Star Wars Episode 9.....The Rise of Skywalker.

[Johnny Novgorod]

Feel like they're gonna throw in something more threatening than just Kylo. Snoke kinda felt like he was that up until he got murdered. Not entirely sure how that would work out in the third movie tho. They had Palpatine's laugh at the end of the trailer but hard to smoothly fit him in for that.

Because of all their interactions so far I do think Kylo as like the big main threat falls flat and they need something more tho.

One Ghost Palpatine coming right up.

 

[twistedmic]

Feel like they're gonna throw in something more threatening than just Kylo. Snoke kinda felt like he was that up until he got murdered. Not entirely sure how that would work out in the third movie tho. They had Palpatine's laugh at the end of the trailer but hard to smoothly fit him in for that.

Because of all their interactions so far I do think Kylo as like the big main threat falls flat and they need something more tho.

One Ghost Palpatine coming right up.

Slots in nicely with ghost Luke and most likely ghost Yoda. We know Luke will be in the movie and he clearly mentions a ?We? in the trailer.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Feel like they're gonna throw in something more threatening than just Kylo. Snoke kinda felt like he was that up until he got murdered. Not entirely sure how that would work out in the third movie tho. They had Palpatine's laugh at the end of the trailer but hard to smoothly fit him in for that.

Because of all their interactions so far I do think Kylo as like the big main threat falls flat and they need something more tho.

One Ghost Palpatine coming right up.

Slots in nicely with ghost Luke and most likely ghost Yoda. We know Luke will be in the movie and he clearly mentions a ?We? in the trailer.

I don't really mind Palpatine ghosting his way into the movie so long as that doesn't make him the ultimate bad guy again. Otherwise we're just running in circles ala Kingdom Hearts where they have to kill the same villain over and over.

 

[Agema]

Neither possibility is overly appealing.

If the first is true, then the arc's already shot itself in the foot, because Rey's beat Kylo once already, arguably twice. Her beating Kylo at the end once and for all isn't going to nearly have as much oomph in it as, say, Luke vs. Vader.

I think what I'm sort of trying to say is that a narrative arc which starts with the hero beaten, going away and learning and then triumphing later is a very standard cliche, but not a required one.

Of course, if Palpy's got some sort of return as the trailer hints, Kylo could potentially be possessed by Palpatine's ghost (perhaps even invites it, because he knows he cannot beat Rey), thus Rey would be de facto beating the emperor at the end even if in Kylo's body.

If the second is true, then it's still not that appealing (in general, I'm really not pushing for a Kylo is redeemed arc). Kylo's had his chances - he had it with Han, he had it with Rey, he had it with Luke, and every time, he's embraced the Dark Side. To get redeemed now wouldn't work either from a narrative standpoint or from in-universe justification. I'm not against Kylo having regret for his actions or whatnot, but I'm not fond of the idea of him being full redeemed. Like, even if he dies like Vader, don't bring him back as a Force ghost for some warm and fuzzy feeling.

I'd agree that he's done so much wrong by now that redemption could be problematic. But then, Vader did a lot worse.

Oh, there could be another way, but I'm not fond of this argument. Yes, of course we know that John McClane will survive a Die Hard movie (unless it does a Logan on us or something), but if a film's presented well enough, then usually one won't be bothered by it. Like, we know on an instinctial level that the hero will win, but seeing them win is still engaging.

Yes, but that's the point. It's the execution of what we know is going to happen that matters, not that something happens.

 

[Hawki]

I'd agree that he's done so much wrong by now that redemption could be problematic. But then, Vader did a lot worse.

Vader did, but in the context of the OT by itself, the possibility of redemption doesn't even come up until the final film. Kylo's arguably not done as heinous acts as Vader, but in the context of the trilogy itself, he's turned down hands of forgiveness too many times for me to feel sorry for him at this point - least not sorry enough that I'm rooting for sunshines and rainbows at the end for him.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I'd agree that he's done so much wrong by now that redemption could be problematic. But then, Vader did a lot worse.

Vader did, but in the context of the OT by itself, the possibility of redemption doesn't even come up until the final film. Kylo's arguably not done as heinous acts as Vader, but in the context of the trilogy itself, he's turned down hands of forgiveness too many times for me to feel sorry for him at this point - least not sorry enough that I'm rooting for sunshines and rainbows at the end for him.

He killed Han and also Luke (kinda). He's not getting a happy ending.
Then again NO ONE'S EVER REALLY GONE. What the fuck do I know.

 

[Hawki]

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Then again NO ONE'S EVER REALLY GONE. What the fuck do I know.

