Those stories may have been better, but you have to judge the movie based on what it is, not what you think it should have been.Glongpre said:
Star Wars Force Awakens Spoiler Filled discussion thread (no spoiler tags, you've been warned)
- Thread starter Zontar
- Start date
Recommended Videos
As someone who was a fan of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and saw the series go from "A Chosen One" to "A room full of Chosen Ones" in season seven, please believe me when I say A) You don't want this, and B) It would not have improved the film.Glongpre said:
In order to effect proper characterization, you need to spend time with the same individuals. Lots of time. TFA was overflowing with characters that needed attention and screen time as it was. If anything it needs LESS scale and MORE emphasis on small, personal moments.
I... Really enjoyed it.
I avoided spoilers, and the movie was full of "freakin' sweet" moments for me.
Kylo Ren is not vader, and I think comparing them is a mistake. He's not a faceless semi-automaton who simply does his masters bidding. He's genuinely conflicted, tempted by the light side (which makes a nice change to everyone being a light side-r being tempted by the dark side and the dark side-rs all being evul and irredeemable unless in extreme circumstances) and clearly a rookie.
It had blaster battles, space battles, lightsabre battles, the force being used in a variety of ways, a dramatic death, humour, some character building and changed things about the force/empire/general world
Maybe I'm just a popcorn munching member of the public who doesn;t really have a massive attachment to star wars or any real knowledge of cinematography, but I wasn't the mona lisa of cinema. It delivered what I wanted, and then some.
EDIT: Also guys, most of your "plot holes" (how did the sabre end up there for example) will probably be explained in the next 4 hours of the trilogy, we've got quite a bit of time left
I avoided spoilers, and the movie was full of "freakin' sweet" moments for me.
Kylo Ren is not vader, and I think comparing them is a mistake. He's not a faceless semi-automaton who simply does his masters bidding. He's genuinely conflicted, tempted by the light side (which makes a nice change to everyone being a light side-r being tempted by the dark side and the dark side-rs all being evul and irredeemable unless in extreme circumstances) and clearly a rookie.
It had blaster battles, space battles, lightsabre battles, the force being used in a variety of ways, a dramatic death, humour, some character building and changed things about the force/empire/general world
Maybe I'm just a popcorn munching member of the public who doesn;t really have a massive attachment to star wars or any real knowledge of cinematography, but I wasn't the mona lisa of cinema. It delivered what I wanted, and then some.
EDIT: Also guys, most of your "plot holes" (how did the sabre end up there for example) will probably be explained in the next 4 hours of the trilogy, we've got quite a bit of time left
The recruits would just be filler, they don't really need characterization, they are just the fodder.BloatedGuppy said:
EDIT:
It wouldn't be chosen one to a room full of chosen ones, as you say. There would still be the clear main characters, the other awakened humanoids would just be background. You can't tell me you never wanted to see a big jedi vs sith battle
And the shit I made up does have less scale! It went from huge space drama with a planet sized death star, to a few people on either side searching for recruits, eventually building to a big battle.
I'm sure this has been mentioned at least once before and no one will actually pay attention to this post about 9-forum pages in. But I want to throw my two cents in the few things I saw mentioned on the first page I bothered to read through. (Sorry guys, but I'm not gonna actually read all 9 pages of comments when so many come off as very similar).
1 - People seemed a little peeved at Rey suddenly getting the force powers and lightsaber combat down without much effort. But if you guys pay attention to the weird visions she has when she first handles the Skywalker Saber (innuendo?) you see her as a girl, R2 and most likely Luke kneeling, and Kylo with dead bodies. And if we paid attention, they mentioned one of Luke's Students went rogue. This will likely be detailed more heavily in Episode 8, but I'm willing to bet both Ben Solo and Rey were students of Luke among a few others. Ben, believing his lineage would prove to make him the best, fell behind other students, most notably Rey who seems to excel with her gifts. As a result, Ben leaves in search of more power, convinced the dark side his grandfather embraced was truly the strongest. Wanting to prove just how much stronger he was, he repeated Anakin's child-murder-rampage but failed to get Rey. Presumably because Luke was smart enough to send her away before it was too late... or Luke defended her and then sent her away. Why she doesn't remember is likely because of either traumatic events being repressed or because Luke wiped it from her mind at her young age in hopes she would be safer hiding from Kylo Ren in secret. This only leaves the question of why they chose to put her on Jakku and why Luke didn't just finish off Kylo Ren himself when he might have had a chance. Meaning, yes, there are some holes in this theory, but I think it's probably the most promising. But to my main point, it's not that she just did it without effort. It's that all the mind-jarring from Kylo helped unlock that hidden away potential from long ago. But how and why have yet to be explained.
