Speed Runner Beats Ocarina of Time in Less Than 19 Minutes

Dunwich

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CriticKitten said:
008Zulu said:
I don't recognize his achievement. Exploiting glitches to beat a game should invalidate the entire effort.
I'm gonna disagree with the massive panel of people bashing this post and say that you're absolutely right, and they're not.

It's not a legit run if the guy has to cheat to finish it. Period. Don't really care how people want to defend it, they don't call them "exploits" because they're so hardcore MLG legit, dawgs. They call them "exploits" because they abuse broken mechanics in the game to win, i.e., they cheat and violate the spirit of the game.
no, this run is legit, i guarantee Cosmo does not do TAS if that's what you're implying, if not then the spirit of the game the characters in it and everything else must be thrown aside for the glory of ''teh urn'' there's another category altogether for glitchless runs.
 

Domogo

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CriticKitten said:
008Zulu said:
I don't recognize his achievement. Exploiting glitches to beat a game should invalidate the entire effort.
I'm gonna disagree with the massive panel of people bashing this post and say that you're absolutely right, and they're not.

It's not a legit run if the guy has to cheat to finish it. Period. Don't really care how people want to defend it, they don't call them "exploits" because they're so hardcore MLG legit, dawgs. They call them "exploits" because they abuse broken mechanics in the game to win, i.e., they cheat and violate the spirit of the game.
I Would agree with you if he was actually cheating, however he is not.

If we were to say that he was cheating, it stands that he would have to be altering the game, the difference here is that he is abusing poor programming to get unintended results (I know this sounds like a cop out but stick with me).

When you first look into it it does in fact look like he is cheating but if you break down what is actually happening you will find that at no point is there and cheating involved, to do this I will walk-through the, arguably, most important 'glitch' in the run, the wrong warp.

We will begin when Cosmo re-enters the boss room after the fight at 13:08

He begins by emptying his bottle and then refilling it, this is to allow for a programming error that lets you use the bottle like the Ocarina (its not hard but I dont really want to go into this much detail) Afterwards he uses very precise movement from very specific positions (it doesn't look like it because he sets it up so fast but I promise it only works very specifically) and lands in the very edge of the blue warp, where he uses the bottle like an ocarina (again you can look that up on your own if you want to know how it works) this causes the game to give him back control because the game has a camera lock when you play the ocarina that overrides the camera and move lock from the warp.

Now here is the important part,

The way that OOT is programmed there is a counter that ticks up when you enter the warp this counter determines where you warp to (this affects all screen transitions including doors) now because he is no longer standing in the warp the game does not warp him and the counter continues to tick up, then, again with very specific timing and movement, he leaves the room when the counter is a the specific interval that happens to lead right to the end of the game.

Now that you have a break down of what is happening, you can see that this is no different then accidentally falling through the floor or through a wall in any other game except that by understanding the game programming you can manipulate what happens to give you exact results, and at no point is the game not following its intended programming, everything that happens is caused by the game.



I do understand your sentiment that this 'violates the spirit' however I would argue that the 'spirit' of the game at its core is to save the princess and the world as fast as you can before time runs out and the bad guy wins, Cosmo just happens to be able to do that in 19 minutes.
 

ThisNickname

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Go Cosmo go! =D
I'm happy for him, I watch his videos on youtube sometimes, and he pretty much seems like the nicest guy ever.

...Which is why I'm kind of sad to see so many people here treating his achievement like some kind of affront to the spirit of gaming...
 

suitepee7

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Dec 6, 2010
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Caiphus said:
another for the 'it doesn't count team!'

i get that it is impressive, but it still isn't the full game. seeing as people as quoting the olympic races here, this is the equivalent of creating a teleporter, teleporting right next to the end, then claiming you're the fastest runner. if everybody has a teleporter, then fine, you can have a teleport race, but the real race is being run by people not skipping 90% of the track...

ThisNickname said:
Go Cosmo go! =D
I'm happy for him, I watch his videos on youtube sometimes, and he pretty much seems like the nicest guy ever.

