Yeah, I totally believe that it's discs and not the fact they had to make the same MMO twice that has them in the shitter. Totally.
Square Enix: Disc Based Sales Are Killing Us
- Thread starter Karloff
- Start date
If companies could learn something along the lines of money management they would be in much better shape. Instead of just throwing millions of dollars at a game they intelligently figured out who they needed to market the game too, reduced ads to places where those types of people go, and used money intelligently on making the actual game they would do much better.
But no they just throw money at games and expect them to make a full return, or at least makes a good chunk of the money back. I mean come on. Did anybody at these companies ever learn money management????
But no they just throw money at games and expect them to make a full return, or at least makes a good chunk of the money back. I mean come on. Did anybody at these companies ever learn money management????
I recently replayed through FFVI, a lot (there were about 4 different playthroughs going on in my household at once and I was sort of the go to guy for it, knowing pretty much everything about the game) and let me tell you, through adult eyes, I was not very impressed. Don't get me wrong, I actually love the game, it's just that the most interesting things in the game (to me at least) were barely touched upon, and the ending immediately devolved into slapstick comedy..LadyLightning said:
i didn't remember all of the slapstick. It soured the entire experience for me. It had a chance for depth and it just spat all over it. I don't think I'll look at the game the same way.
nothing to do with the graphics, just something that's been on my mind lately
Yea i thought unreal engine, cryengine and so on were supposed to make game development easier and more efficient?
Where is the problem?
If gta 5 really cost 250 million to make that is insane for a game, at that cost it better be a 10/10 and run flawlessly to boot.
Somehow i doubt it will reach one of not both of those goals. Especially with their track record in the past on multi system releases.
Then we got basically all the major consoles using the same hardware for the first time ever, that alone should cut some dev costs. No more sony cell architecture making ports that much more difficult.
So what is the issue? run away salaries? people ordering too much beer and pizza at work? CEOs wanting to much pay for the actual work they do? Especially while they run a company into the ground? Ad budgets too large especially in the age of internet advertising, viral marketing there are viable alternatives to massive tv buys. Voice acting costing too much? how about find some no name new talent instead of hollywood stars that can go pimp your game for you with a known face.
I know programmers and artists and deisngers work long hard hours to make deadlines, but some of the stories this years have shown a clear trend in the industry to just shovel money at a game and then get fobbed off through the dev cycle, see gearbox sega and ACM.
There are clear problems in the industry, as a whole and as budgets get larger and larger despite the tools available, faster and faster computers, ahh the good old days when some filters in photoshop would take several minutes to apply. nm compiling maps and game assets on older pcs took hours if not days at times, when everything should be more efficient overall. Yet dev cycles grow larger and larger, budgets skyrocket.
Where is the problem?
If gta 5 really cost 250 million to make that is insane for a game, at that cost it better be a 10/10 and run flawlessly to boot.
Somehow i doubt it will reach one of not both of those goals. Especially with their track record in the past on multi system releases.
Then we got basically all the major consoles using the same hardware for the first time ever, that alone should cut some dev costs. No more sony cell architecture making ports that much more difficult.
So what is the issue? run away salaries? people ordering too much beer and pizza at work? CEOs wanting to much pay for the actual work they do? Especially while they run a company into the ground? Ad budgets too large especially in the age of internet advertising, viral marketing there are viable alternatives to massive tv buys. Voice acting costing too much? how about find some no name new talent instead of hollywood stars that can go pimp your game for you with a known face.
I know programmers and artists and deisngers work long hard hours to make deadlines, but some of the stories this years have shown a clear trend in the industry to just shovel money at a game and then get fobbed off through the dev cycle, see gearbox sega and ACM.
There are clear problems in the industry, as a whole and as budgets get larger and larger despite the tools available, faster and faster computers, ahh the good old days when some filters in photoshop would take several minutes to apply. nm compiling maps and game assets on older pcs took hours if not days at times, when everything should be more efficient overall. Yet dev cycles grow larger and larger, budgets skyrocket.
Here is a small tip Squeenix: how about you don't invest tens of millions of dollars on marketing your games and then expect absurd game sales (same thing happened with Dead Space 3).
Perhaps then you shouldn't say that 80%+ Metacritic scored games with 3.5 million copies sold was a failure.