2 - Yes, Kylo Ren is a whiny brat, or at least feels like one. But I can't get enough of that Emo Kylo Ren twitter account. Damn that shit is funny. Ahem. As for the character in the film, I think that the fear of not being able to live up to Vader is true on many different levels. It would make sense that when we see him again he will be much stronger because of the training he will undergo. And I do like his whole "seduced by the light" fear that mirrors what the Jedi have gone through for the dark side. I think we'll come to understand more about Kylo Ren in the next film and what truly pushes him forward. Why does he idolize Vader so much? How does Snoke have such a hold on this boy? And why the fuck does he keep taking his mask off like he's the goddamned Amazing Spiderman? Seriously, you had me with this guy until he took the mask off. Then he was just some dude. Fuck, he looked like some dude I could beat up. And I can't beat up most things. All that intimidation lost. I get why he removes the mask for Han, but that should have been it, really.
3 - I predicted either Han or Chewie would die. And while Han died, I'm actually sadder for Chewie having lost his best friend in the world. I should feel something for Leia since she lost someone she loved, but the relationship Han had with Chewie always felt stronger to me. I wouldn't say like a man and his dog, but something akin to that. Gotta give Chewie props for carrying on and fucking up anyone in his way once Han went down. As for Han, that scene was really well made, even if it was predictable. The lighting was great, acting was spot on, and the build up for it was just about right. I would have liked less mentions of the Han-Kylo family relationship because I feel we were beaten over the head with that one. But it worked out the way I more or less expected.
4 - Finn and Poe were great. I can't say more than that really. Finn was expected to be the hero but was flipped around last minute for a surprisingly good reveal. I enjoyed almost every scene he was in. I especially loved the scene where he's getting chased and tased by Rey and BB-8. I turned to my buddy in the theater and jokingly asked if that was supposed to be a commentary on police brutality. In all seriousness, even though he was doing the Aladdin-method of trying to get in good with the ladies (ie lying your ass off) he was a likeable average guy thrown into a situation well beyond his abilities and managed to scramble through them all reasonably well. I would love to have seen more Poe and I think we'll get that in the next movie (or at least I hope). What little we did see was great.
5 - Yes, the movie does rehash lots of character and narrative beats from Episode IV as well as V and maybe a hint of VI. It really feels like they took the important moments of the original trilogy and crammed them together and then found a good way to connect them. I don't think this does the movie a disservice. It strongly shows the apologetic attitude the studio has towards the prequels and their desire to go back to how things started. But the prequels started off with a similar beat as well if you really think about it. This is nothing new and it's safe to say episode VII did it better than Episode I in many ways. Desert planet, hopeless dreamer on shitty planet, escaping empire on the falcon in dangerous places, droid with secret plans/information to protect, trench run on a death-weapon, a giant death-weapon, confession on a catwalk from a family member, the old guard dying so the next generation can fight on, etc. The whole original trilogy is in this film and that's a double-edged sword. I think we'll see if this strategy paid off in the next film if they start focusing on all new methods and story ideas. If not, then consider this a failed experiment. But I'm confident Disney didn't pay that large money for this IP to waste time repeating the series at infinitude. They're greedy, but they're not stupid.
I could go on... but I want to get to bed. Later!
