Space Marines: They're becoming wimpier with each generation (Now with added ORK!)

[Meatstorm]

WHATS WRONG WITH THRALL! Well sure hes not as "Ork" as they are in warhammer but is also isnt really a wimp

 

[Wyatt]

Thats probably a fair point, as I haven't read dune I'll have to take your word for it, although divine rulers as a concept have been around since the Pharoes and IIRC the Japanese emporers were considered to be divine, even if they didn't have any real life kewl powerz, they sure had some fanatically loyal followers. True, you could say that really the Japanese emporers were basically just figureheads a lot of the time and the various lords and such running the show, but then the big E hasn't given an order for 10K years, it's the high lords of Terra that run things in the 40K hood.

Of course your meant to make connections with the cruades...they couldn't have made the connection with medieval Europe/Christianity any clearer if they'd tried. Which they probably did. Very hard. Heck 40K's fantasy precursor virtually was medieval europe, albeit with a bunch of gods rather than 1.

Also, I cannot believe I forgot Michael Moorcock.

the thing about dune/40K and their god emperor is that from a certian point of view they WERE gods especialy when compared to a normal man. in Dune the ability to see the future of all mankind from what someone will have for lunch tomorow to the eventual fait of the race as a whole was just about as close to a living god as you can get. in 40K the emperor lived for 10s of thousands of years, was a powerful psyker in his own right, was psyicaly extreamly powerful, (even the superpowerd primarchs were just shallow clones of him, and the uber tough space marines were just clones of the primarchs more or less) he is in the 40K universe as close to a real living god as you can get. i dont know that id worship either of them, since my views on what makes a god THEE God are formed by my life experiance but if i was raised without christian teachings and could actualy look at and see the power of these beings i might indeed worship them. this is a kinda tough thing for anyone who has been raised in a world where for the most part there is ONE God (speaking of the 3 main religions in the world that is) and hes not actualy setting on a throne someplace on earth.

no matter how strong any man is hes JUST a man too our way of thinking, but if your raised another way than you believe another way. using your examples , if humans can make gods out of turds like the japaneese emperor what would these same kinds of humans make of a man who could boil your skin off you with just a look, or tell you the details of your entire life from start to finish?

the emperor in 40k though isnt just there and others make policy, taken from HERE [http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Emperor_of_Mankind] it says

"The Emperor now resides upon the Golden Throne. It is a complex device located in the vast complex known as the Emperor's Palace, and located on Terra. There the Emperor's physical form is sustained by carefully-maintained machinery. The Golden Throne is connected to a massive warp beacon known as the Astronomican which generates a system of signals making faster than light Warp travel in the Imperium possible.

The Emperor is at the very center of the Imperium, simultaneously carrying out a multitude of vital tasks. Although he is not directly involved in the day to day running of the Imperium, he dictates to the High Lords the most important and far-reaching decisions. All at once he guides his race through the Emperor's Tarot, soul-binds psykers, holds audiences with his most important servants and beams the Astronomican beacon."

so we can see that while hes not chatting with his aids about whats for lunch hes still very much alive and involved with the empire.

he is a living god and what he does makes humankind continue to exist. he might not be THEE God that we worship in any of our main religions but he will certianly do till the real one comes along dont you think?

But when the battle's over they still don't stop and think. They're glorified stormtroopers, y'know?

-- Alex

as scum points out, the battle is never over. thats not a hard thing to accept, being from America i cant think of a single time in our entire history when we werent either actualy fighting or preparing for a war of some kind. and thats just against our fellow man and enemys we sometimes make for ourselves. now immagin us being invaded by aliens, several kinds, that are just as warlike if not more so and just as extream and dedicated too wining that war, what do you think us humans that survive would actualy become?

in another thread you have show that you obviously belive in darwins theory, apply it here, once the nice guys, once the guys that want to show compassion and mercy are dead because a mouse doesnt declare a truse with a cat that leaves those people hard enough too just survive in an envoriment of constant war, and not just little wars like we have had on earth, our biggest war in history was WWII and that only lasted 6 years and only killed 75 million or so people and look how much the world was changed by that war, now immagin a war that lasts for 30,000 years and kills uncountable numbers of people. the history of 40k and the entire war is about 3 times as long as ALL of recorded human history. humans have been fighting this war for 6 times as long as from the Pharos untill now.

thats not only long enough for social evoultion too kick in but also long enough for natural evoultion to work as well. toss in obvious genetic manipulation and who knows if these people 40K years from now could even still be called human.

anyhow scum hit the nail exactly on the heard with his reply above this one. i like them BECAUSE they ar 'storm troopers' hell i liked the storm troopers in star wars. truth is once i got into the expanded universe of star wars i wish the empire had won. and if it had been at all like real life they WOULD have.

i dont actualy enjoy a fantasy world where 'good' allways wins, especialy by heavy handed intervention by mystical 'forces'. i much prefer a world where reality is atleast given a nod in passing. in the entire course of human history there has never been a war fought and won by a smaller army with equil weapons. i dont know if might makes right or not but i DO know that might allways wins.

we lost the vietnam war not because we lacked the ability to win, but because we lacked the resolve, the WILL to win. what makes the Space Marines awsome is that they have no such lacking. you literaly have to kill them to stop them. thats also why we as humans are facinated by things like the Borg, or terminators.

