Star Wars Episode 9.....The Rise of Skywalker.

[MrCalavera_v1legacy]

What is there to be excited for?

Sheev, baby!

I'm only half-joking here. I think i will see the movie. Mostly, because i am morbidly curious what are JJs plans, for what TLJ left him with. But Ian McDiarmid was one of the few good things about the prequels, so i'm hoping he'll be as hammy here as he was in ROTS.

 

[Marik2]

https://www.escapistmagazine.com/v2/2019/04/15/rise-of-sigh-walker/

 

[Chimpzy_v1legacy]

Sheev, baby!

I'm only half-joking here. I think i will see the movie. Mostly, because i am morbidly curious what are JJs plans, for what TLJ left him with. But Ian McDiarmid was one of the few good things about the prequels, so i'm hoping he'll be as hammy here as he was in ROTS.

Hell yeah, I'm also totally on board with the Emperor returning. I want Ian McDiarmid to voraciously chew every bit of scenery he's in. Every square centimeter of set that doesn't have teethmarks on it, is one centimeter too much.

 

[gorfias]

https://www.escapistmagazine.com/v2/2019/04/15/rise-of-sigh-walker/

He seems sarcastic about the idea that Kathleen Kennedy et. al. went about making these movies with no road map but that seems likely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceb37npZCEk

I do like his noting that plot guessing is a waste of time. Pirates of the Caribbean 3 convinced me of that. 2 made me guess so much, trying to figure out logical explanations for things I thought 3 would be explaining. Nope.

So, who knows what this is going to be about.

 

[Hawki]

Since people have brought it up, I won't quote anyone, but on the subject of Ben vs. Rey in TFA:

Yes, I'm well aware that Ben has suffered a laser blast to the stomach, emotional trauma, and arguably isn't even giving it his all. However, I would like to make the following points:

-Rey's got no training whatsoever, either in the use of the Force or a lightsaber. Whatever disadvantages Kylo has, she has them of her own.

-That she can overcome these advantages so rapidly is noticable, especially if we confine this to the films, where prior characters (Anakin and Luke) needed to spend great deals of time to hone their skills (if you want another example of this concept, look at DBZ, with the whole "anyone can be a super saiyan" thing post-Namek after it was originally so hard to do - freaking children go super saiyan later on!)

-Those two points aside, it's a big mistake in my mind to have Rey beat Kylo here, because it's undercutting their relationship as protagonist and antagonist. If we have a trilogy, and the protagonist beats the antagonist in the first and second installment, then what reason do we have to fear things being different in the third part? Maybe they'll do something clever, maybe not. But compare this to the Luke vs. Vader dynamic in the OT:

A New Hope: Luke sees Vader 'kill' his mentor, is powerless to stop him, and only survives the trench run because of Han

Empire Strikes Back: After training, Luke faces Vader. He's powerful, but he's completely overwhelmed by Vader at the end.

Return of the Jedi: Luke finally defeats Vader, but at the cost of nearly succumbing to the Dark Side, and is saved by Vader in turn from the Emperor.

Luke and Vader have an arc in the OT, with Luke steadily doing better each time. The Rey/Kylo thing would be if Luke faced Vader in a lightsaber duel in ANH, and won. That doesn't preclude the later films from happening, but it would undercut them a lot if we'd seen Luke beat Vader in the first go.

So, yeah. Even if we cast aside in-universe semantics, it was a big mistake to have Rey beat Ben in TFA, because it basically shoots their narrative arc in the foot.

 

[Agema]

Now you have me fantasizing about the Broccolis taking over Star Wars. "The name's Solo. Han Solo."

I'll have a Dilorgian martini - quark accelerated, not tachyon wave disrupted.

So, yeah. Even if we cast aside in-universe semantics, it was a big mistake to have Rey beat Ben in TFA, because it basically shoots their narrative arc in the foot.

I agree that Rey needing no significant training to compete was poor and inconsistent storytelling in terms of previous films, although her ability to equal Kylo is consistent with her implausible pre-packaged abilities. Maybe the force power entered her through the lightsabre - after all, the magical device that empowers its user with skill and knowledge (of previous wielders?) is hardly the rarest fantasy trope.

However, I don't think it doesn't make a blind bit of difference that she came out better in the first encounter. If Rey vs. Kylo is the narrative arc, she will either win in the end, or Kylo will do a Vader (Vader is, after all, his idol) and turn to the light when faced with a resurgent Palpatine/Snoke. There would never be any other way. It's like if they were to announce a new Die Hard movie: you know John McClane's going to get beaten around a lot before painfully pulling through and nailing the bad guy in a showdown at the end. And you know that before they'd even started production.