1 - People seemed a little peeved at Rey suddenly getting the force powers and lightsaber combat down without much effort. But if you guys pay attention to the weird visions she has when she first handles the Skywalker Saber (innuendo?) you see her as a girl, R2 and most likely Luke kneeling, and Kylo with dead bodies. And if we paid attention, they mentioned one of Luke's Students went rogue. This will likely be detailed more heavily in Episode 8, but I'm willing to bet both Ben Solo and Rey were students of Luke among a few others. Ben, believing his lineage would prove to make him the best, fell behind other students, most notably Rey who seems to excel with her gifts. As a result, Ben leaves in search of more power, convinced the dark side his grandfather embraced was truly the strongest. Wanting to prove just how much stronger he was, he repeated Anakin's child-murder-rampage but failed to get Rey. Presumably because Luke was smart enough to send her away before it was too late... or Luke defended her and then sent her away. Why she doesn't remember is likely because of either traumatic events being repressed or because Luke wiped it from her mind at her young age in hopes she would be safer hiding from Kylo Ren in secret. This only leaves the question of why they chose to put her on Jakku and why Luke didn't just finish off Kylo Ren himself when he might have had a chance. Meaning, yes, there are some holes in this theory, but I think it's probably the most promising. But to my main point, it's not that she just did it without effort. It's that all the mind-jarring from Kylo helped unlock that hidden away potential from long ago. But how and why have yet to be explained.
2 - Yes, Kylo Ren is a whiny brat, or at least feels like one. But I can't get enough of that Emo Kylo Ren twitter account. Damn that shit is funny. Ahem. As for the character in the film, I think that the fear of not being able to live up to Vader is true on many different levels. It would make sense that when we see him again he will be much stronger because of the training he will undergo. And I do like his whole "seduced by the light" fear that mirrors what the Jedi have gone through for the dark side. I think we'll come to understand more about Kylo Ren in the next film and what truly pushes him forward. Why does he idolize Vader so much? How does Snoke have such a hold on this boy? And why the fuck does he keep taking his mask off like he's the goddamned Amazing Spiderman? Seriously, you had me with this guy until he took the mask off. Then he was just some dude. Fuck, he looked like some dude I could beat up. And I can't beat up most things. All that intimidation lost. I get why he removes the mask for Han, but that should have been it, really.
3 - I predicted either Han or Chewie would die. And while Han died, I'm actually sadder for Chewie having lost his best friend in the world. I should feel something for Leia since she lost someone she loved, but the relationship Han had with Chewie always felt stronger to me. I wouldn't say like a man and his dog, but something akin to that. Gotta give Chewie props for carrying on and fucking up anyone in his way once Han went down. As for Han, that scene was really well made, even if it was predictable. The lighting was great, acting was spot on, and the build up for it was just about right. I would have liked less mentions of the Han-Kylo family relationship because I feel we were beaten over the head with that one. But it worked out the way I more or less expected.
4 - Finn and Poe were great. I can't say more than that really. Finn was expected to be the hero but was flipped around last minute for a surprisingly good reveal. I enjoyed almost every scene he was in. I especially loved the scene where he's getting chased and tased by Rey and BB-8. I turned to my buddy in the theater and jokingly asked if that was supposed to be a commentary on police brutality. In all seriousness, even though he was doing the Aladdin-method of trying to get in good with the ladies (ie lying your ass off) he was a likeable average guy thrown into a situation well beyond his abilities and managed to scramble through them all reasonably well. I would love to have seen more Poe and I think we'll get that in the next movie (or at least I hope). What little we did see was great.
5 - Yes, the movie does rehash lots of character and narrative beats from Episode IV as well as V and maybe a hint of VI. It really feels like they took the important moments of the original trilogy and crammed them together and then found a good way to connect them. I don't think this does the movie a disservice. It strongly shows the apologetic attitude the studio has towards the prequels and their desire to go back to how things started. But the prequels started off with a similar beat as well if you really think about it. This is nothing new and it's safe to say episode VII did it better than Episode I in many ways. Desert planet, hopeless dreamer on shitty planet, escaping empire on the falcon in dangerous places, droid with secret plans/information to protect, trench run on a death-weapon, a giant death-weapon, confession on a catwalk from a family member, the old guard dying so the next generation can fight on, etc. The whole original trilogy is in this film and that's a double-edged sword. I think we'll see if this strategy paid off in the next film if they start focusing on all new methods and story ideas. If not, then consider this a failed experiment. But I'm confident Disney didn't pay that large money for this IP to waste time repeating the series at infinitude. They're greedy, but they're not stupid.
I could go on... but I want to get to bed. Later!