Listen, and understand. That terminator is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead.

still sends a chill into my spine. sure its dull as fuck, but its also prolly the most frightning thing you could possably face in a war senario. and i dont know about you but if im facing that war senario i want these warriors on MY side. i want my soldiers to bomb hospitals if thats whats needed to win a war, i want my soldiers to kill an entire school full of children if the situation calls for it, i want my soldiers to eat the enemy dead if thats required. we can deal with the moral issues after the war is over.

if we lose in the main theater thats it game over, but if we WIN all else can be put right afterwords. (another semi-quote from Jackie fisher).

 

[Alex_P]

You want interesting, go Inquisition, it's pretty much taken as given that the marines are a bunch of boring characterless killbots. Unless you look at the older stuff. Deathwing was kinda cool, as was Space Marine by Ian Watson, but that was early 90's fluff.

Yeah. That's really the crux of my gripes.

The other thing for me is, well, the campiness. 40k is definitely high on camp. Being over-the-top is a core part of the setting's design. I mean, look at the Orks! There's a reason we use words like "grimdark" and "crapsack world" (rather than, say, "grim" or "dystopia") to describe it.

The resounding message of this thread is that if it's not campy and over-the-top, it's not cool. And, jeez, I see that everywhere these days and I absolute despise it. Because that particular "cult of cool" makes everything the same. Giant muscles and ninjas and huge explosions and sharks riding dinosaurs are everywhere in geek fiction, and they make it worse.

-- Alex

 

[TheRightToArmBears]

Am I lone in thinking that Eldar are cooler?

 

[PurpleRain]

so... who do you think would kill MC in the most enteraining way from the 40k universe???

imo Kharn

Pack of hungry Space Wolves. I personally would love to see him fall to the Dark Eldar. Though he wouldn't be dead.... for a long long time.

As for the Space Marines, look at it through the point of how much they can endure. A bit of DE handy work comes into this, but a Space Marine can still live though his skins flayed off and most of his organs removed. Mmm, the blissful terror of their screams!
Plus when fighting them on the battlefield, I know too well how hard it is to cut through that tank-like armour. Weapons that shoot glass, suck.

 

[Zykon TheLich]

@ Wyatt.

Alive and involved yes. Calling the shots?

"superstition and dogma replacing his doctrine of Imperial Truth"

"Now, his will is interpreted and executed by the High Lords of Terra"

Maybe it's me making connections with the catholic church, but I think that the general idea is that things are not proceeding according to the emporers will, he's too busy staying alive and projecting the astronomicon, sure he gives his opinion (which has to be interpreted) on the bigger things, but that leaves a lot to the high lords and everyone else, the administratum is often said to be the most powerful force in the Imperium, and they don't necessarily do things the way the emporer would have.

Anyways, my comment about not giving an order for 10K years was hyperbole. To put it another way, sure the emporer is powerful, but how many citizens of the Imperium have seen that power? Do they all go to war because they have seen the Emporers power or because of their indoctrined belief, or the gun in their back? To me it seems little different to being told that god wants you to do something in the middle ages or even in this day and age in some parts of the world.

Also, that bit you quoted is from Rogue Trader, that's not necessarily canon now

EDIT: I have to agree with you on the Star Wars thing, blatantly the empire should have won. I still can't work out what it was about them that was so bad. apart from that planet explodey thing.

 

[Caliostro]

Honestly the answer isn't that space marines are getting wimpier, but that we're moving more towards realism.

Honestly, I have my issues with this new "realism" fad, BUT, this isn't one of them. I dunno, to me the 40k style "marines" are so...over the top... To me they seem like the creation of some immature mind still stuck on the "MY PENIS IS BIGGER THAN YOURS!" mentality, typical of 15 year old kids and frat boys... I mean, how does that thought process go...

"We make a guy... Dress him in armor...And..NONO! Not THAT! By armor I meant an entire Tank... Nono! Not THAT tank...A big one...No a BIGGER one...About the size of boat actually... An yes... Now add lasers... And missiles... More...Bigger ones...Maybe a minigun too... THERE! Now scale them up twice...And he'll be able to move at lightspeed and do backflips! PERFECT! "

It just doesn't tickle my fancy... It's too much, too surreal... Pushes right over the "awesome!" edge and plunges straight down into "too far". Give me a bio enhanced clone trooper, give me a cyborg, a nano-suit soldier... Anything that looks mildly human and believable...