...Which is why I'm kind of sad to see so many people here treating his achievement like some kind of affront to the spirit of gaming...
credit where credit is due, it is impressive and to do it takes a skill i will never have. but i take issue with claims that he beat the game, when the majority wasn't beaten, but skipped. he may as well of entered a passcode for the last level, and somehow that is counted as the full game (i am aware passcodes don't work for this particular game, but you get the idea).

the guy is good, and i wouldn't call it an affront to the spirit of gaming at all, but in my eyes the claim is exaggerated somewhat (although not necessarily by him)
 

Eldritch Warlord

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008Zulu said:
I don't recognize his achievement. Exploiting glitches to beat a game should invalidate the entire effort.
Caiphus said:
008Zulu said:
He is obviously playing the game outside of the intended spirit of it. But maybe you are all right. While we are at it, lets give back the medals to everyone who ever juiced at the Olympics.

Exploiting bugs/glitches is cheating. If he wants to set a legitimate record, have him go through the game properly.
Wow, look at all the people quoting you. I'll join in!

In any case, I agree with you (despite the Olympics analogy being quite off).
CriticKitten said:
008Zulu said:
I don't recognize his achievement. Exploiting glitches to beat a game should invalidate the entire effort.
I'm gonna disagree with the massive panel of people bashing this post and say that you're absolutely right, and they're not.

It's not a legit run if the guy has to cheat to finish it. Period. Don't really care how people want to defend it, they don't call them "exploits" because they're so hardcore MLG legit, dawgs. They call them "exploits" because they abuse broken mechanics in the game to win, i.e., they cheat and violate the spirit of the game.
All achievements are relative. No one compares this speed-run to people who speed-run the game "legitimately," other than people like you three. Any% runs are a completely separate category than glitchless or 100% runs.

What you're doing is like comparing how fast a pitcher throws a baseball to how fast a quarterback throws a football.
 

suitepee7

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Dec 6, 2010
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SirBryghtside said:
suitepee7 said:
Caiphus said:
another for the 'it doesn't count team!'

i get that it is impressive, but it still isn't the full game. seeing as people as quoting the olympic races here, this is the equivalent of creating a teleporter, teleporting right next to the end, then claiming you're the fastest runner. if everybody has a teleporter, then fine, you can have a teleport race, but the real race is being run by people not skipping 90% of the track...
Everyone has a teleporter. [http://www.zeldaspeedruns.com/leaderboards/oot/any]
and like i said, if everybody has one, then it's a teleport race. but it is not beating the entire game. it is skipping to the end and being fastest at that. totally legitimate in context, but not the whole game
 

draigodragon

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Nov 21, 2011
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I'm beginning to hate this post and the blatant amount of people that can't look both ways D:

If you guy's want to leave your head in the ground and keep thinking speed runs only mean playing the game "The Right Way" then by all means keep looking down as for me and everyone else who can look in multiple directions we will have fun in the clean and open sky of Boss runs,Any% and full runs :D
 

Caiphus

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suitepee7 said:
I appreciate the supportive reply, I really do, although I didn't necessarily say "it doesn't count". Clearly it does for the speedrun community of which this guy is a part. I'm saying I wouldn't necessarily describe it as "beating the game", if I was having a conversation with a friend, since that's personally not what I think of when I hear "beating the game".

But I wasn't trying to take away the guy's achievement. Although I fear I may have come across that way because:

Eldritch Warlord said:
people like you three
Woah, what? "People like you". I mentioned in my post that, and this was news to me, the speedruns were placed in separate categories. I never conflated the speedrun in the article with a 100% run. I specifically said that the speedrun in question was within the spirit of speedrunning, and accepted by that community, but that I personally wouldn't consider it beating the game.

But I'm fully prepared to accept that my opinion is completely different to you guys, and that it has no effect on speedrunning.

So yeah. I apologise if I was misunderstood. But come now. Let's not get offensive.
 

The_Echo

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Mar 18, 2009
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008Zulu said:
I don't recognize his achievement. Exploiting glitches to beat a game should invalidate the entire effort.
I can tell you're new to speedrunning. Protip: the whole point is to go fast.