Also, to add to my above point, I think Kylo Ren is actually indicative of the New Order as a whole.
The New Order wants to be the empire so bad, but it doesn't seem to have the iron grip over the galaxy the empire had, with the republic wielding a large amount of political power. They don't even have as much control over their troopers, with Finn as the obvious example but also the shock-mace wielder showing frustration and acting irrationally upon seeing Finn. A world apart from the old troopers that didn't appear to let things like emotion get in the way.
This can be directly paralleled to the Ren/Vader comparison in that Ren wants to be as powerful as his grandfather, but his own internal struggles hold him back.
Ren lashes out in frustration when given bad news. The New Order blows up 5 planets out of spite with no real tactical gain. They didn't even 100% know that the republic were harbouring rebels, and it seems to have just been petty revenge.
The fact is that they're both relatively fresh to this world, so eager to make a mark and prove that they're the evilest bastards ever and make stupid choices in doing so.
The New Order wants to be the empire so bad, but it doesn't seem to have the iron grip over the galaxy the empire had, with the republic wielding a large amount of political power. They don't even have as much control over their troopers, with Finn as the obvious example but also the shock-mace wielder showing frustration and acting irrationally upon seeing Finn. A world apart from the old troopers that didn't appear to let things like emotion get in the way.
This can be directly paralleled to the Ren/Vader comparison in that Ren wants to be as powerful as his grandfather, but his own internal struggles hold him back.
Ren lashes out in frustration when given bad news. The New Order blows up 5 planets out of spite with no real tactical gain. They didn't even 100% know that the republic were harbouring rebels, and it seems to have just been petty revenge.
The fact is that they're both relatively fresh to this world, so eager to make a mark and prove that they're the evilest bastards ever and make stupid choices in doing so.
I like that you brought up Kyle Katarn. Katarn is another Force User that is a lot like Rey, he goes from picking up a lightsaber to fighting Dark Jedi within the space of a few hours, and somehow he masters various Force techniques and becomes a full on Jedi Master that kills a half dozen Dark Jedi that have trained for years within what, a few days? Then Kyle's own apprentice does the exact same thing plus more. Rey is definitely not the first Force User in the franchise nor I suspect will be the last to go from complete novice to capable from the word go. The Force has always been anything but consistent in Star Wars and the people who use it are no better that's for sure, the Force can do whatever the writers want it to.jamail77 said:
I've looked around for everything I could about Finn to see if there was anything definitively stating or showing one way or another whether Finn is Force Sensitive or not, but no dice. Aside from wielding a lightsaber in an obviously amateur fashion twice there is no indication that he even could be Force Sensitive, but there's nothing that goes against it either. I get the distinct feeling that the writers haven't really decided whether Finn is going to be a Jedi like Luke and the rest or just an ordinary but skilled and lucky Han Solo type yet, so they're intentionally keeping things vague so they can go either way they want to.Happyninja42 said:
I think there is something important about Finn. Why is he the only storm trooper to break his conditioning and do the right thing? I think Ren sensed this and was not just sensing his defiance. Why of all the places on the entire planet he could have crash landed, he landed within walking distance of the very droid they were looking for? It is one of two things: bad writing or the force. Since I am a fan and I can suspend my disbelief and have fun, I choose the force. He certainly is not Rey powerful, who I feel is the person with the most potential of all Jedis, but there is something there.
Well there's also the fact that Poe was piloting and he knew which way BB8 was going and how long he had to run, so he'd likely have piloted his ship in the direction of the nearest settlement he'd likely have gone towards. Which, given how it took him about a day of walking to reach it, makes sense if Poe was in fact trying to land at the outpost.BaronVH said:
Just got back from my second viewing of the movie. Thought of a few more things.
-The detail given for some things is insane. Kylo Ren's lightsaber is a fantastic example. Since he uses a crudely put together lightsaber, built from an ancient design, his blade is not as contained as others. The detail they put into that is awesome.
-Kylo Ren has the same brute force power as Darth Vader, which is shown by how insane his power with it is. Even though he seems to be rather untrained in its usage.
-The detail given for some things is insane. Kylo Ren's lightsaber is a fantastic example. Since he uses a crudely put together lightsaber, built from an ancient design, his blade is not as contained as others. The detail they put into that is awesome.