 

[Zykon TheLich]

The other thing for me is, well, the campiness. 40k is definitely high on camp. Being over-the-top is a core part of the setting's design. I mean, look at the Orks! There's a reason we use words like "grimdark" and "crapsack world" (rather than, say, "grim" or "dystopia") to describe it.

The resounding message of this thread is that if it's not campy and over-the-top, it's not cool. And, jeez, I see that everywhere these days and I absolute despise it. Because that particular "cult of cool" makes everything the same. Giant muscles and ninjas and huge explosions and sharks riding dinosaurs are everywhere in geek fiction, and they make it worse.

-- Alex

It really wasn't so bad when it started, the old orks were really quite endearing. It was grim and dystopian but not so ludicrously UBER as well.

The Inquisitor books with Jaq draco were some good stuff and as for Deathwing...there is something increadibly sweet about a centuries old space marine terminator captain that still keeps a braid of hair from his first love around his neck...I wish I had a braid of hair hair from my first love...excuse me, I think I'm going to cry...

EDIT: Remember, most of these guys are 14 year old kids arguing about wether Master Chief could beat up a space marine, what do you expect?

 

[MIDIsurf 558]

so... who do you think would kill MC in the most enteraining way from the 40k universe???

imo Kharn

Pack of hungry Space Wolves. I personally would love to see him fall to the Dark Eldar. Though he wouldn't be dead.... for a long long time.

As for the Space Marines, look at it through the point of how much they can endure. A bit of DE handy work comes into this, but a Space Marine can still live though his skins flayed off and most of his organs removed. Mmm, the blissful terror of their screams!
Plus when fighting them on the battlefield, I know too well how hard it is to cut through that tank-like armour. Weapons that shoot glass, suck.

the dark eldar would prob turn MC into some kind of slave. i can just see a scene where a dark eldar lord tells MC to cook is own face for dinner.

i wonder what fabius bile would do o him??? 'MC your regenareting health coulf be useful to me'

 

[Canniballisticduck]

I agree the 40K space marines are FTW thats what they all should be like i wonder where we went wrong...

 

[EndOfDaWorld]

Quoting Yahtzee: "I thought we abandoned realism around the time Space Marines were stabbing dinosaurs on the planet Zog"

some Space Marines have rocket launchers

 

[Alex_P]

as scum points out, the battle is never over. thats not a hard thing to accept, being from America i cant think of a single time in our entire history when we werent either actualy fighting or preparing for a war of some kind.
...
if we lose in the main theater thats it game over, but if we WIN all else can be put right afterwords. (another semi-quote from Jackie fisher).

See the contradiction there, Wyatt?

in another thread you have show that you obviously belive in darwins theory, apply it here, once the nice guys, once the guys that want to show compassion and mercy are dead because a mouse doesnt declare a truse with a cat that leaves those people hard enough too just survive in an envoriment of constant war, and not just little wars like we have had on earth, our biggest war in history was WWII and that only lasted 6 years and only killed 75 million or so people and look how much the world was changed by that war, now immagin a war that lasts for 30,000 years and kills uncountable numbers of people. the history of 40k and the entire war is about 3 times as long as ALL of recorded human history. humans have been fighting this war for 6 times as long as from the Pharos untill now.

Well, there's killing the enemy and there's killing yourself. Letting war corrupt your culture isn't integral to winning. It does set you on the path of eventual decline, however.

People, technology, and strategy win wars. The Imperium enslaves all three to dogma. They just fucking throw their own people away left and right. They kill random alien species that they could just ignore because it's a matter of doctrine that they will somehow be a threat.

Would we have been more successful in Vietnam if US soldiers started shooting Vietnamese children instead of giving them Hershey bars? Would we have been more successful if we trained squads of suicide soldiers to carry out operations against the enemy? Would we have been more successful if JFK picked "total war" and launched nukes at Moscow?

Yes, being determined and smart can sometimes mean doing immoral, cruel things to win. Abject cruelty itself doesn't win wars, though. And abject cruelty glorified -- hell, in 40k it's deified -- makes your victory pointless. That's what the "crapsack world" setting is all about.

-- Alex

 

[Pezzer]

Do you remember the day that Space Marines were 12 feet tall, could spit acid, had 4 lungs, at least 2 hearts, carried guns that required complete teams of mere mortals to operate (that were easily held by Space Marines), could kill anything, and occasionally died (in very very short occurrences.

No?

You mean the Rogue Trader days? And even then they weren't that badass except in the fluff. And even in the fluff these ultimate badasses were all basically warrior monks with no ability to critical think or have sex. So basically they're the ultimate prepubescent hero.