Exploiting glitches is no easy task, though it might seem so at a glance. Spyro 2: Ripto's Rage! and Spyro: Year of the Dragon were actually quite recently completely broken, taking their any% categories from around 40 minutes each to just over 10. (The old any%s still live on as 14 Talisman and 100 Egg respectively, however.)

It took a lot of work to find the exploits necessary to achieve that time, and they are by no means easy to do, let alone do consistently and in a timely fashion. And even with glitches, there are still parts of a game you actually have to do.

Here's a speedrun of Spyro 2. At one point it was world record. This isn't something you just do. It takes practice, and lots of it. It takes skill with the basic game mechanics on top of speedrunning strategies, and it takes dedication. I find it very disrespectful that you dismiss the hard work these people do just because they aren't playing the game the way you want them to.
008Zulu said:
He is obviously playing the game outside of the intended spirit of it.
The game wasn't intended to be played as fast as possible either.

By this logic, he shouldn't be speedrunning at all.
 

suitepee7

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Dec 6, 2010
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Caiphus said:
fear not, i was merely exaggerating for effect. as i explained in my later posts, the claim is fully legitimate in the right setting, but i still don't consider it beating the game.

SirBryghtside said:
Who's saying it is the whole game? It's the fastest category of speedrun, so it's the fastest run of the game. Make up as many rules you want about what 'the spirit of the game' entails, but saying he's the fastest person to beat - in this context meaning to get to the end of - Ocarina of Time is absolutely correct.
saying 'beat the game' as opposed to 'beat a section of a game' is the difference. yes it is technically the end of the game, and then the game is over, but i still wouldn't consider the game beaten if you skip to the end and clear the last bit. as i said before, it's like using a password system and just clearing the last stage. sure, there are no more stages following it, and the credits are rolling saying it is the end, but you've only beaten a small section of the game, and not the game itself.

as for who said it, the original story. "speed runner beats ocarina of time in less than 19 minutes". i shouldn't have to repeat it, but like i've said, this is a legitimate speed run. it is an impressive achievement by itself, but as far as i am concerned it is not beating the game. you clearly think otherwise and that's fine, but it seems to be the only point we're disagreeing on but considering it is an entirely subjective one it seems pointless to argue it.

mental note: never exaggerate for effect...
 

Caiphus

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Mar 31, 2010
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suitepee7 said:
fear not, i was merely exaggerating for effect. as i explained in my later posts, the claim is fully legitimate in the right setting, but i still don't consider it beating the game.
Well, thanks again for the reply. I myself fear that I shouldn't have opened my big mouth on this subject, where clearly people feel rather strongly about it. But yeah, like yourself, my main confusion is with language like in the title. If I was talking to my friends/brother/whoever about "beating a game" then it's only going to mean one thing: playing the game to near-full completion, ticking off all the major boxes, all that stuff.

But that has no effect on speedrunning, or people who care about it. When they say "beating the game" it means something entirely different. I'm hardly going to say "Hurfblurf, take away that man's achievement, he fell through the floor. Hrumph". When that's the whole point of their competition. But that's the source of confusion.

So really it's just a mistranslation. Which is roughly what you said. So yay! We agree. How about that. I'm not sure what Internet forum protocol is now. Do we oil each other up?
 

ExtraDebit

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Why not just use a hack and beat the game when pressing start? Beating a game using glitch should NOT be valid.
 

Roxas1359

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ExtraDebit said:
Why not just use a hack and beat the game when pressing start? Beating a game using glitch should NOT be valid.
This speed run in particular falls under the "Any%" category for speed runs and is valid for that section of speed runs. No one is comparing it to 100% or glitch less speed runs, which are also their own categories.

As for using a cheating device, I believe there is another section for times in emulators with each of the categories as well.
 

Eldritch Warlord

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Caiphus said:
Eldritch Warlord said:
people like you three
Woah, what? "People like you". I mentioned in my post that, and this was news to me, the speedruns were placed in separate categories. I never conflated the speedrun in the article with a 100% run. I specifically said that the speedrun in question was within the spirit of speedrunning, and accepted by that community, but that I personally wouldn't consider it beating the game.

