Star Wars Force Awakens Spoiler Filled discussion thread (no spoiler tags, you've been warned)

[Zontar]

I just realized something: Rey is filler that could easily be written out of the plot.

Think about it: all she does is point BB9 towards an outpost, flies the Falcon, saves Finn from a situation everyone knows is pointless filler, gets captured, immediately escapes and then gets into a fight with Kylo.

Here's the thing though, Finn could easily have all the set pieces for the plot happen without her being there. Outside of needing a pilot for the escape from Jakku she could be removed completely. Have someone, anyone, pilot the Falcon for that one scene and change Finn's motivation for helping the Resistance be genuinely wanting to help and boom, you've written one of the dual protagonists out of the movie completely.

 

[Zhukov]

I have seen it! I can wander the internet unafraid once again!

Oh, the movie?

Ehhhh... it was alright. Kept me entertained for the duration.

Jesus Christ though, the rehash is real!

I was expecting it to be drenched in nostalgia and callbacks, but that was fucking next level. I understand their business reasons for playing it safe, but that's in a safety league all of its own. They damn near just remade the original movie.

Well, now that it's made metric fuckton of cash maybe they'll grow some balls for the next one.

 

[McElroy]

Well, now that it's made metric fuckton of cash maybe they'll grow some balls for the next one.

Search your feelings and you'll know it's NOT true.

It was alright. Rey's supersensitivity to the force was ridiculous and actually so was Kylo surviving that bowcaster shot. The tentacle monsters were dumb CGI, but a lot of the other stuff looked really nice. They make flashy spectacle for the kids. I shouldn't really think too much about it. Twitch chat spoiled the Han Yolo, though I was kinda certain he would've kicked it anyway.

 

[Zhukov]

Also another thing, considering the fight, I wonder if she'll ever get actually hurt or lose a limb, because female mutilation is far worse then male mutilation for our society, and I doubt the writers have the balls to do that.

Damn right!

Can you imagine the reaction to a female character missing a limb?

Our oversensitive society would buckle under the weight of the ensuing outrage! There would be blood! The SJWs would riot in the streets!

No script writer would ever dare allow such a shocking spectacle to make the screen.

Spoiler: Oh wait.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Also another thing, considering the fight, I wonder if she'll ever get actually hurt or lose a limb, because female mutilation is far worse then male mutilation for our society, and I doubt the writers have the balls to do that.

Damn right!

Can you imagine the reaction to a female character missing a limb?

Our oversensitive society would buckle under the weight of the ensuing outrage! There would be blood! The SJWs would riot in the streets!

No script writer would ever dare allow such a shocking spectacle to make the screen.

Spoiler: Oh wait.

To say nothing of the fact that "mutilation" in the Star Wars universe tends to be a rather short term proposition. It's not like we watch ol' Stumpy Skywalker running around for ROTJ. He has a new, entirely human looking hand back within about five minutes of losing the previous one.

There are actually very few setbacks inside the Star Wars OT universe that have any real staying power. Both Ben Kenobi and Yoda are back in short order as instructive Force Ghosts. Han is out of the carbonite with no real ill effects beside some brief wooziness in the first act of the next film (if it was a TV serial, he'd have been out of commission for about half an episode), both Droids get shot up but reassembled without any lasting harm, Luke has a fully functional and completely normal looking hand back at the end of Empire, his Wampa beating is covered by 3 seconds of screen time in a Kolto tank, etc, etc.

They're not exactly the Saw franchise when it comes to putting the protagonists through the wringer.

 

[TheRightToArmBears]

I just realized something: Rey is filler that could easily be written out of the plot.

Think about it: all she does is point BB9 towards an outpost, flies the Falcon, saves Finn from a situation everyone knows is pointless filler, gets captured, immediately escapes and then gets into a fight with Kylo.