Perhaps then you shouldn't say that 80%+ Metacritic scored games with 3.5 million copies sold was a failure.
All of these games sold reasonably well by the standards of other company projections, especially Tomb Raider which had both critical and admirable commercial success. It's insipid to blame not meeting unrealistic financial/profit figures on Disc sales and retailer practices.
I work for Gamestop, and when Tomb Raider dropped we had a significant number of pre-orders, off the rack sales, and almost no returns (at least at my store and other sister stores); There are plenty of other Triple-A titles I can think of that didn't have nearly that kind of success and I haven't seen their developers/publishers bitching about it or trying to shuck the blame.
So for Square-Enix to try to pin the failings of their greed on us? Fuck you. You have amazing and even beloved properties, that doesn't mean you're going to rake in 'Avengers' money on any of them no matter how well made they are/were.
I work for Gamestop, and when Tomb Raider dropped we had a significant number of pre-orders, off the rack sales, and almost no returns (at least at my store and other sister stores); There are plenty of other Triple-A titles I can think of that didn't have nearly that kind of success and I haven't seen their developers/publishers bitching about it or trying to shuck the blame.
So for Square-Enix to try to pin the failings of their greed on us? Fuck you. You have amazing and even beloved properties, that doesn't mean you're going to rake in 'Avengers' money on any of them no matter how well made they are/were.
Lower your budgets a bit, and maybe you might make more money? Smaller companies like the guys who made Chivalry celebrated one million copies and gave out free stuff due to it. I know being a smaller business means smaller budget, but these big guys of the industry could learn some humility, and take responsibility for their mistakes.
Something that has bugged me for quite some time whenever I see these game companies either accost physical retail stores or try to push digital distribution: Why not just sell the games from your own damn sites??? Would the cost of shipping these games across the country on demand REALLY cost more than what they're apparently losing by dealing with retail stores?
Another good idea would be to dial back the promotions for games they're working on. That was another problem Squenix had, wasn't it? Rampant, under-appreciated (or outright hated) promotions?AntiChrist said:
We didn't spend too much money consumers just didn't spend enough so we've decided to try nickeling and dimeing them with F2P titles
FU Square. The reason you are out of touch on projections, is that you expect the kind of sales the FF series got at its height pre 2000, way back when. You are investing far too much in the FF series, and taking far too long in making them. While the jury is out on if A Realm Reborn will pan out, this isn't the answer for all your games. I can picture some at other studios under Square rolling eyes.
I can agree that Steam might be the real answer. Make your game, get it to Steam and there's no printing discs. Only problem is that could be format restrictive. Square are banking too much on the F2P model, a market that's already flooded by better more inventive games. Not all game designs will play ball with this method. I just reeks of a huge developer like Square wanting their cake money before its cooked, while taking the piss out of smaller devs that need that money more.
Perhaps Square should consider letting Enix out of their stable through a sale, and save themselves some money. Enix in charge of their own destiny would be cool.
I can agree that Steam might be the real answer. Make your game, get it to Steam and there's no printing discs. Only problem is that could be format restrictive. Square are banking too much on the F2P model, a market that's already flooded by better more inventive games. Not all game designs will play ball with this method. I just reeks of a huge developer like Square wanting their cake money before its cooked, while taking the piss out of smaller devs that need that money more.
Perhaps Square should consider letting Enix out of their stable through a sale, and save themselves some money. Enix in charge of their own destiny would be cool.
No ,square enix, bloated game budgets is what killing you.
Disc shelf space is expensive, and so are your games. you know how to make peopel buy digital? make digital actually cheaper than retail. but no, thats not possible apperently.
Disc shelf space is expensive, and so are your games. you know how to make peopel buy digital? make digital actually cheaper than retail. but no, thats not possible apperently.
lacktheknack said:
It's not that easy is it? Gamers expect the Tomb Raider series to be of AAA quality, hence the budget will be massive. This is the problem with HD gaming as a whole. If you guys have paid attention, it's not only SquareEnix that is having trouble making profit, there are several developers that suffer under the same fate. This is also the reason why we have seen talented developers like the Liverpool Studio (Psygnosis) close, as their games no longer make the necessary profit. Selling one-two millions of Wipeout on the PS1 was perfectly fine, but selling the same amount of copies of WipeOut HD was not, so Sony shut them down.Super Not Cosmo said:
AAA HD gaming in it's current form is in many ways unsustainable.