But I'm fully prepared to accept that my opinion is completely different to you guys, and that it has no effect on speedrunning.

So yeah. I apologise if I was misunderstood. But come now. Let's not get offensive.
It was hastily worded on my part. "People who are ignorant about speed-runs" is more what I meant (and ignorance isn't bad as long as one is willing to learn).

Obviously I couldn't just say that no one compares any% and glitchless speed-runs directly because that's what you and the other people I was responding to were doing, and like I said I was writing that post in a hurry.

Whether or not this is "beating" the game is really just a pointless semantic debate. I believe most people would say that a game or portion of a game has been "beaten" when the game displays the "You Win" screen. In the case of Ocarina of Time that is the credits.
 

Caiphus

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Eldritch Warlord said:
Very well, thank you for clarifying. I'm studying at 3am so I'm probably just cranky.

And yes, it is a semantic debate. I never meant to be derogatory towards the man in the video, so I'm also sorry if I came across that way.
 

CriticalMiss

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Good on him, I remember back when the run was around the 26-30 minute mark and watching it get cut down pretty rapidly. It's amazing that glitches are still being found in a game that's this old but I guess that is what you get when people are looking so hard for them. I wonder if one day Wind Waker is going to even close to this short (it's currently four and a half hours).

And for people complaining about him not completing the entire game he also does a run that gets all of the medallions and I think beats all of the bosses (although he does it quickly so you'll probably still whine about it). Plus there are many different categories of speed runs for all kinds of games that include completing various tasks whilst ignoring others, even 100% runs to appease the easily offended.

ExtraDebit said:
Why not just use a hack and beat the game when pressing start? Beating a game using glitch should NOT be valid.
Because then it wouldn't require any effort and you would need to modify the game code. Exploiting bugs that already exist in the game is different and takes a lot of time and practise to pull them off consistently.
 
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008Zulu said:
Revnak said:
SirBryghtside said:
Neronium said:
cookyt said:
He is obviously playing the game outside of the intended spirit of it. But maybe you are all right. While we are at it, lets give back the medals to everyone who ever juiced at the Olympics.

Exploiting bugs/glitches is cheating. If he wants to set a legitimate record, have him go through the game properly.
er no...that's a horrible analogy. he isn't using a modded controller, every achievement he has in this game is from his own fortitude.

question for you and all who think him beating this game like this is not an achievement:

Do you not discount people who use the warps in super mario for speed runs? they are skipping entire worlds of content to speed run to the end, does that not bug you? these are called any% speedruns for a reason.
 

OldNewNewOld

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I think the title should be something like skipped the game instead of beats the game.
He basically skipped it. If for example someone beats everything except Ganon and then gives the controller to someone else and that someone else kills Ganon, would you say the first or the second person has beaten the game?
This guy has only finished the first boss and the last boss, nothing in between. He didn't beat the game.

While I know there is a glitch speedrun category, I will never acknowledge the category as "beating the game".

For a better example lets look at the old MegaMan games with the password system.

If I took a password that is basically right a the end of the game and just finished the final boss, would anyone consider it beating the game? I just exploited the game, nothing more.
 

lunavixen

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Ah yes, the any% run, I saw his 19 minute run last year, Cosmo is quite good, I honestly think that he'll eventually make the 18:45. but I doubt it'll get much faster than that.

To those griping about this not being 'legitimate', there are different categories of speedrunning, the most typical are Any%, Glitchless and 100% (there are game dependant categories like '16 star' in Mario 64 etc), this is a legit Any% run. I'm a glitchless and 100% runner myself.
 

Imperioratorex Caprae

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May 15, 2010
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008Zulu said:
I don't recognize his achievement. Exploiting glitches to beat a game should invalidate the entire effort.
I hear making excuses that exploiting glitches is the essence of speedruns, I don't agree. If it ain't legit, it don't fit. Just glitching to the endboss isn't an achievement or a speed run. Now if this SOB got all the items, hearts, spiders and other collectibles and the perfect Goron sword then yes its a fucking achievement if done in 19 mins.