Star Wars Force Awakens Spoiler Filled discussion thread (no spoiler tags, you've been warned)

BloatedGuppy

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someonehairy-ish said:
This accomplishes a few things - Rey doesn't have to learn to use the force in 5 minutes, she's already force-powered.
The Red Letter Media guys were discussing this, the speed with which Rey becomes accustomed to expressing her powers. In their mind, this is consistent with OT use of "The Force", and how with Luke it was primarily about heading off the potential Vader in him than actually "sending him to Jedi School". It wasn't until the prequels that we got this stupid notion of them needing to grab them as kids and have them stand around waving lightsabers in front of training droids. Ben barely has Luke "training" for a couple of hours, but he still uses the force repeatedly. It's an innate ability he learns to express, and tends to come to him in times of great stress/need.

someonehairy-ish said:
...and Po would get more screentime.
Poe. Po is a Teletubby.
 

Fappy

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BloatedGuppy said:
someonehairy-ish said:
This accomplishes a few things - Rey doesn't have to learn to use the force in 5 minutes, she's already force-powered.
The Red Letter Media guys were discussing this, the speed with which Rey becomes accustomed to expressing her powers. In their mind, this is consistent with OT use of "The Force", and how with Luke it was primarily about heading off the potential Vader in him than actually "sending him to Jedi School". It wasn't until the prequels that we got this stupid notion of them needing to grab them as kids and have them stand around waving lightsabers in front of training droids. Ben barely has Luke "training" for a couple of hours, but he still uses the force repeatedly. It's an innate ability he learns to express, and tends to come to him in times of great stress/need.

someonehairy-ish said:
...and Po would get more screentime.
Poe. Po is a Teletubby.
I watched their review last night and agreed with them. I think a lot of people are watching this movie within the context of the prequels and EU when it's fairly obvious Disney is trying to break away from those things. I didn't really think about how much I hated how the prequels changed jedi lore until I heard this point.
 

someonehairy-ish

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BloatedGuppy said:
someonehairy-ish said:
This accomplishes a few things - Rey doesn't have to learn to use the force in 5 minutes, she's already force-powered.
The Red Letter Media guys were discussing this, the speed with which Rey becomes accustomed to expressing her powers. In their mind, this is consistent with OT use of "The Force", and how with Luke it was primarily about heading off the potential Vader in him than actually "sending him to Jedi School". It wasn't until the prequels that we got this stupid notion of them needing to grab them as kids and have them stand around waving lightsabers in front of training droids. Ben barely has Luke "training" for a couple of hours, but he still uses the force repeatedly. It's an innate ability he learns to express, and tends to come to him in times of great stress/need.
Poe still sounds like a teletubby but whatever. As for Rey compared to Luke - no, Luke spends time with Yoda before he can even lift a rock, whereas Rey learns to use the mind trick in 3 attempts, and then squares off against a force user who can literally freeze blaster fire in the air and wins. The prequels having kids wave lightsabers around was stupid, but the way 7 handles learning to use the force was also stupid.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Fappy said:
I watched their review last night and agreed with them. I think a lot of people are watching this movie within the context of the prequels and EU when it's fairly obvious Disney is trying to break away from those things. I didn't really think about how much I hated how the prequels changed jedi lore until I heard this point.
It was a good review. Plenty of snark, but warm and loving snark, as opposed to the bitter snark aimed at the prequels.

The EU complicates issues. I don't know how to address the disappointment of someone who was invested in/loved the EU, as I was never exposed to it. My primary concern was how the films related to and worked with the other films. Star Wars is, to me, a series of films. I'm sympathetic to folks who were totally in love with EU concepts that no longer exist, canonically.
 

BloatedGuppy

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someonehairy-ish said:
Poe still sounds like a teletubby but whatever. As for Rey compared to Luke - no, Luke spends time with Yoda before he can even lift a rock...
Luke's petulance, anger and disappointment are constantly screwing him up. This is a major element in his character development. Whenever he's calm and/or desperate, he uses the force to accomplish some pretty remarkable things. Like, I dunno...blowing up the Deathstar.

someonehairy-ish said:
...whereas Rey learns to use the mind trick in 3 attempts, and then squares off against a force user who can literally freeze blaster fire in the air and wins.
Again with this. They Chekov Gunned that fucking bowcaster and how powerful it was multiple times for all the slow people in the audience. Kylo Ren got shot in the stomach with that thing. He was spraying blood all over the snow. He wasn't exactly in peak form. And he still almost killed her.
 

