsistencies in the 40kverse.
I think, though, that those teenage boys you so rabidly hate have a greater maturity level than you think. When I was a GW nerd a regular came into the store with an army of female Space Marines. Everyone in the store (mostly those teenage boys) thought they were kick-ass and got into this very discussion. Not bad for such hormonal little brats, eh?
As for whether the setting is pathetic, I think it's not what it used to be, and most of those changes really are thqnks to pandering to the teenage battle system crowd. GW has a lotta 'splainin ta do in that department.
But I also think that GW underestimates those teenagers, too. I and all my friends left the hobby as teenagers and are only coming back as young adults (actual YAs, not the book term) now that we've caught onto the RPG side of the hobby (Dark Heresy and WFRP, oh yeah).
The 40k setting is a gonzo one that was created before the divide between fantasy and sci-fi had really solidified (yes, only a few decades ago many geeks didn't even draw the distinction) and many of its hang-ups come from that. Magic holds hands with (misunderstood) technology and no one blinks. It's moody sometimes to the point of overindulgence - like dark chocolate on chocolate cake and chocolate mousse - it's blackly humorous, fleshed out like no other setting there is - and god do I love it. If you don't, that's cool, but try to hate it with a bit more style and dignity than the teenage boy strawman you seem to loathe so much - and I suspect you aren't far from.

 

[Saskwach]

I'm not sure I'd use the word pathetic to describe Warhammer 40k, but it's certainly overbearing to the point of infeasibility. All the races in the universe (humankind "Empire" included) run the gamut of being overzealous to completely bloodthirsty, and probably would have blasted themselves back into the stone age with their own suicidal tendencies.

The defense the average fan would use, that it's just entertaining and not supposed to be realistic, is fair.

Of course, once you throw walking Gods and the Warp into the mix, who's to say what's realistic anymore?

This is a good point. 40k is so gonzo that the feasibility of combat is the least of a nitpicker's problems. In fact, it's so deliberately off the wall that to call it on that is practically a compliment. 40k was made that way. It's not 'hard' SF.