Here's the thing though, Finn could easily have all the set pieces for the plot happen without her being there. Outside of needing a pilot for the escape from Jakku she could be removed completely. Have someone, anyone, pilot the Falcon for that one scene and change Finn's motivation for helping the Resistance be genuinely wanting to help and boom, you've written one of the dual protagonists out of the movie completely.

Except Finn would be hacked to pieces by Kylo Ren?

 

[Zontar]

Except Finn would be hacked to pieces by Kylo Ren?

After he gets slashed like he did in the movie you could always have THAT be the point where the planet collapsing separate them. The fight would be a little anti-climactic and one sided, sure, but then again that's exactly how it should be for the first encounter.

 

[Lightknight]

I saw the movie. It felt like a true sequel which was really what we wanted. I think he did a perfect job giving it that old star wars universe feel. If there's any complaint I have, it's the way he managed time in the movie. It felt like the events from when Finn ran into Rey to the destruction of the death planet was all within the span of 1 day.

Let me express the timeline as I saw it and you guys can help me out if I missed a period where there would actually have been a lapse in time:

Finn and Rey meet up and immediately jump in the Millenium Falcon and the moment they get into space are captured by Han Solo who magically found them right away and was in place to do it despite not having had the falcon for a decade or more. They then immediately got attacked by Han's business partners and had to flee in the falcon during which they had a single conversation which ended in them landing on that lush planet with the cantina (should have been a five day journey according to fans). They dicked around the cantina for a bit before they were attacked and Rey was ferreted away to the death star while Finn met up with the rebel base right away. Finn just told them about the base and offered to go while Rey woke up for what appears to be the first time during which Fin and Solo went straight to the death planet since it was starting to charge and would be done in a few hours (two?) which constrains the length of time Rey would have been hiding or Finn and Solo would have been on the rebel base prepping for flight.

Anyone else get that ridiculous vibe? We didn't get any kind of real travel dialog. No playing chess or training or anything. Absolutely no breaths.

I know it's a movie and he likes to keep it all action. But that was a bit extreme. The only points we don't know about are how long it was from the initial attack on the village to Finn and the pilot crashing on the planet to how long Finn wandered before finding Rey. Beyond that it's hard to see any breathers. That's what broke immersion for me the most. The old films had a real sense of time where one side or the other was licking wounds and getting more powerful.

Beyond that we just have a handful of silly coincidences but eh, same with the original.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Anyone else get that ridiculous vibe? We didn't get any kind of real travel dialog. No playing chess or training or anything. Absolutely no breaths.

I don't know that I'd classify it as "ridiculous" but the film definitely had pacing issues, yes. Too many characters, not enough running time. Badly in need of some slow/character building moments. New Hope profited by being a much leaner film in terms of narrative ambition (only one real primary character, little time given over to the bad guys, no set up to do as it was made as a stand alone).

 

[Lightknight]

Anyone else get that ridiculous vibe? We didn't get any kind of real travel dialog. No playing chess or training or anything. Absolutely no breaths.

I don't know that I'd classify it as "ridiculous" but the film definitely had pacing issues, yes. Too many characters, not enough running time. Badly in need of some slow/character building moments. New Hope profited by being a much leaner film in terms of narrative ambition (only one real primary character, little time given over to the bad guys, no set up to do as it was made as a stand alone).

Yeah, a major component of those breathers is the characterization. He tried to show us who they were through their actions but it just didn't come across this. From my perception, Finn had known Rey for 30 minutes before they were best friends and he was all googli-eyes at her to the point of being willing to die for her. I mean, 30 minutes and you're telling someone that no one has ever looked at you like them before?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Yeah, a major component of those breathers is the characterization. He tried to show us who they were through their actions but it just didn't come across this. From my perception, Finn had known Rey for 30 minutes before they were best friends and he was all googli-eyes at her to the point of being willing to die for her. I mean, 30 minutes and you're telling someone that no one has ever looked at you like them before?