>IVLadyLightning said:
>Awful, forced love-triangle drama over a chick with no personality
>Characters nobody cared about because they were about as deep as Keanu Reaves in any film he's in, including a fallen paladin trying to redeem himself but it's still boring because he's as interesting as a french fry with no ketchup
>Hilariously limited character customization, with each one being locked into set weapons/armors/skills, and for most of the game they rotate in and out beyond your ability to control them
>Only ninja introduced most of the way through the game, is a joke, hits weak as shit, throw command mostly useless until way later when you can finally buy good throwing items
>Annoying twins kill themselves, all the characters in the game mourning, me rejoicing that I don't have to put up with them anymore
>A flying whale ship
>V
>King from another world, convenient amnesia after one meteor trip despite multiple meteor trips in the future doing nothing of the sort to anyone
>Dad was
>Evil sorcerer with zero characterization, backstory and awful motive, less developed than the physical manifestation of religious oppression (Sin/Yu Yevon) and infinitely less developed than Sephiroth, only slightly better than Ultimecia from FF8 in terms of disconnection from the rest of the plot
>Every character and plot device taken straight out of the Book of Generic Game Cliches
>Grind-your-balls-off gameplay required for the few good abilities that all take 600 or 999 AP
>"objectively the best"
lol. that is all.
I can see 6 being a contender for best FF, but 4 and 5? Hahahahaahahahahha. VII was "objectively" better than both, with more characters with deeper stories, more development/background, the whole Materia system being hands down the best character combat customization in the entire FF franchise bar none, and a villain who is both tragically insane for understandable/explained reasons but also enough of a **** throughout enough of the story that the progression of the game flawlessly builds up to a final confrontation. Even Kefka, who was definitely an amusing/effective villain, was nowhere near as deep as Sephiroth. (He had a similarly developed backstory, but he was much less relateable and his insanity was often the source of comic relief - Sephiroth is never a comic relief character, which forces the player to take him more seriously throughout the game).
You've got some serious nostalgia goggles at work though, might want to get those checked.
Also...
>a flying whale ship.
So wait... LESS points of exchange between the distributor and the customer is what is lucrative? I always heard the greater access to sell something will return greater range of sales in every business course ive taken or corporate lecture ive suffered through.
Now lets really think about this. SE thinks "discs" are the problem, but what exactly is the difference from the alternative?
Disc based recordable media
Logistics and distribution.
Thats it. They are trying to put the blame onto disc based media that raw bulk costs will put at pennies out of the products cost and bulk shipping that again puts a few more pennies into its cost. So are we really to believe that out of say 4 million failing sales, your profit margins are being "gutted" by those comparatively microscopic expenditures compared to the hundreds of millions that 4 million sales would create (hypothetical: "normalized" 30$ sale price for a game released at 60$ x Z number of sales)
No, lets be real. The problem here is pushing development beyond the point of diminishing returns.
I do understand. I saw people clamoring for a new console generation in 08-09 when the generation was only 2-4 years old. So I can see where it "seems" like you MUST keep pushing the envelope further. If the extra effort put forth cannot match the potential increase in interest that effort will generate then it is a waste of energy. That energy in effect partially represents the profits. In a way it is sort of a "pay to win" type of strategy that can only really offer short term gains.
Now lets really think about this. SE thinks "discs" are the problem, but what exactly is the difference from the alternative?
Disc based recordable media
Logistics and distribution.
Thats it. They are trying to put the blame onto disc based media that raw bulk costs will put at pennies out of the products cost and bulk shipping that again puts a few more pennies into its cost. So are we really to believe that out of say 4 million failing sales, your profit margins are being "gutted" by those comparatively microscopic expenditures compared to the hundreds of millions that 4 million sales would create (hypothetical: "normalized" 30$ sale price for a game released at 60$ x Z number of sales)
No, lets be real. The problem here is pushing development beyond the point of diminishing returns.
I do understand. I saw people clamoring for a new console generation in 08-09 when the generation was only 2-4 years old. So I can see where it "seems" like you MUST keep pushing the envelope further. If the extra effort put forth cannot match the potential increase in interest that effort will generate then it is a waste of energy. That energy in effect partially represents the profits. In a way it is sort of a "pay to win" type of strategy that can only really offer short term gains.