That said, what if the narrative arc isn't Rey vs. Kylo in a winner-takes-all for the future of the Force? Imagine instead it is two parallel bildungromans - Rey and Kylo - who struggle through in their different ways and maybe end up coming to the same point as allies. Perhaps the vaunted "balance to the force" is ending good Jedi versus evil Sith, and replacing it with new order of Force Users, perhaps more nuanced and neutral. The Jedi are already now gone (Ep 8 was "The Last Jedi", after all) and their texts burned. That just leaves one last returning Sith as a villain (for dramatic satisfaction and to prompt Rey/Kylo alliance) to eliminate, and it's a completely fresh start.

 

[twistedmic]

The Jedi are already now gone (Ep 8 was "The Last Jedi", after all) and their texts burned. That just leaves one last returning Sith as a villain (for dramatic satisfaction and to prompt Rey/Kylo alliance) to eliminate, and it's a completely fresh start.

The texts didn't burn, only the tree did. Rey has the Jedi texts with her on the Falcon.

 

[Casual Shinji]

snip

Except that Kylo Ren isn't really the Darth Vader of TFA. He's clearly depicted as a kid (the same age as Rey) who desperately wants to be Darth Vader. His whole image, with the helmet, the black cloak, and the voice modifier, is a spiel because he's an insecure brat. The purpose of the first movie was to show that he's NOT the intimidating Vader antagonist that Rey (and the audience) might've initially believed he was. Rey even calls him out on it. Kylo being sent home with his tale between his legs by Rey is not undercutting the dynamic, it's establishing the dynamic.

 

[Agema]

The texts didn't burn, only the tree did. Rey has the Jedi texts with her on the Falcon.

She does? Don't remember that (mind you, I wasn't entirely engrossed in it).

 

[MrCalavera_v1legacy]

The texts didn't burn, only the tree did. Rey has the Jedi texts with her on the Falcon.

She does? Don't remember that (mind you, I wasn't entirely engrossed in it).

She did. Another one of my problems with TLJ. Despite being often called a "brave and subversive" twist to SW formula, it likes to have its cake, and eat it.

 

[Trunkage]

The texts didn't burn, only the tree did. Rey has the Jedi texts with her on the Falcon.

She does? Don't remember that (mind you, I wasn't entirely engrossed in it).

She did. Another one of my problems with TLJ. Despite being often called a "brave and subversive" twist to SW formula, it likes to have its cake, and eat it.

Id agree. I made a list of how many things were apeing Empire and its most of the movie. It might be in a different order but most of it's still there.

Betrayed by new character?
AT-ATs on white?
Almost destroying the Rebels?
Space chase?
Useless hyperdrive?
Characters going on seperate adventures?
Useless side adventures B characters go on?
Jedi training?
Mirror images?
Jedis are made out to be bad?
Family relation relevation?

It copied Empire so much, I'm suprised someone didn't get their hand cut off.

 

[Palindromemordnilap_v1legacy]

The texts didn't burn, only the tree did. Rey has the Jedi texts with her on the Falcon.

She does? Don't remember that (mind you, I wasn't entirely engrossed in it).

We see them briefly in her bag when Finn goes through them looking for meds for Rose

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Sheev, baby!

I'm only half-joking here. I think i will see the movie. Mostly, because i am morbidly curious what are JJs plans, for what TLJ left him with. But Ian McDiarmid was one of the few good things about the prequels, so i'm hoping he'll be as hammy here as he was in ROTS.

Hell yeah, I'm also totally on board with the Emperor returning. I want Ian McDiarmid to voraciously chew every bit of scenery he's in. Every square centimeter of set that doesn't have teethmarks on it, is one centimeter too much.

Considering half the old EU is "clone of somebody gets up to shenanigans", I'm surprised they've gone 4 movies and a TV show without mentioning them. (Outside Captain Rex and cohorts)

 

[Hawki]

However, I don't think it doesn't make a blind bit of difference that she came out better in the first encounter. If Rey vs. Kylo is the narrative arc, she will either win in the end, or Kylo will do a Vader (Vader is, after all, his idol) and turn to the light when faced with a resurgent Palpatine/Snoke.

Neither possibility is overly appealing.

If the first is true, then the arc's already shot itself in the foot, because Rey's beat Kylo once already, arguably twice. Her beating Kylo at the end once and for all isn't going to nearly have as much oomph in it as, say, Luke vs. Vader.