Don't know what you know, but what I know (or believe) is that the line is being overanalyzed. Yes, Palpatine's coming back apparently, but I saw it more as a statement akin to "X will always be with you." Like, you have memories of loved ones and family, and they're never really gone in that context. That can apply to Rey at least, since she's lost people like Luke, Han, and Leia, all of whom she formed a bond with.

 

[Agema]

Vader did, but in the context of the OT by itself, the possibility of redemption doesn't even come up until the final film. Kylo's arguably not done as heinous acts as Vader, but in the context of the trilogy itself, he's turned down hands of forgiveness too many times for me to feel sorry for him at this point - least not sorry enough that I'm rooting for sunshines and rainbows at the end for him.

Agreed - Vader could work because he's saving his son's life; the product of him and the woman he loved, the woman he turned to the dark side thinking to save. Until that point, hoping his son would join him, we can argue he'd never had so deep a personal challenge to reconsider his actions.

I thought killing Han Solo made Kylo wobble more towards the light rather than the dark side of the force - he thought it would turn him fully to the dark and resolve his nagging guilt, fear and insecurity but it did the opposite. Although by the end of TLJ and his dealings with Rey it looks like he's back to the bad ways, and it would make a comeback harder to be convincing. It would probably make more sense for him to self-destruct in some way.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

I thought killing Han Solo made Kylo wobble more towards the light rather than the dark side of the force - he thought it would turn him fully to the dark and resolve his nagging guilt, fear and insecurity but it did the opposite. Although by the end of TLJ and his dealings with Rey it looks like he's back to the bad ways, and it would make a comeback harder to be convincing. It would probably make more sense for him to self-destruct in some way.

I'd argue that Kylo's actions in TLJ were all driven by a desire to not fall to the dark side completely. What he does is undeniably dark side, but in his own mind he's tearing down the old and false dichotomy between light and dark when he murders Snoke. He offers Rey a chance to be on his side, which she turns down despite his best efforts to make her realize he's not really a bad guy. In the end what he does is destructive, but not necessarily irredeemably so and even after he kills Snoke there's still signs of his struggle between the dark and the light. I'd be surprised if Kylo is firmly in the dark side camp in RoS, since his larger arc so far is that of someone who instinctively pulls towards the light but who's rash actions pushes him towards the dark side. That's not to say that he'll get a redemption, but rather that I think that Kylo's moral quandaries aren't over.

 

[Hawki]

I'd argue that Kylo's actions in TLJ were all driven by a desire to not fall to the dark side completely. What he does is undeniably dark side, but in his own mind he's tearing down the old and false dichotomy between light and dark when he murders Snoke. He offers Rey a chance to be on his side, which she turns down despite his best efforts to make her realize he's not really a bad guy. In the end what he does is destructive, but not necessarily irredeemably so and even after he kills Snoke there's still signs of his struggle between the dark and the light. I'd be surprised if Kylo is firmly in the dark side camp in RoS, since his larger arc so far is that of someone who instinctively pulls towards the light but who's rash actions pushes him towards the dark side. That's not to say that he'll get a redemption, but rather that I think that Kylo's moral quandaries aren't over.

I can agree with most of that bar the first statement. I don't think Kylo has any desire to not fall to the Dark Side compeltely, at least not in of itself. I actually think he's not even really thinking of the dichotomy between the two - he's not a Sith. He's arguably a Dark Jedi. But his stated goal is more "burn it all, let's start over."

Now, that's not the most original motivation in the world (how many villains in fiction operate under the premise of "the world can't be saved, it needs a do-over?), but I will give credit to the trilogy in that it's strongly hinted at in TFA via Maz that there's a constant cycle of Light and Dark that keeps manifesting itself. I'm guessing that Rise of Skywalker will actually solidify this in some way, but I don't think Kylo's thinking of that per se. He just wants to start again, damn the consequences of making that happen.

 

[Silvanus]

He offers Rey a chance to be on his side, which she turns down despite his best efforts to make her realize he's not really a bad guy.

Well, nor should she think that, because he is.

He kills Snoke, offers a shitty sales pitch about starting anew (without any elaboration or explanation about what that means), and then promptly begins ruling the First Order in precisely the same blindly militaristic fashion Snoke did.

His betrayal of Snoke was meaningless in terms of representing a new direction for him or the First Order. There's no reason she should place any trust in it or in him.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

\
Then again NO ONE'S EVER REALLY GONE. What the fuck do I know.

Don't know what you know, but what I know (or believe) is that the line is being overanalyzed. Yes, Palpatine's coming back apparently, but I saw it more as a statement akin to "X will always be with you." Like, you have memories of loved ones and family, and they're never really gone in that context. That can apply to Rey at least, since she's lost people like Luke, Han, and Leia, all of whom she formed a bond with.