While Star Wars has always featured extraordinarily accelerated bonding (Luke freaking out over the Death of Obi-Wan, a guy he met for the first time literally THE DAY PRIOR, Han and Luke and Leia all bonding over the course of a single high-stress adventure, etc, etc) Rey and Finn do seem to get along extremely rapidly. This was a conscious choice by Abrams that he discussed in an interview. Apparently they had tremendous off-screen chemistry as friends, and he wanted to translate that into the film. He actually re-shot all of their early scenes together for that reason.

It makes SOME sense given their respective characterizations. Rey is lonely, starved for affection/family, and clearly yearns for adventure. Finn is a NEW FRIEND. Han is a FATHER FIGURE. She's like a puppy with both of them, eager to show off and get approval. Finn has spent his entire life in a repressive, dehumanizing regime. His first interaction with the effusive Poe Dameron delights him, and Rey treats him like a mysterious and exciting Resistance Fighter, and not like Stormtrooper 7,551 or whatever. He seems to imprint on everyone he meets. Like Rey, everyone is an exciting NEW FRIEND. Both Finn and Rey are like "kid" inserts without actually being kids (thank god).

Which is not to say the characterization isn't rushed...it clearly is...just that there's room inside their existing characterization to rationalize how impressionable and quick with affection they are. Conversely, you could also have made both of them bitter, reclusive and suspicious for the same reasons, but that would've made for a very different (and not very Star-Wars-y) film.

 

[Lightknight]

Yeah, a major component of those breathers is the characterization. He tried to show us who they were through their actions but it just didn't come across this. From my perception, Finn had known Rey for 30 minutes before they were best friends and he was all googli-eyes at her to the point of being willing to die for her. I mean, 30 minutes and you're telling someone that no one has ever looked at you like them before?

While Star Wars has always featured extraordinarily accelerated bonding (Luke freaking out over the Death of Obi-Wan, a guy he met for the first time literally THE DAY PRIOR, Han and Luke and Leia all bonding over the course of a single high-stress adventure, etc, etc) Rey and Finn do seem to get along extremely rapidly. This was a conscious choice by Abrams that he discussed in an interview. Apparently they had tremendous off-screen chemistry as friends, and he wanted to translate that into the film. He actually re-shot all of their early scenes together for that reason.

Obi-Wan was Luke's only connection to his father and was the only offering Luke had of a new life he craved. With the death of Kenobi Luke saw not only the death of a connection to his past but also the withering promise of a future of adventure and even power. He has no idea if he's going to survive the fight at hand and even if he does what will happen. I don't think he even knows about Yoda yet.

They also had a few minor adventures together and there was a sense of time having passed, but everything else should warrant that kind of response.

It makes SOME sense given their respective characterizations. Rey is lonely, starved for affection/family, and clearly yearns for adventure. Finn is a NEW FRIEND. Han is a FATHER FIGURE. She's like a puppy with both of them, eager to show off and get approval. Finn has spent his entire life in a repressive, dehumanizing regime. His first interaction with the effusive Poe Dameron delights him, and Rey treats him like a mysterious and exciting Resistance Fighter, and not like Stormtrooper 7,551 or whatever. He seems to imprint on everyone he meets. Like Rey, everyone is an exciting NEW FRIEND. Both Finn and Rey are like "kid" inserts without actually being kids (thank god).

Someone kicking your ass next to a bot that is shocking you comes across as being treated as a mysterious and exciting resistance fighter? Aside from that, she didn't have time to treat him as anything so much as run to a ship with him and try to fly away. I'd say this is a pretty big stretch. He was basically getting his face all rod punched one moment then in space telling her he'd never had anyone look at him that way before in a matter of minutes. If Abrams did reshoot the scenes then he made a mistake.

Which is not to say the characterization isn't rushed...it clearly is...just that there's room inside their existing characterization to rationalize how impressionable and quick with affection they are. Conversely, you could also have made both of them bitter, reclusive and suspicious for the same reasons, but that would've made for a very different (and not very Star-Wars-y) film.