someonehairy-ish

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BloatedGuppy said:
someonehairy-ish said:
Poe still sounds like a teletubby but whatever. As for Rey compared to Luke - no, Luke spends time with Yoda before he can even lift a rock...
Luke's petulance, anger and disappointment are constantly screwing him up. This is a major element in his character development. Whenever he's calm and/or desperate, he uses the force to accomplish some pretty remarkable things. Like, I dunno...blowing up the Deathstar.

someonehairy-ish said:
...whereas Rey learns to use the mind trick in 3 attempts, and then squares off against a force user who can literally freeze blaster fire in the air and wins.
Again with this. They Chekov Gunned that fucking bowcaster and how powerful it was multiple times for all the slow people in the audience. Kylo Ren got shot in the stomach with that thing. He was spraying blood all over the snow. He wasn't exactly in peak form. And he still almost killed her.
Bleh... okay, point conceded.

That nitpick aside, what do you think of my post?
 

Fappy

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someonehairy-ish said:
BloatedGuppy said:
someonehairy-ish said:
This accomplishes a few things - Rey doesn't have to learn to use the force in 5 minutes, she's already force-powered.
The Red Letter Media guys were discussing this, the speed with which Rey becomes accustomed to expressing her powers. In their mind, this is consistent with OT use of "The Force", and how with Luke it was primarily about heading off the potential Vader in him than actually "sending him to Jedi School". It wasn't until the prequels that we got this stupid notion of them needing to grab them as kids and have them stand around waving lightsabers in front of training droids. Ben barely has Luke "training" for a couple of hours, but he still uses the force repeatedly. It's an innate ability he learns to express, and tends to come to him in times of great stress/need.
Poe still sounds like a teletubby but whatever. As for Rey compared to Luke - no, Luke spends time with Yoda before he can even lift a rock, whereas Rey learns to use the mind trick in 3 attempts, and then squares off against a force user who can literally freeze blaster fire in the air and wins. The prequels having kids wave lightsabers around was stupid, but the way 7 handles learning to use the force was also stupid.
Regarding the rock thing, Luke already knew how to use telekinesis. At the start of Empire he uses it to retrieve his lightsaber when he's hanging upside down in the wampa cave. Sure, it took a decent amount of effort, but he was severely injured, stressed out and disoriented. Once he was able to focus he pulled it out. The only telekinesis Rey performs in the movie is that one lightsaber pull (as far as I recall), so I think it's in-line with what was already established in the original trilogy. Luke hadn't been trained to use force pull... he just kind of figured it out.
 

BloatedGuppy

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someonehairy-ish said:
That nitpick aside, what do you think of my post?
I feel you on the "The Force Awakens A Series of Extraordinary Coincidences" issue, although I probably wouldn't have resolved them in the ways you suggest. They most definitely played it safe. Playing it safe was necessary, due to the prequels...that was always a cross this film would have to bear.

Rian Johnson is getting quite the plate of problems as his inheritance, too. His movie is the "Empire Strikes Back" of the trilogy, so he's got that shadow hanging over him, and he not longer has the benefit of simply showing up the prequels (which was an exceptionally low bar to clear). Expectations will be higher. On the plus side, he won't be saddled with needing to create a thematic bridge to a trilogy of 30 year old films, or dedicate a substantial portion of his running time to fan service. He can start digging into meatier characterization and exploration of the new trilogy's central themes.
 

Fappy

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BloatedGuppy said:
someonehairy-ish said:
That nitpick aside, what do you think of my post?
I feel you on the "The Force Awakens A Series of Extraordinary Coincidences" issue, although I probably wouldn't have resolved them in the ways you suggest. They most definitely played it safe. Playing it safe was necessary, due to the prequels...that was always a cross this film would have to bear.

Rian Johnson is getting quite the plate of problems as his inheritance, too. His movie is the "Empire Strikes Back" of the trilogy, so he's got that shadow hanging over him, and he not longer has the benefit of simply showing up the prequels (which was an exceptionally low bar to clear). Expectations will be higher. On the plus side, he won't be saddled with needing to create a thematic bridge to a trilogy of 30 year old films, or dedicate a substantial portion of his running time to fan service. He can start digging into meatier characterization and exploration of the new trilogy's central themes.
I think one of his most difficult challenges will be to subvert expectations for Luke. I really, really hope he exists as his own thing - continuing his own character arc without drawing parallels to Yoda or Vader or whomever. If Rey turns out to be his daughter, I want the conflict that introduces to affect his character's growth, not just our protagonist's.