That's probably true but it can just as easily apply to force ghosts.
Actually I just had a vision of ghost Luke, Leia and Han overlooking the good guys' victory party ala Anakin, Yoda and Obi-Wan at the end of Return of the Jedi. Ten bucks says those hacks go for it.

 

[Agema]

I'd argue that Kylo's actions in TLJ were all driven by a desire to not fall to the dark side completely. What he does is undeniably dark side, but in his own mind he's tearing down the old and false dichotomy between light and dark when he murders Snoke. He offers Rey a chance to be on his side, which she turns down despite his best efforts to make her realize he's not really a bad guy. In the end what he does is destructive, but not necessarily irredeemably so and even after he kills Snoke there's still signs of his struggle between the dark and the light. I'd be surprised if Kylo is firmly in the dark side camp in RoS, since his larger arc so far is that of someone who instinctively pulls towards the light but who's rash actions pushes him towards the dark side. That's not to say that he'll get a redemption, but rather that I think that Kylo's moral quandaries aren't over.

I think that deciding to stay on as Supreme Leader and wage war on the galaxy is kind of a bad sign. Rey offered him an out - someone like himself (in ways at least) to make a new start with, but his rejection of that and going straight back into tyrant mode I believe makes it difficult to reverse. Maybe it just needs Leia to give him a big hug like he's been missing all those years.

 

[gorfias]

She does? Don't remember that (mind you, I wasn't entirely engrossed in it).

She did. Another one of my problems with TLJ. Despite being often called a "brave and subversive" twist to SW formula, it likes to have its cake, and eat it.[/quote]\
It really came close to ending the light/dark dichotomy. Kylo offers to be with Rey and do something new. She declines. How different 9 would have been had she accepted. Would she become relatively evil and need a redemption arc? What would Kylo's path be like? We'll never know because they balked and went back to light dark. Nothing new.

 

[Tireseas_v1legacy]

She did. Another one of my problems with TLJ. Despite being often called a "brave and subversive" twist to SW formula, it likes to have its cake, and eat it.

It really came close to ending the light/dark dichotomy. Kylo offers to be with Rey and do something new. She declines. How different 9 would have been had she accepted. Would she become relatively evil and need a redemption arc? What would Kylo's path be like? We'll never know because they balked and went back to light dark. Nothing new.

I don't think they've quite eliminated that possibility yet. Like I mentioned above, something fundamental about the Jedi/Sith divide has changed as a result of TLJ, one that I think is for the better. Kylo clearly harbors some light-side tenancies, while Rey is not fearful of the dark in the way traditional Jedi are (the darkside cave in TLJ was not the fearful vision of Luke's potential future in ESB, but something truly illuminating about who she was; her first contact with the darkside has no hesitation to pursue down that path; etc.). They also seem to still be connected by the force at the end, which could open the door to more of a change of the light/dark dynamics as well (ala the Ancient One in Doctor Strange).

And as a side-note, the force-connection and a fairly critical view of the Jedi/Sith paradigm kind of calls back to easily one of the best EU stories even written: KotOR II: The Sith Lords. The galaxy is in a similar state of chaos and dread, but neither the Republic, Jedi, nor the Sith[footnote]TOR MMO retcons the KotOR Sith into more of an isolated group lead by Revan, rather than the actual Sith Empire that was sequestered and hidden on Dromund Kaas. By The Sith Lords, the Revan Sith are as shattered as everyone else and led by a pair of Sith Lords who might as well be treating them like thralls or cultists; while the handful of Jedi masters who remain are in hiding across the galaxy more wallowing in their failure than any fear on their part.[/footnote] are in any position to do much more than take swipes at each other corpses, if that. But most importantly was Kreia's critical view of the force, particularly those who adhere to the Jedi and Sith codes, that elevated the narrative beyond a feel-good tale of good and evil. TLJ has that criticism baked into its plot and I remain very curious about where it will end.

 

[Pyrian]

What he does is undeniably dark side, but in his own mind he's tearing down the old and false dichotomy between light and dark when he murders Snoke.

Hmm. Killing your master is an ancient Sith tradition, though it seems to catch them remarkably off-guard each time it inevitably happens. I wonder if the Knights of Ren know about that, or have their own tradition in that regard? As an organization they just aren't really discussed.

 

[Palindromemordnilap_v1legacy]

What he does is undeniably dark side, but in his own mind he's tearing down the old and false dichotomy between light and dark when he murders Snoke.

Hmm. Killing your master is an ancient Sith tradition, though it seems to catch them remarkably off-guard each time it inevitably happens. I wonder if the Knights of Ren know about that, or have their own tradition in that regard? As an organization they just aren't really discussed.

I mean catching them off-guard is just good practice. I feel you've not understood Sith morality if you go in trying to make it a fair fight