? Being suspicious at first is VERY star-wars-y. I mean, Han Solo for one as a major source of distrust.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Obi-Wan was Luke's only connection to his father and was the only offering Luke had of a new life he craved. With the death of Kenobi Luke saw not only the death of a connection to his past but also the withering promise of a future of adventure and even power. He has no idea if he's going to survive the fight at hand and even if he does what will happen. I don't think he even knows about Yoda yet.

They also had a few minor adventures together and there was a sense of time having passed, but everything else should warrant that kind of response.

Sure, that's a fair defense of Luke's reaction. I'm buying it. All I'm saying is a cynical view would be "It's an old man he knew for a day and some change".

Someone kicking your ass next to a bot that is shocking you comes across as being treated as a mysterious and exciting resistance fighter?

After the shocking and face hitting ceases, she pulls him up, he poses as a resistance fighter, and she looks charmed off her toes (also probably the moment in the film she MOST resembles Keira Knightley). Do keep in mind this is also potentially literally the first time Finn has ever seen a woman out of uniform.

Being suspicious at first is VERY star-wars-y. I mean, Han Solo for one as a major source of distrust.

I think you're misunderstanding me. Rey spent 10-12 years living a hardscrabble life under an unkind caretaker on a miserable barren planet. Finn has been kept in a repressive, regimented, despotic regime his entire life. Both characters could easily have been written with extensive psychological scarring. It just wouldn't have been very "fun".

 

[Lightknight]

Someone kicking your ass next to a bot that is shocking you comes across as being treated as a mysterious and exciting resistance fighter?

After the shocking and face hitting ceases, she pulls him up, he poses as a resistance fighter, and she looks charmed off her toes (also probably the moment in the film she MOST resembles Keira Knightley). Do keep in mind this is also potentially literally the first time Finn has ever seen a woman out of uniform.

Sure, that's interesting. We could view Finn as a high-schooler equivalent where it comes to girls and Rey just hasn't ever seen a really nice person before (which Finn is). It's still just ultra-quick which you seem to agree with even with this caveat.

Being suspicious at first is VERY star-wars-y. I mean, Han Solo for one as a major source of distrust.

I think you're misunderstanding me. Rey spent 10-12 years living a hardscrabble life under an unkind caretaker on a miserable barren planet. Finn has been kept in a repressive, regimented, despotic regime his entire life. Both characters could easily have been written with extensive psychological scarring. It just wouldn't have been very "fun".

Oh yeah, if they were both hard asses that would have killed it. I mean, viewers find hard asses cool but not relatable.

But it's hard to think of someone who had to be hardened or be punished and a person who had to be distrusting or be taken advantage of and accept that both of them are just waiting to meet one person who isn't a dick.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Sure, that's interesting. We could view Finn as a high-schooler equivalent where it comes to girls and Rey just hasn't ever seen a really nice person before (which Finn is). It's still just ultra-quick which you seem to agree with even with this caveat.

My understanding is that they wanted to keep the film roughly equivalent in length to other entries in the series (over-long running time is kind of death to action-adventure serials). For a film that had so much to do (service the OT cast, set up the NT cast, re-ground and thematically bridge the film to the original trilogy, set up and establish the passage of time between the OT and NT, etc, etc) it really resulted in a brutal time crunch. I don't always think they used their time as effectively as they could have, but much like...say...the first season of Game of Thrones, I think they did the best that could reasonably be expected with a very difficult project.

But it's hard to think of someone who had to be hardened or be punished and a person who had to be distrusting or be taken advantage of and accept that both of them are just waiting to meet one person who isn't a dick.

Well, I think they also wanted to play to the natural charisma of the two characters as well. Boyega has done great comedic work in the past, and Ridley has an effusive/child-like charm. Much like Hamill's 1977 voice was incurably whiny, I think the writers let the actors inform the characters to a certain degree.