-Kylo Ren has the same brute force power as Darth Vader, which is shown by how insane his power with it is. Even though he seems to be rather untrained in its usage.
I don't know, he can hold people in place or force chock someone by making THEM move into his hand as he does so, I think that shows a bit of mastery of the more brute force side of the force. Now of course that leads to the problem that the fight between him and Rey is even more unbelievable then it already was that she somehow managed to not only hold her own but in defiance of logic win, but that's neither here nor there.Elfgore said:
I agree with the second and third paragraphs here. One of my biggest problems with this film is its refusal to show proper scope. IV (the movie it's trying oh so hard to imitate) does a better job at making the galaxy feel so much larger than what we see in VII. Alderaan is just a planet. It's horrible, to be sure, but it also characterizes how the Empire sees planets: resources that can be destroyed to keep order. You understand so much about the Empire and the Reblelion both in size and scope in that one scene. VII on the other hand has the First Order destroy the capital star system of the Republic. Oh? You thought that The FIrst Order destroyed the entire Republic? Well, so did I until I read online. This movie does such a bad job at giving scope. It really feels like the Republic is one system large and the First Order controls maybe two systems at max.Elfgore said:
Though if you want to know the factions...
First Order: Formed from the remnants of the old Empire, secretly led by Snooke. Tries to be the Empire oh so badly.
Republic: The government founded after the Rebellion succeeds. Does not want to go to official war with the First Order because reasons.
Resistance: The way the Republic wars against the First Order without officially warring against the First Order. The Resistance is a "rouge" (since they're being funded by the Republic) splinter of the Republic that wages war against The FIrst Order. They have no fleet but since the Republic "looses" its fleet to the Resistance, they're essentially a strike force of the Republic against the First Order.
Also Kylo Ren is a pathetic villain.
OT: I surprisingly didn't hate this movie, but I didn't love it either. I think from the beginning until they leave Jakku is great. Unfortunately the movie falls apart for me after that. I don't care for the villains, the plot is a retread, all "twists" are easily called and worst of all, I predicted exactly what happens in the final lightsaber battle. I shouldn't have done that. It shouldn't have been that easy to predict.
Here's what I'd give it...
Spectacle: 9/10
Entertainment: 9/10
Action: 8/10
Story: 7/10
Characters: 8/10
It was certainly much better than the Prequels, I'll give it that. But chalk me up as one of the ones who has a bit of an issue with just how much the story is a retelling of A New Hope. I wouldn't mind for there to be some references to the previous movies - one would almost even expect it - but for it to be a damn-near point-by-point retelling of the first movie? I thought that was a bit much.
Also, what's the deal with the SW universe and insisting that every planet is made up entirely by one environment? Desert planet. Ice planet. Jungle planet. Water planet. City planet. Apparently diversity isn't something that exists in a galaxy far, far away. I understand that not every world is going to be as diverse as Earth, but one would think that if a planet is in the habitable life-zone of it's star, chances are it's not going to be entirely composed of a single environment.
I thought the characters were decent enough, though Finn's humor seemed a bit forced at times. And speaking of "forced"...
What's the deal with Rey going from a complete rookie who didn't even know she has Force powers to suddenly being a full-blown Jedi Knight in the matter of 10 minutes with absolutely 0 training or experience? I can accept that she has latent Force abilities which gives her a natural resistance to Ren's mind-probing Force technique. But she didn't even know - or believe - that she had Force powers...2 minutes later she's successfully executing the Jedi Mind Trick (how did she even know that was a thing?) and apparently her completely untrained Force Pull is strong enough to yank Luke's lightsaber away from Ren's Force Pull. Ren...who has been shown stopping a blaster shot and holding it in mid-air for quite some time. I can accept that she gives herself over to the Force and lets it guide her actions - that's what Luke does to blow up the Death Star - and win the duel against Ren. But the rest of the stuff...she goes from being a helpless captive to "Ok, well I guess I'm officially a space wizard now" with no training, practice, guidance, or experience. I found that to be a bit much.