I'm kind of thinking we might get the reveal before Rey is told he's her father. It would be cool to see him struggling with whether or not he should tell her for whatever (hopefully not contrived) reason.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Fappy said:
I think one of his most difficult challenges will be to subvert expectations for Luke. I really, really hope he exists as his own thing - continuing his own character arc without drawing parallels to Yoda or Vader or whomever. If Rey turns out to be his daughter, I want the conflict that introduces to affect his character's growth, not just our protagonist's.
Agreed. Luke as a bearded Yoda substitute would be disappointing. One soft reboot is fine (and I'd argue probably necessary), a trilogy of them would be creative bankruptcy.

If she is his daughter, there should be some anguish there about training her, knowing about what that might mean in terms of putting her in harms way. Luke cannot be terribly impressed with the consequences of getting involved force-related tug o' wars at this point. And he always prioritized the well being of his loved ones over the metaphysical concerns of "balancing the bloody force".
 

Fappy

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BloatedGuppy said:
Fappy said:
I think one of his most difficult challenges will be to subvert expectations for Luke. I really, really hope he exists as his own thing - continuing his own character arc without drawing parallels to Yoda or Vader or whomever. If Rey turns out to be his daughter, I want the conflict that introduces to affect his character's growth, not just our protagonist's.
Agreed. Luke as a bearded Yoda substitute would be disappointing. One soft reboot is fine (and I'd argue probably necessary), a trilogy of them would be creative bankruptcy.

If she is his daughter, there should be some anguish there about training her, knowing about what that might mean in terms of putting her in harms way. Luke cannot be terribly impressed with the consequences of getting involved force-related tug o' wars at this point. And he always prioritized the well being of his loved ones over the metaphysical concerns of "balancing the bloody force".
I have a feeling his training her might inspire him to reach out to Ren and that might fail miserably somewhow, ultimately leaving it up to Rey. I'd like for them to play off his arc and relationships with his own trainers from the original trilogy but not to completely subvert it. I don't know how to describe it exactly, but I am sure a competetent writer can come up with something really clever that both subverts expectations and plays off of Luke's character development from the previous films.

Despite what some people say, I think Mark Hamill still has it in him to play this role to its full extent. His age actually works perfectly fine since he's a jedi (wise old wizard trope) and he's still a competent actor. Plus, his beard actually works really well. Of all the returning actors, his appears distracted me the least.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Fappy said:
Despite what some people say, I think Mark Hamill still has it in him to play this role to its full extent. His age actually works perfectly fine since he's a jedi (wise old wizard trope) and he's still a competent actor. Plus, his beard actually works really well. Of all the returning actors, his appears distracted me the least.
You have to give Fisher props for getting her shit together enough to approximate "human being" during her brief screen time. I saw her in a few interviews leading up to it, and while I found her engaging and hilarious, she also sounded like she was three sheets to the wind. A lifetime of hard drugs and alcohol, to say nothing of the un-treated bi-polar, left her quite a mess to clean up. I was proud of her just having her shit together enough to not embarrass herself.

And 3PO kind of nailed his entrance, too. And Ford had two of the best lines in the entire movie ("Move, ball" and "That's not how the Force works!").

But yeah, Hamill post weight loss looks the most...vigorous? Ford's tired face makes contextual sense when you consider his character would be weighed down by experience and grief, but I'm not sure anyone wants or needs to see a bunch of senior citizens doing stunts and gallivanting around the galaxy, so it's a good thing Hamill looks equal to the task.
 

Fappy

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BloatedGuppy said:
Fappy said:
Despite what some people say, I think Mark Hamill still has it in him to play this role to its full extent. His age actually works perfectly fine since he's a jedi (wise old wizard trope) and he's still a competent actor. Plus, his beard actually works really well. Of all the returning actors, his appears distracted me the least.
You have to give Fisher props for getting her shit together enough to approximate "human being" during her brief screen time. I saw her in a few interviews leading up to it, and while I found her engaging and hilarious, she also sounded like she was three sheets to the wind. A lifetime of hard drugs and alcohol, to say nothing of the un-treated bi-polar, left her quite a mess to clean up. I was proud of her just having her shit together enough to not embarrass herself.

And 3PO kind of nailed his entrance, too. And Ford had two of the best lines in the entire movie ("Move, ball" and "That's not how the Force works!").

But yeah, Hamill post weight loss looks the most...vigorous? Ford's tired face makes contextual sense when you consider his character would be weighed down by experience and grief, but I'm not sure anyone wants or needs to see a bunch of senior citizens doing stunts and gallivanting around the galaxy, so it's a good thing Hamill looks equal to the task.
Yeah, Carrie Fisher is a fucking riot. It's sad to see when fans turn their backs on her :(
 

BloatedGuppy

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Fappy said:
Yeah, Carrie Fisher is a fucking riot. It's sad to see when fans turn their backs on her :(
I think they've been pretty supportive. Those who didn't follow her life post OT were surprised at her appearance/voice, but man...she really pulled it together. Wouldn't have been the same without her, either, so I'm glad.
 