If the second is true, then it's still not that appealing (in general, I'm really not pushing for a Kylo is redeemed arc). Kylo's had his chances - he had it with Han, he had it with Rey, he had it with Luke, and every time, he's embraced the Dark Side. To get redeemed now wouldn't work either from a narrative standpoint or from in-universe justification. I'm not against Kylo having regret for his actions or whatnot, but I'm not fond of the idea of him being full redeemed. Like, even if he dies like Vader, don't bring him back as a Force ghost for some warm and fuzzy feeling.

There would never be any other way. It's like if they were to announce a new Die Hard movie: you know John McClane's going to get beaten around a lot before painfully pulling through and nailing the bad guy in a showdown at the end. And you know that before they'd even started production.

Oh, there could be another way, but I'm not fond of this argument. Yes, of course we know that John McClane will survive a Die Hard movie (unless it does a Logan on us or something), but if a film's presented well enough, then usually one won't be bothered by it. Like, we know on an instinctial level that the hero will win, but seeing them win is still engaging.

That said, what if the narrative arc isn't Rey vs. Kylo in a winner-takes-all for the future of the Force? Imagine instead it is two parallel bildungromans - Rey and Kylo - who struggle through in their different ways and maybe end up coming to the same point as allies. Perhaps the vaunted "balance to the force" is ending good Jedi versus evil Sith, and replacing it with new order of Force Users, perhaps more nuanced and neutral. The Jedi are already now gone (Ep 8 was "The Last Jedi", after all) and their texts burned. That just leaves one last returning Sith as a villain (for dramatic satisfaction and to prompt Rey/Kylo alliance) to eliminate, and it's a completely fresh start.

It's technically possible, but how does one reconcile this with Last Jedi? Kylo didn't leave with Rey then. That doesn't preclude him from doing this in Ep. 9. I think some of this will come to pass (e.g. the idea of Force users being called "Skywalkers,"), but I don't think it's a future that Kylo needs to take part in.

Except that Kylo Ren isn't really the Darth Vader of TFA. He's clearly depicted as a kid (the same age as Rey) who desperately wants to be Darth Vader. His whole image, with the helmet, the black cloak, and the voice modifier, is a spiel because he's an insecure brat. The purpose of the first movie was to show that he's NOT the intimidating Vader antagonist that Rey (and the audience) might've initially believed he was. Rey even calls him out on it. Kylo being sent home with his tale between his legs by Rey is not undercutting the dynamic, it's establishing the dynamic.

And is that a good dynamic from a narrative sense?

I actually agree with everything you say in terms of Kylo Ren there. It's actually an idea that I find interesting, that unlike past villians, he's insecure. But by its nature, it undercuts the antagonist-protagonist dynamic. You could keep Kylo's character and still not have him outright lose.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Except that Kylo Ren isn't really the Darth Vader of TFA. He's clearly depicted as a kid (the same age as Rey) who desperately wants to be Darth Vader. His whole image, with the helmet, the black cloak, and the voice modifier, is a spiel because he's an insecure brat. The purpose of the first movie was to show that he's NOT the intimidating Vader antagonist that Rey (and the audience) might've initially believed he was. Rey even calls him out on it. Kylo being sent home with his tale between his legs by Rey is not undercutting the dynamic, it's establishing the dynamic.

And is that a good dynamic from a narrative sense?

I actually agree with everything you say in terms of Kylo Ren there. It's actually an idea that I find interesting, that unlike past villians, he's insecure. But by its nature, it undercuts the antagonist-protagonist dynamic. You could keep Kylo's character and still not have him outright lose.

Yes, if you build off it properly, which TLJ didn't do. The Last Jedi should've functioned as the darker entry that smacked a confident Rey back down to Earth by either a Kylo who has found his own voice, or a totally new villain all together.

 

[Hawki]

Yes, if you build off it properly, which TLJ didn't do. The Last Jedi should've functioned as the darker entry that smacked a confident Rey back down to Earth by either a Kylo who has found his own voice, or a totally new villain all together.

But Rey is smacked down to Earth. She gets a reality check in her belief that "hey, if I just do what Luke did with Vader, Ben'll be a good guy again!" And Kylo does find his own voice in that he charts his own path, his goal being to "burn it all, start again."

 

[Casual Shinji]

Yes, if you build off it properly, which TLJ didn't do. The Last Jedi should've functioned as the darker entry that smacked a confident Rey back down to Earth by either a Kylo who has found his own voice, or a totally new villain all together.