Spectacle: 9/10
Entertainment: 9/10
Action: 8/10
Story: 7/10
Characters: 8/10
It was certainly much better than the Prequels, I'll give it that. But chalk me up as one of the ones who has a bit of an issue with just how much the story is a retelling of A New Hope. I wouldn't mind for there to be some references to the previous movies - one would almost even expect it - but for it to be a damn-near point-by-point retelling of the first movie? I thought that was a bit much.
Also, what's the deal with the SW universe and insisting that every planet is made up entirely by one environment? Desert planet. Ice planet. Jungle planet. Water planet. City planet. Apparently diversity isn't something that exists in a galaxy far, far away. I understand that not every world is going to be as diverse as Earth, but one would think that if a planet is in the habitable life-zone of it's star, chances are it's not going to be entirely composed of a single environment.
I thought the characters were decent enough, though Finn's humor seemed a bit forced at times. And speaking of "forced"...
What's the deal with Rey going from a complete rookie who didn't even know she has Force powers to suddenly being a full-blown Jedi Knight in the matter of 10 minutes with absolutely 0 training or experience? I can accept that she has latent Force abilities which gives her a natural resistance to Ren's mind-probing Force technique. But she didn't even know - or believe - that she had Force powers...2 minutes later she's successfully executing the Jedi Mind Trick (how did she even know that was a thing?) and apparently her completely untrained Force Pull is strong enough to yank Luke's lightsaber away from Ren's Force Pull. Ren...who has been shown stopping a blaster shot and holding it in mid-air for quite some time. I can accept that she gives herself over to the Force and lets it guide her actions - that's what Luke does to blow up the Death Star - and win the duel against Ren. But the rest of the stuff...she goes from being a helpless captive to "Ok, well I guess I'm officially a space wizard now" with no training, practice, guidance, or experience. I found that to be a bit much.
After I've seen it I'm kina torn.
It is not as bad as any of the prequels so that's a plus.
And that's kinda it...
Flinn is just thrown in there.
A apparently since early childhood brainwashed trooper that on its first sortie immediately goes against his brainwashing despite until then apparently never ever standing out because... plot says so.
Let me just say that the clone troopers were always a lazy plot device. An army of genetically obedient people led by few evil men to rule the galaxy... why? Because the writer didn't come up with a compelling reason for normal human beings joining the empire - That's why.
Children being abducted and brainwashed is just as lazy. Seems to me it was only made this way to avoid casting Temuero Morrison and generating CGI clones again.
I think even Star Wars can cope with a bit of grey.
If he was a normal guy forced to participate in the slaughter of a village I may get why he would want to defect... but brainwashed since early childhood without any previous irregularities? - Does not compute.
Going against your brainwashing as cold soldier includes getting a sense of humor apparently.
Not to mention the janitor gets to know all the facilities details. He needs to know every corner and how it works since he has to clean it...
Rey comes off as shallow and some sort of Mary Sue.
I get it: She can use the force.
But judging from the flashback she was left on Jakku when she was around 6 or something. No training whatsoever since then, yet she beats a supposedly way better and longer trained Sith...
It reflects badly on Kylo Ren and doesn't help making Rey compelling either.
And where are her flaws or shortcomings? There was nothing she couldn't do or handle.
I get it, it made 0 sense that Luke went from whatever the fuck he was flying on Tatooine shooting Womprats to an X-Wing. At least back then they had the decency to not shove it into your face that the character supposedly has no fucking clue, build it up at least a little bit (bar scene "I'm a good pilot" and base scene "Womprat shooting") nor did they show him doing the craziest maneuvers on a whim... Rey does all that. She outright tells Flinn that she had no idea what she was doing and still outperformed trained pilots of the first order in a stellar fashion.
Luke was unexperienced with rough environments coming from a sheltered home as seen in the bar scene.
Rey never displays some sort of trust issues which a character that grew up in a harsh and selfish environment might have.
Kylo Ren where to start...
He gets his ass handed to him by a brainwashed trooper (laser blast to the stomach and one cut with the sword), a force sensitive women with far less training (resisting his mind trick, defeats him in duel) and unleashes his frustration on the equipment twice...
In short he is a wuss.
His masked design is good but too bad he takes off his helmet/mask during every important scene diminishing his presence with his baby face.