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BloatedGuppy said:
His movie is the "Empire Strikes Back" of the trilogy, so he's got that shadow hanging over him...
And seems to have been set up for a Kylo-says-"Rey, I am your brother/cousin" scene. XD Please don't do this, Disney... You've had your reboot. Forge somewhere new. Or at least newish.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Pyrian said:
And seems to have been set up for a Kylo-says-"Rey, I am your brother/cousin" scene. XD Please don't do this, Disney... You've had your reboot. Forge somewhere new. Or at least newish.
Have to credit them for making his parentage such a throwaway reveal. No last minute "SURPRISE FATHER, IT IS I, YOUR SON" scene. Supreme Emperor Snopes is just all "Oh yeah, and your Dad is around. How about that."
 

COMaestro

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I enjoyed the movie. It has it's flaws, as does the OT, so my mind glossed over them pretty easily. Yes, the rapid pace that Rey exhibits proficiency in the Force bothered me a bit, as did the lack of explanation regarding the political situation in the galaxy, but otherwise I thought the movie worked quite well.

I was so happy to see the limp slapstick humor of the prequels was gone, replaced with humor that felt so much more spontaneous and genuine. All the main characters felt believable, though Rey is a bit of a Mary Sue at this point and Captain Phasma was totally underutilized for the amount the character has been hyped in marketing. They worked well together and I am excited to see more of them in the next entry.

I see a lot of both positive and negative comments regarding Kylo Ren. Personally, I thought he was done brilliantly. It is interesting to see a Force sensitive character struggling to remain with the Dark side, and honestly I feel like that is why his tantrums were so overblown. He is acting the way he believes a Dark Jedi WOULD act, rather than the way he would honestly respond. He's trying to live up to some image of Darth Vader that he has in his head, possibly due to Snoke who I really want more info on.

As for some other questions/complaints I've seen in the thread:

The lightsaber was definitely the one Luke lost on Bespin. The hilts for that one and the green one Luke builds himself are completely different and there's no way that fact would have been overlooked in the planning for this movie. How it came to the alien lady is anyone's guess, but she seemed to have some connection to the Force, so it may have led her to it for a future purpose (like giving it to Rey). Hell, Zahn used that same lightsaber in his Thrawn trilogy and I don't remember a bunch of complaints about it then.

I believe Ren constructed that lightsaber himself before he really fully understood how to do so, which is why it looks so unrefined. Which suggests to me that he was not fully trained in the use of a lightsaber by Luke, or even by Snoke. Just because we see kids being taught how to use a lightsaber in the prequels does not mean Luke taught any of his students the same way. He had very little formal training himself, so he would not know how Jedi were trained in the past except by what Obi-Wan and Yoda taught him. Lightsaber training could have been very low on his list of priorities, so Ren may have had little to no training in it.

My assumptions for the political state of the galaxy is thus: The majority of the Republic feels everything is in order and all is well. The First Order is a remnant of the Empire that is not doing much and believed to not be a threat by most and it thus largely left alone. Leia and the other leaders of the Resistance believe otherwise and have convinced some in the Republic to fund the Resistance to fight the First Order before it can become a threat to the galaxy. The First Order meanwhile has managed to construct their superweapon in secret and use it strike out at the Republic because the location of its core is known. If I remember the movie correctly, the First Order only learns the location of the Resistance just then so they charge up the superweapon for the second shot to wipe it out. Would be nice to know if this is the case for certain, but that's my interpretation from nothing but the movie (no books, comics, etc.).

The Millennium Falcon being on Jakku is rather convenient, but Han mentioned something about it being easy to find for some reason. Something like, "If I was able to find you this easy, the First Order will be close behind," or along those lines. Still overly convenient that he and Chewie were the first to run across it, but not completely unbelievable.

Vader used the Force plenty of times without gesture, also continued to use it after ceasing a gesture, so Ren's use of the Force is perfectly in line with the previous movies.
 

BloatedGuppy

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COMaestro said:
...as did the lack of explanation regarding the political situation in the galaxy, but otherwise I thought the movie worked quite well.
The galaxy state is explained in movie promotional materials. I'm torn. On the one hand, this shit would have been GOOD TO KNOW going in. On the other hand, I can appreciate wanting to avoid clunky exposition.