But Rey is smacked down to Earth. She gets a reality check in her belief that "hey, if I just do what Luke did with Vader, Ben'll be a good guy again!" And Kylo does find his own voice in that he charts his own path, his goal being to "burn it all, start again."

Not really. Rey just gets disilusioned in Luke, but then lifts a bunch of rocks to save the Rebelion, and that's the end of her arc in the movie. And Kylo teases breaking off from the Star Wars norm, wanting to leave all this neverending silliness behind to forge his own path, asking Rey to come join him (the most interesting Star Wars has ever dared to get), but then in the end he returns to being typical bad guy man who whats to kill the good guys. Ugh, fuck that movie.

 

[Tireseas_v1legacy]

Yes, if you build off it properly, which TLJ didn't do. The Last Jedi should've functioned as the darker entry that smacked a confident Rey back down to Earth by either a Kylo who has found his own voice, or a totally new villain all together.

But Rey is smacked down to Earth. She gets a reality check in her belief that "hey, if I just do what Luke did with Vader, Ben'll be a good guy again!" And Kylo does find his own voice in that he charts his own path, his goal being to "burn it all, start again."

Not really. Rey just gets disilusioned in Luke, but then lifts a bunch of rocks to save the Rebelion, and that's the end of her arc in the movie. And Kylo teases breaking off from the Star Wars norm, wanting to leave all this neverending silliness behind to forge his own path, asking Rey to come join him (the most interesting Star Wars has ever dared to get), but then in the end he returns to being typical bad guy man who whats to kill the good guys. Ugh, fuck that movie.

While I really liked TLJ (particularly as someone who thought that Luke's arc in it bordered on perfect, and as someone who actually likes some of the more main-stream portions of the EU, notably the Old Republic lore), I think there's an interesting alternative plot towards the end where Rey, instead of refusing to join him, instead agrees to go with him, not as a apprentice to a master, but as a partner, each learning from the other as they discover that neither light nor dark is fundamentally the way towards balance. She does this demanding that Kylo and the First Order break off their attack and leave the Resistance to fight another day "because if I'm wrong about you, then they will finish this" or something like that.

That said, that would probably be one step too far for even Star Wars, which tends to value heroism over inquisitiveness and compromise, which is fine. The last scene at Krayt still works, even if it feels a bit too much like the Hoth attack (which works with another theme of Star Wars: cyclical history), as it wraps up other key areas such as Luke's, Rose's (ish) and Finn's.

But I think the biggest and arguably the most important thing that TLJ did was open the door for something beyond the millennia-old conflict between the Jedi and the Sith. The Sith, barely alive even when they controlled the Galactic Empire, are all but extinguished due to their constant hunger and quest for power, with Snoke effectively being the last real practitioner and Kylo, who has not earned the title Darth as of yet, seemingly uninterested in pursuing it himself. Meanwhile, the Jedi, once one of the most powerful organizations in the galaxy, fell due to their arrogance, insular community, stagnancy, and corruption, with even Luke, in the brief moment of weakness, discovering the folly of such an approach to the Force.

Herein, the title is appropriate: Luke is the Last Jedi, and now it is time for someone new to replace the order that has failed the galaxy time and again with one better suited to leading it forward.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Feel like they're gonna throw in something more threatening than just Kylo. Snoke kinda felt like he was that up until he got murdered. Not entirely sure how that would work out in the third movie tho. They had Palpatine's laugh at the end of the trailer but hard to smoothly fit him in for that.

Because of all their interactions so far I do think Kylo as like the big main threat falls flat and they need something more tho.

 

[Hawki]

Not really. Rey just gets disilusioned in Luke, but then lifts a bunch of rocks to save the Rebelion, and that's the end of her arc in the movie. And Kylo teases breaking off from the Star Wars norm, wanting to leave all this neverending silliness behind to forge his own path, asking Rey to come join him (the most interesting Star Wars has ever dared to get), but then in the end he returns to being typical bad guy man who whats to kill the good guys. Ugh, fuck that movie.

That's really underselling the arc Rey has - her arc is based around, broadly put, not to overly rely on legends, and coming to terms with her parent issues. This is seen with her disappointment with Luke, her refusal to accept the truth about her parents right up till Kylo tells her, and her attempt to redeem him under the premise that because it worked once, it'll work again. Kylo arguably doesn't have an arc, but that's kind of the point, or rather...

Okay, the theme of TLJ is "failure," and how we learn from it. It's a theme that's baked into the arcs of Rey, Finn, Poe, and Luke. Kylo arguably doesn't learn anything from failure, but I don't think that's an oversight.