Ws-Bs-S-T-W-I-A-Ld-Sv
4--4--4-4-1-4-1-8--3+ = wuss

A guardsman has to face down the worst horrors in the universe with nothing but a flashlight, string vest and a butter knife.

Ws-Bs-S-T-W-I-A-Ld-Sv
3--3--3-3-1-3-1-7--5+ = man

I have to say that the background and rules do not seem to fit at all on Space Marines.

They ared described as almost unkillable and able to defeat hundreds of enemies before death. And yet they are easily beaten by other races even slightly elite units.

 

[Zykon TheLich]

Yes, being determined and smart can sometimes mean doing immoral, cruel things to win. Abject cruelty itself doesn't win wars, though. And abject cruelty glorified -- hell, in 40k it's deified -- makes your victory pointless. That's what the "crapsack world" setting is all about.

-- Alex

This isn't really my argument, but I should point out that GRIMDARK isn't the be all and end all of 40k. It's been labelled a crapsack world by some people who focus on specific elements of the tabletop game thats marketed to teenage wargamers.

I've not read any recent 40k books, but I do have all the Dark Heresy RPG books and from what Ive heard on FFG and the old Black Industry forums then the Books that deal with the inquisition are a lot more intelligent and not just doom kill kill kill.

Inquisitors do question what the Imperium is doing, there are different factions trying to steer the Imperium in different directions. Some factions do realise the Imperium is a total clusterfuck. It's just that the aforementioned teenage wargamers like GRIMDARK and think it's kewl, so that what GW markets to make money.

 

[Geo Da Sponge]

I know we're ten pages in, but this is still mainly aimed at the OP:

Waaah! Waaah! The new Space Marines don't live up to my stereotype image of how every character of a similar nature should be! I mean, every game has to have balance and a certain degree of challenge, so you suggesting that every Marine is a wall of manliness won't work in any case. Ever wondered why Space Marines in 40K aren't as powerful on table as they are in the books? Because of balance; deal with it.

Plus referring to 40K isn't a very good idea for showing how stuff has got wimpier. I mean, everything in 40K is on a ridiculous scale. That's why it's a joke; the protagonists are always declared the most awesome-ist, so they win. If everything with Space Marines in it had 40K marines there'd be no point.

Additionially:
What really gets to me is that in the "Best Space Marine ever" thread, Master Chief was omitted because technically he's in the navy and not a proper marine, even though the two organisations work very closely by definition. However, the moment we get a chance to dump on him he is included in the category so we can mock him. I don't mind people disliking Halo or the character, it's the lengths people will go to to deny them any kind of recognition.

 

[TheRightToArmBears]

I don't see the point in comparing things from entirely separate universes.

 

[Alex_P]

I've not read any recent 40k books, but I do have all the Dark Heresy RPG books and from what Ive heard on FFG and the old Black Industry forums then the Books that deal with the inquisition are a lot more intelligent and not just doom kill kill kill.

Inquisitors do question what the Imperium is doing, there are different factions trying to steer the Imperium in different directions. Some factions do realise the Imperium is a total clusterfuck. It's just that the aforementioned teenage wargamers like GRIMDARK and think it's kewl, so that what GW markets to make money.

The thing I don't like about Dark Heresy is that they didn't actually give you the opportunity to do any of that big fancy Inquisitor stuff. You're more like the Inquisitor's little gang of helpers. Not to say small is bad, but small in a setting that's all about big is a little bit... well, trivial.

I would have added some rules for running the Inquisitor himself (perhaps controlled collaboratively) and using his resources, at the least. As written, the game kinda sounds like D&D in Space.

-- Alex

 

[Kadamon]

This thread is... still going... and going... wow.

Well then, I believe I got my point across

 

[Zykon TheLich]

The thing I don't like about Dark Heresy is that they didn't actually give you the opportunity to do any of that big fancy Inquisitor stuff. You're more like the Inquisitor's little gang of helpers. Not to say small is bad, but small in a setting that's all about big is a little bit... well, trivial.

I would have added some rules for running the Inquisitor himself (perhaps controlled collaboratively) and using his resources, at the least. As written, the game kinda sounds like D&D in Space.

-- Alex

Now who's trying to be all Uber with his big fancy inquisitor stuff?

You should like that...in a world of shit the small victories are perhaps just as precious as the large ones. Maybe you can't save the Impirium, but you might be able to save that one planet. That's pretty Epic if you ask me. Maybe just that little girl and her family,

Any RPG is what you make it. Why do you need rules for fancy inquisitor stuff. What difference does fighting at a higher level make? Sounds kinda Dungeon crawly to me. What? You need to roll a dice to see if your exterminatus hits and damages? Good pre written adventures are hard to find, make your own, with a good story, thats much more satisfying than rolling dice and pretending your are mowing down chaos terminators with your arm cannon.

 

[BladesofReason]

Am I lone in thinking that Eldar are cooler?

No, not at all