Peace Interrupted

After Years of Rebellion, the death of Emperor Palpatine gave the oppressed peoples of the galaxy undeniable evidence that the Empire could be defeated. A longing for freedom and peace drove a great tide of revolution from sector to sector, to the point where a truce - unthinkable at the height of the Galactic Civil War - was signed between the New Republic and the weakenend Empire. As one of its first acts, the restored Senate promptly passed the Military Disarmament Act. Many were convinced that the age of galaxy-wide conflict was over.

The New Republic

Following its great victory against the empire at the Battle of Endor, the Alliance to Restore the Republic rebranded itself as the New Republic, and shortly afterward a peace treaty - the Galactic Concordance - was signed with the remnants of the Empire. Believing that the Empire was no longer a threat, the New Republic turned its attention to reshaping galactic politics.

The First Order

The Galactic Concordance defanged the Empire's ability to wage war, with strict disarmament treaties and punishing reparations. The Old Empire withered away, becoming a remnant of political hardliners locked in a cold war with the New Republic, before eventually breaking away to reform in the Unknown Regions as the myseterious First Order.

The Resistance

The Resistance is a small private force created by Princess Leia Organa to keep watch on the movements of the First Order. Though she petitions the New Republic government for support, she finds the politics of the Senate too slow and too mixed in self-interest to be of any help. The New Republic tolerates the Resistance, though it is wary of risking war with the First Order.

COMaestro said:
The lightsaber was definitely the one Luke lost on Bespin.
Yep. That was also confirmed in one of the picture books released alongside the film.

COMaestro said:
I believe Ren constructed that lightsaber himself before he really fully understood how to do so, which is why it looks so unrefined.
Yeah. The unrefined/unstable nature of it is also a reflection of the character. It's the kind of simple, indirect characterization cues that Lucas has absolutely no idea how to employ. If this had been a prequel, we'd have been treated to two minutes of Snoke and Hux talking about Ren's hotheadedness in front of a static camera in shot/reverse shot.

COMaestro said:
Vader used the Force plenty of times without gesture, also continued to use it after ceasing a gesture, so Ren's use of the Force is perfectly in line with the previous movies.
There's also the consideration that Skywalker force affinity seems to get stronger as the generations move along.
 

DefunctTheory

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BloatedGuppy said:
But yeah, Hamill post weight loss looks the most...vigorous? Ford's tired face makes contextual sense when you consider his character would be weighed down by experience and grief, but I'm not sure anyone wants or needs to see a bunch of senior citizens doing stunts and gallivanting around the galaxy, so it's a good thing Hamill looks equal to the task.
Hamill blew my mind. I've seen him at conventions and he's, well... he's looked like shit for a while. Not just being a bit overweight, he just looked really bad.

But he looks fantastic in the movies. I thought it may just be Hollywood magic, but I saw a video where he dressed up as a Stormtrooper for charity, and while he was out of armor, he looked really good too. Even without his undoubtedly massive paycheck with a mouse on it he got to cash in, Star Wars has done him a world of good it seems.
 

Fappy

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AccursedTheory said:
BloatedGuppy said:
But yeah, Hamill post weight loss looks the most...vigorous? Ford's tired face makes contextual sense when you consider his character would be weighed down by experience and grief, but I'm not sure anyone wants or needs to see a bunch of senior citizens doing stunts and gallivanting around the galaxy, so it's a good thing Hamill looks equal to the task.
Hamill blew my mind. I've seen him at conventions and he's, well... he's looked like shit for a while. Not just being a bit overweight, he just looked really bad.

But he looks fantastic in the movies. I thought it may just be Hollywood magic, but I saw a video where he dressed up as a Stormtrooper for charity, and while he was out of armor, he looked really good too. Even without his undoubtedly massive paycheck with a mouse on it he got to cash in, Star Wars has done him a world of good it seems.
To be honest, he's only 64. I don't think he has any kind of debilitating physical conditions or anything like that, so as long as he stays fit and healthy I think he'll do fine at least until episode 9. I can't be the only one that wants to see him show movie audiences once and for all what the force is truly capable of. One thing the original trilogy always lacked was Luke using what he had learned to pull off something spectacular. Sure, you can say confronting Vader and rejecting the dark side counts, but we never got to see him live up to Obi-Wan and Yoda's legacy in a purely force-y way.

Remember when Yoda pulls the X-Wing out of the swamp because Luke failed to? Let's do that again, but up the ante and have Rey follow his example (after failing) at a key moment that turns the tide of the action in Act 3 of one of the next two films.