Furthermore at the current state of the story his motives are shrouded.He is doing all this because... whatever watch the next movie.
Seems like he might get some Sith corruption and a scar on his face in the next movie... so at least less baby face. But honestly it didn't help making Hayden Christensen intimidating in Revenge of the Sith either...
Poe is some sort of fan written Wedge?
Best pilot okay but that good? - Common he could fight the entire fleet alone... and that's the issue.
His flight skills are just too exaggerated.
We get rather underperforming light saber battles and completely over the top star fighter action.
Captain Phasma... was there and did nothing.
Except proving that even the elite can't do shit. Makes you wonder how the first order gets anything done when faced with god like pilots like Poe...
Missed opportunity to get the grey in as Phasma could have served as some sort of idol to Flinn giving him a natural reason why someone would want to join the forces.
Later he could have been disgusted by the action on the planet and disappointed by his idol of valor and strength.
But yea... let's go with brainwashing kids, so much better...
As for the original cast: I guess it was too much Han and the reintroduction of Han and Chewbacca by capturing the Falcon with a freighter and their shady double dealing felt kind of forced and gimmicky.
Leia as general and Luke as Jedi master felt way more organic and plot related.
Other than that it rehashed a lot of plot points of the original movies and blew them up in proportion:
Not one planet died but 6 (?).
The base is an entire planet now and no artificial moon.
Android with plans has to be brought back to the Rebels.
Family member turned to the dark side.
Kid with no family of first degree gets to be Jedi later on.
Like I said its okayish... the biggest selling point currently is that it is better than the prequels.
It is not as bad as any of the prequels so that's a plus.
And that's kinda it...
Flinn is just thrown in there.
A apparently since early childhood brainwashed trooper that on its first sortie immediately goes against his brainwashing despite until then apparently never ever standing out because... plot says so.
Let me just say that the clone troopers were always a lazy plot device. An army of genetically obedient people led by few evil men to rule the galaxy... why? Because the writer didn't come up with a compelling reason for normal human beings joining the empire - That's why.
Children being abducted and brainwashed is just as lazy. Seems to me it was only made this way to avoid casting Temuero Morrison and generating CGI clones again.
I think even Star Wars can cope with a bit of grey.
If he was a normal guy forced to participate in the slaughter of a village I may get why he would want to defect... but brainwashed since early childhood without any previous irregularities? - Does not compute.
Going against your brainwashing as cold soldier includes getting a sense of humor apparently.
Not to mention the janitor gets to know all the facilities details. He needs to know every corner and how it works since he has to clean it...
Rey comes off as shallow and some sort of Mary Sue.
I get it: She can use the force.
But judging from the flashback she was left on Jakku when she was around 6 or something. No training whatsoever since then, yet she beats a supposedly way better and longer trained Sith...
It reflects badly on Kylo Ren and doesn't help making Rey compelling either.
And where are her flaws or shortcomings? There was nothing she couldn't do or handle.
I get it, it made 0 sense that Luke went from whatever the fuck he was flying on Tatooine shooting Womprats to an X-Wing. At least back then they had the decency to not shove it into your face that the character supposedly has no fucking clue, build it up at least a little bit (bar scene "I'm a good pilot" and base scene "Womprat shooting") nor did they show him doing the craziest maneuvers on a whim... Rey does all that. She outright tells Flinn that she had no idea what she was doing and still outperformed trained pilots of the first order in a stellar fashion.
Luke was unexperienced with rough environments coming from a sheltered home as seen in the bar scene.
Rey never displays some sort of trust issues which a character that grew up in a harsh and selfish environment might have.
Kylo Ren where to start...
He gets his ass handed to him by a brainwashed trooper (laser blast to the stomach and one cut with the sword), a force sensitive women with far less training (resisting his mind trick, defeats him in duel) and unleashes his frustration on the equipment twice...
In short he is a wuss.
His masked design is good but too bad he takes off his helmet/mask during every important scene diminishing his presence with his baby face.
Furthermore at the current state of the story his motives are shrouded.He is doing all this because... whatever watch the next movie.
Seems like he might get some Sith corruption and a scar on his face in the next movie... so at least less baby face. But honestly it didn't help making Hayden Christensen intimidating in Revenge of the Sith either...