 

[TheRightToArmBears]

Except Finn would be hacked to pieces by Kylo Ren?

After he gets slashed like he did in the movie you could always have THAT be the point where the planet collapsing separate them. The fight would be a little anti-climactic and one sided, sure, but then again that's exactly how it should be for the first encounter.

I do sort of get your point, but on the other hand, you can rewrite a couple of scenes in almost any film to make a character superfluous. Rey isn't particularly useless by Hollywood standards, and this is a trilogy; she's being set up for greater things.

 

[Zontar]

I do sort of get your point, but on the other hand, you can rewrite a couple of scenes in almost any film to make a character superfluous. Rey isn't particularly useless by Hollywood standards, and this is a trilogy; she's being set up for greater things.

Making a character superfluous usually isn't that hard, but when it's one of two protagonists that's usually a bad thing. The whole point of having two protagonists is that each one has an arc that is too intrinsic to the story to be removed.

 

[Lightknight]

Sure, that's interesting. We could view Finn as a high-schooler equivalent where it comes to girls and Rey just hasn't ever seen a really nice person before (which Finn is). It's still just ultra-quick which you seem to agree with even with this caveat.

My understanding is that they wanted to keep the film roughly equivalent in length to other entries in the series (over-long running time is kind of death to action-adventure serials). For a film that had so much to do (service the OT cast, set up the NT cast, re-ground and thematically bridge the film to the original trilogy, set up and establish the passage of time between the OT and NT, etc, etc) it really resulted in a brutal time crunch. I don't always think they used their time as effectively as they could have, but much like...say...the first season of Game of Thrones, I think they did the best that could reasonably be expected with a very difficult project.

This was the director's failure. Either more time should have been given or other stuff should have been cut and/or reworked. The time crunch shouldn't be blatant the entire film. I am more forgiving if it is crunched in a couple segments but this looked like end-to-end crunching. A director is supposed to work within the constraints they are given or give themselves. Anything else is just an excuse and this is AAA territory where excuses are failures.

I do wonder if they may have implemented Lucas-esque deleted scenes for future monetization in their process here. Maybe there will be a two-hour longer special edition that will become the gold standard of the form of this movie. That would be horrible if it happens (you know, because they were willing to damage their theatrical release for the home release) but I'd be personally pleased if there did exist a version of the film that wasn't like this.

But it's hard to think of someone who had to be hardened or be punished and a person who had to be distrusting or be taken advantage of and accept that both of them are just waiting to meet one person who isn't a dick.

Well, I think they also wanted to play to the natural charisma of the two characters as well. Boyega has done great comedic work in the past, and Ridley has an effusive/child-like charm. Much like Hamill's 1977 voice was incurably whiny, I think the writers let the actors inform the characters to a certain degree.

You can have natural chemistry after initial suspicion. The mental hoop I have to jump through is that maybe Rey had a natural ability to judge character thanks to her force sensitivity. That I have to fall back on fan-boy explanations to maintain suspension of disbelief is disappointing. I would loved to have seen them had actual human interaction that showed their chemistry rather than being all "let's run around". I mean, even after he said who he was she still screamed at him multiple times to stop grabbing her hand. That's not natural chemistry, that's being on different pages.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Maybe there will be a two-hour longer special edition that will become the gold standard of the form of this movie.

I think if you set about anticipating a 4.5 hour TFA special edition you're going to be sorely disappointed. If there are deleted scenes, they'll likely add up to less than 10 minutes of running time, and it will almost certainly be immediately apparent that most were deleted for a cogent reason.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

By that logic, Game of Thrones would be about 1 book long. It's called the entertainment industry, and not the brutal efficiency industry for a good reason.

I applaud the sentiment of this post. I question whether or not George R.R. Martin is a good example of an individual who couldn't benefit from judicious pruning of his narrative.