Poe is some sort of fan written Wedge?
Best pilot okay but that good? - Common he could fight the entire fleet alone... and that's the issue.
His flight skills are just too exaggerated.
We get rather underperforming light saber battles and completely over the top star fighter action.
Captain Phasma... was there and did nothing.
Except proving that even the elite can't do shit. Makes you wonder how the first order gets anything done when faced with god like pilots like Poe...
Missed opportunity to get the grey in as Phasma could have served as some sort of idol to Flinn giving him a natural reason why someone would want to join the forces.
Later he could have been disgusted by the action on the planet and disappointed by his idol of valor and strength.
But yea... let's go with brainwashing kids, so much better...
As for the original cast: I guess it was too much Han and the reintroduction of Han and Chewbacca by capturing the Falcon with a freighter and their shady double dealing felt kind of forced and gimmicky.
Leia as general and Luke as Jedi master felt way more organic and plot related.
Other than that it rehashed a lot of plot points of the original movies and blew them up in proportion:
Not one planet died but 6 (?).
The base is an entire planet now and no artificial moon.
Android with plans has to be brought back to the Rebels.
Family member turned to the dark side.
Kid with no family of first degree gets to be Jedi later on.
Like I said its okayish... the biggest selling point currently is that it is better than the prequels.
I loved a lot of different parts of the movie and it gives me hope for sure, but overall it's kind of disappointing.
My biggest problem is that it's just a remake of the first movie. It plays it way to safe in that regard and feels lazy. I understand the "give the fans what they want" mentality but this was a little much.
I understand maybe having the same situations so we can see how the new characters react differently - like Rey proactively escaping or wanting to go back to the planet instead of leaving, Finn questioning the atrocities of the "Empire," and a bad guy trying to resist the light instead of the other way around. The plot structure being so similar is way too much though - Hang around on a desert planet, bar of scum and villainy, prison break, blow up a death star.
The writing wasn't the best and also all the little nods and winks at the audience got a little distracting. Rey being a total fan girl, Kylo Ren saying "It's just us now" to Finn and Rey after Han is gone. It makes it feel like a fan film (which it basically is) instead of a true continuation.
I wanted new characters with new threats and stories. I wanted MORE Star Wars not ANOTHER Star Wars.
My biggest problem is that it's just a remake of the first movie. It plays it way to safe in that regard and feels lazy. I understand the "give the fans what they want" mentality but this was a little much.
I understand maybe having the same situations so we can see how the new characters react differently - like Rey proactively escaping or wanting to go back to the planet instead of leaving, Finn questioning the atrocities of the "Empire," and a bad guy trying to resist the light instead of the other way around. The plot structure being so similar is way too much though - Hang around on a desert planet, bar of scum and villainy, prison break, blow up a death star.
The writing wasn't the best and also all the little nods and winks at the audience got a little distracting. Rey being a total fan girl, Kylo Ren saying "It's just us now" to Finn and Rey after Han is gone. It makes it feel like a fan film (which it basically is) instead of a true continuation.
I wanted new characters with new threats and stories. I wanted MORE Star Wars not ANOTHER Star Wars.
Why don't you try building a moon sized space station with a massive laser and deal with the heat issues that arise. It's a miracle it was so small. The problem in space isn't cold but heat. There is no convection just radiations which is terrible at removing heat.Dazzle Novak said:
Well I FINALLY got around to watching it a second time (blasted inconsistent work schedule!), and I found myself enjoying it more than I did the first time. My original nitpicks [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.931612-Star-Wars-Force-Awakens-Spoiler-Filled-discussion-thread-no-spoiler-tags-youve-been-warned?page=3#comment_form] still stand, but I don't have as much of an issue with them now. Perhaps I just needed to adjust to the different style Abrams brought to the film (it's the first movie of his that I've seen).
I have a theory that Finn is a jedi as well- The whole 'Force awakening' stuff isn't just relevant to Rey, it's what caused him to break his conditioning. Given that in previous films it's explained that non-force users have a real hard time using lightsabers and he uses one fairly well considering his lack of training, it makes sense. I'd actually be a little annoyed if he's not, it would devalue lightsabers a bit if anyone could learn to use them.BaronVH said:
