Star Wars Force Awakens Spoiler Filled discussion thread (no spoiler tags, you've been warned)

[jamail77]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Rey and Luke are respectively hidden on desert worlds because the Force is created by/sustained by "life". There is a deliberate attempt to keep them "in hibernation" so to speak, so that the forces who would harm them don't pick them up on their bloody "Force Sonar". Why would Leia have sat dormant that entire time, until Luke prodded at her to come give him a lift from Bespin? Could it be she's just not all THAT force sensitive, Skywalker blood or not?

I made a lot of edits in the time you probably responded. Here's something to keep in mind you might have missed because I edited it in after posting:

Again, Luke told Leia she would in turn learn to USE the Force. J.J. Abrams stated in interviews she could have [become a Jedi] as well and chose not to so I think that demonstrates it's not a simple matter of awakening. It's only a matter of Force sensitivity.

A lot of people actually think she will take up her heritage at some point and J.J. is giving subtle hints towards that...I'm more skeptical.

You know what the real reason is? I think a friend summed it up very well: "Carrie fisher was known to get into cocaine and drugs in the 80's therefore she lost the force. Jedi never do dope." I'm a terrible person I know.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Having just got back from the movie, I will post something that I hope will be an echo from earlier in the thread. Kylo Ren is a fucking dweeb and Rey is a Mary Sue. I want Luke to tell Rey that she isn't hot shit and I hope she carries on the family tradition of getting a hand cut off.

 

[ServebotFrank]

-Han's death was fine. I saw it coming a mile away, but I thought it was handled well. I actually like the concept of Kylo being "seduced" by the Light side, as if it's something to be resisted. It actually ties in with Mas's hints at the idea of a cycle of Light and Dark, that the Jedi and Sith were but pawns/proxies of the sides of the Force, rather than the main players themselves.

-I actually liked Poe's character...kind of. It's a plothole (one of many) how we somehow makes it back to the Resistance base from Jakku, or survived being thrown from a crashed TIE fighter (when you're thrown out of a crashing plane or car, tell me how you survived), but that he's conspicuously NOT a jerk to Finn is a nice touch.

-The ending isn't one I'd equate to the Matrix Reloaded, but it does have its own problems. Why is Rey handing out Luke's lightsaber to him? He presumably has his own (the green one), and IMO, it would regress his character to use the old one. Also, how did that lightsaber even be retrieved? It...oh yes, contrivance.

-The Resistance and First Order are at least touched on in the EU, but, yes. It's like this film went to the opposite end of the spectrum from the prequels. That it mentions a "Republic" and promptly effectively destroys that Republic in the same breath. It subverts an unexplained status quo to re-establish the OT status quo.

-Rey...ugh. Let me put it this way:

Ep. I: Anakin has no Jedi training. He has basic Force abilities, but nothing else.

Ep. II: 10 years have passed. Anakin is a competent lightsaber fighter, but is still defeated by Dooku relatively easily.

Ep. III: 3 years have passed. Anakin's at his strongest, and defeats Dooku easily. However, after a very long battle, he's finally brought down by Obi-Wan.

Ep. IV: Luke is given basic lightsaber lessons, but never uses it in combat.

Ep. V: 3 years have passed. Luke has presumably self-taught himself, and gets advice from Yoda. That said, he's still bested by Vader (as Anakin was bested by Dooku), and for similar reasons (overconfidence, rushing in), though puts up a valiant fight.

Ep. VI: 1 year has passed. Luke is now finally Vader's equal, but can only defeat him by channelling the Dark Side, and pulling himself back at the last moment. He's powerless before Palpatine, but is saved by Vader at the cost of his own life.

Ep. VII: Rey, with no lightsaber training whatsoever, and having tapped into the Force over the course of a day, beats Kylo Ren in an under-choreographed (yes, I'm calling it that) lightsaber duel.

See the problem here? Rey has given us no reason to fear Kylo Ren. Anakin and Luke both have an arc that includes their proficiency in combat, with Luke succeeding where Anakin fails. Rey has not failed. Rey is more powerful than either of them. Yes, Luke's training is smaller than Anakin's, but really? And don't say "oh, she has experience with a staff" (different weapon, different weight, diferent style) or "Ren was wounded" (he still easily beat Finn). I suppose this time Rey will beat Snoke (the Palpatine equivalent) with no help whatsoever.

Well it's not only established that Kylo is still in training, but he was hit by Chewie's Bowcaster which the movie makes a point to mention (too many times) how strong the damn thing is. Kylo pretty much took a blast from one of the strongest blasters around and he took at hit from Finn in the shoulder. Rey also is no newbie to melee fighting, she even swings the lightsaber like a staff. All the force really does in Lightsaber combat is help you predict your opponent's moves a bit better. Kylo is also kind of emotional at this point, he just killed Han and feels like he's being humiliated by Finn and Rey. Notice how he keeps hitting his open wound in order to feel more pain? He's simply too emotional during his fight with Rey to really focus. He's kind of just swinging his lightsaber like a club while Rey is totally calm. There's a lot more going onto that fight outside of the sword play that contributed to Kylo's loss. I imagine the next movie will have Rey lose.

Finn also didn't look like he had too much experience with melee combat, he wielded the lightsaber with two hands swung it around like a baseball bat like he didn't know what he was doing.

Also Luke does not have his green lightsaber, he threw it away on the Death Star after he defeated Vader and rejected Palpatine. It was him realizing that he doesn't need the lightsaber anymore not trusting himself with it. So unless he went back and grabbed it after throwing it away dramatically, he probably doesn't possess a lightsaber anymore.

 

[Nazulu]

I was more laughing at this place being populated by the goth kids from South Park. But there is a point where you might want to admit the problem could be you instead of everyone else as crazy as that sounds.

Your comment (and this one) is really mean spirited and I'm the one that could have the problem -_-

Even if you were right about the people complaining, you are still the one lighting the flames.

 

[StormShaun]

It was good, but the hype failed me, and it even wasn't because of the spoilers I ran into.

As many people are pointing out, I also felt that it was too close to Episode 4.
Mostly because it felt like a start... and not a start of a new trilogy, but a COMPLETE new start.
As we know though, a lot of the expanded universe got cut, but still, the universe is there, it IS big, and I didn't feel like we saw much of it.

From the start, we see that Luke is "THE LAST JEDI", which only made me go "whaaat?" Like, really, he tried to set up the Jedi Academy, got wreaked by Ren, and nobody except him got out. That's a little annoying, wouldn't there be some other force/saber users good enough to leave or run? There must be, I refuse to admit that all the Jedi just simply lost and got 99% destroyed. Heck, I bet some from Order 66 survived... somehow. I... I just hope there are MORE Jedi. It's only so I can hope for some more Jedi characters in the future.
Heck, add Kyle Katarn and other popular EU characters, whatever would make the world FEEL like it has been thirty years after the Ep 6.

I won't bother with story, since I was okay with it, and once again, it felt a lot like Episode 4.
So I'll deal with the new characters. I'll say this first... I want more Captain Phasma, I don't know, but just from those few scenes, I really like her, but I can tell they're trying to make her the new Fett... unless he's alive, which would make many people happy. Still, more Phasma, heck, if SHE can be turned, that'll be even more interesting. I can imagine she could be involved in a sub-story that gets the Republic the clone troopers from the prequels. (Which means Republic Commando 2. )

Speaking about the Republic, we really didn't get much of it. I saw the Resistance and Republic as two sides of the same coin. One keeps the peace, the other keeps fighting. Still, I have no idea why they had to call the Remnant "The First Order", plus like many others, I have no idea how they kept a lot of their power... FOR THIRTY YEARS!

Anyway, the character I liked after that was Finn. I've ALWAYS wanted to see a "good" Stormtrooper, and I liked how he wanted to run, but is most likely wanting to fight, and now he's basically Poe's bff. What disappointed me, was the end with the lightsaber fight. Yes, naturally I can't expect him to do anything good since he's a newbie with it, but it could have been a little longer. After all, I'm sure many of us were thirsting after more saber fights. Yet, nah, he gets countered as you would in Dark Souls 2, and is now out of the fight... for now.

It disappointed me, because I REALLY wanted him to become a Jedi. I wanted HIM to be the subject of the title (I mean, I don't mind Ray, but I'll say about that in a second).
Heck, in this case, I still hope he becomes a Jedi. Because even if Ray becomes a Jedi, I can see her more as a "Jedi Consular", and I could see Finn become a "Jedi Guardian." At least as a good in saber combat and a slow force learner.

As said before, I just want more Jedi... but then again, no everyone can be a Jedi.

Onto Ray, I'll admit, I like her. A good hero character, but I feel that they're pushing "She's Luke's daughter" vibes. I'd just plain hate it if that's revealed in Ep 8, because then it'll be episode 5 all over again! Anyway, just like Finn, I like how she started, and where she went to develop. My tiny problem here, was once again the end saber fight. Finn got nailed, yet, somehow, Ray actually somewhat fought, even if that was the first time she revealed the blue blade. Even if you can call Deus ex force", she JUST got it. Ren/Ben should have at least got hit once or twice, but THAT many times.

Spoiler

So yeah, she was pretty OP there.
Anyway, I'm gonna call it quits here for my rant, I just hope that there is a more original plot in the next episode.
Other than that, I liked it. (Well, except how the "Internet spoiler" part was very telegraphed, and how weak Ren was. >.>)

Also, Poe was cool.
I can see him as the new Wedge.
But with that question, where is Wedge? (At least in the movie/EP 7 timeline)

 

[Fdzzaigl]

I don't think so, in the films, the first, Luke doesn't even face Vader, the second he gets utterly destroyed and only in the 3rd he manages to beat him, with the time between films can be between months and years. Ray defeating Darth Zuko is like kid-Anakin defeating Darth Maul in its stupidity especially as she wasn't trained in the force AT ALL until the events in the film. Besides, supposedly Zuko is the best student of Darth Titan, it destroys any build up to a fight in the next films.

Do you really believe "Darth Zuko" compares to Vader or Maul? His obvious lack of self-control and the fact that he nearly collapses not only from his wounds but from grief over what the hell just happened between him and his father should make that fairly obvious.

Again though, training has a place in the universe, but it's not the main thing that matters. The force has always been about
a) overcoming impossible odds
b) connections between people and the events they're in through time and space, sometimes even linking itself with objects that have some significance.

This obsession with "power levels" crap is a recent development. I'm happy to see it go.

Plus I've got a feeling "Darth Zuko" will not be the main villain throughout the rest of the films, or not the only one anyhow.

 

[kris40k]

I feel they are going to be our new protagonists, with Po taking on the role of Han Solo, even if Rey now owns the Millennium Falcon.

I made an offhand comment about Rey having the Falcon now, and my GF corrected me, "Like hell, the Falcon is Chewie's; he just gave her a ride to Luke." and I realised that I made the assumption that it was her's now, but thinking about it, it makes complete sense that Han would have left it to Chewbacca who had been his co-pilot/lifebro forever.

 

[Yojoo]

The film rocked.

People are seriously misinterpreting the final fight between Rey and Kylo. Kylo looked all cool, but he is revealed to be critically under-trained and extremely conflicted. Plus, he took a damned bowcaster shot to the abdomen, so I was surprised he was still standing by the end of the film.

Rey, meanwhile, clearly represents something that we haven't yet seen in Star Wars. The title of this episode was "The Force Awakens", after all, which could easily suggest some form of personification of the Force. Somehow, this unassuming scavenger girl is connected personally and spiritually with the war raging around her, and she inexplicably finds the power to take a major role in the conflict. Accepting that seems, to me, to be roughly on the same level of suspension of disbelief as accepting Luke shooting down the Death Star in his first ever time piloting an X-wing without the aid of a targeting computer. We've been accepting "strong in the force" as a viable explanation for impossible feats in this series since 1977.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Accepting that seems, to me, to be roughly on the same level of suspension of disbelief as accepting Luke shooting down the Death Star in his first ever time piloting an X-wing without the aid of a targeting computer. We've been accepting "strong in the force" as a viable explanation for impossible feats in this series since 1977.

Amen brother.

I'm going to cross post myself from Reddit:

As much as there are numerous contextual clues supporting Kylo Ren's hindrance during that fight, we can also credit Rey with being an exceptionally powerful force sensitive. Like Luke, she was hidden on a desert planet with minimal life to keep her powers in hibernation so she wouldn't be immediately sniffed out. Like Luke, once she's thrown into situations of physical and mental stress her abilities start rapidly emerging. Like Luke, she is able to reach out to the Force during moments of extreme need and find a reserve of strength/ability that was not previously available.

That fight had a lot of stuff going on for BOTH of the characters, and a nice dichotomy between the two of them in terms of how they reached for strength (Ben through the murder of his father and pounding his wound to fire his rage, Rey in a moment of tranquility and surrender to the Force).

 

[Dazzle Novak]

The film rocked.

People are seriously misinterpreting the final fight between Rey and Kylo. Kylo looked all cool, but he is revealed to be critically under-trained and extremely conflicted. Plus, he took a damned bowcaster shot to the abdomen, so I was surprised he was still standing by the end of the film.

Rey, meanwhile, clearly represents something that we haven't yet seen in Star Wars. The title of this episode was "The Force Awakens", after all, which could easily suggest some form of personification of the Force. Somehow, this unassuming scavenger girl is connected personally and spiritually with the war raging around her, and she inexplicably finds the power to take a major role in the conflict. Accepting that seems, to me, to be roughly on the same level of suspension of disbelief as accepting Luke shooting down the Death Star in his first ever time piloting an X-wing without the aid of a targeting computer. We've been accepting "strong in the force" as a viable explanation for impossible feats in this series since 1977.

The fact you're trying to make this theory sound new and exciting (You mean to tell me there's a character of seemingly humble origins who's be "chosen" to fulfill some grand destiny? I do say, sir/madam, that is most unorthodox!) is the crux of my issues with the movie.

The "chosen one" monomyth shit is my least favorite part of Star Wars. Luke being able to fly military vessels because he presumably flew the equivalent of a crop duster for funsies in Space Arkansas is contrived horseshit, too. That doesn't make it a good idea to repeat 40 years later and that contrivance was offset by the fact Luke doesn't get to use his lightsaber in combat or dabble in Space Wizardry at all in A New Hope. Obi Wan lets him play with it to train on the way to Alderaan and that's only to set up the "Don't trust your eyes. Use the force" bit in the finale. The whole movie Chekhov Guns Luke's "one-in-a-million" shot, so it feels earned. Rey can Jedi Mind Trick and force grab from jump simply because it'd be unfortunate for her if she couldn't.

I don't mind Rey being able to fly the Millennium Falcon. I cheered when she pulled that boss maneuver so Finn could line up his shot. I gave a pass to all the "I speak Wookiee and can fix anything" stuff. I acknowledge that Kylo Ren was grievously wounded. That doesn't mean I have to misremember A New Hope and act like Rey's arc matched Luke's. It doesn't. Luke could barely force grab his own lightsaber when it was three feet away in Empire Strikes Back. He was partially dismembered the first time he went against a lightsaber-wielding opponent who was holding back.

All this griping aside, I'm excited to pay and go see the movie a second time. Not everyone who's bringing up complaints are joyless haters trying to rain on the parade.

 

[Exley97_v1legacy]

The film rocked.

People are seriously misinterpreting the final fight between Rey and Kylo. Kylo looked all cool, but he is revealed to be critically under-trained and extremely conflicted. Plus, he took a damned bowcaster shot to the abdomen, so I was surprised he was still standing by the end of the film.

Also, I got the feeling that he sort of underestimated just how Force sensitive Rey was and, when he had her on the edge of that cliff, wasn't entirely intent on killing her and instead wanted to turn her to the Dark Side (hence the line: "You need a teacher. I can show you the ways of the Force.")

Rey, meanwhile, clearly represents something that we haven't yet seen in Star Wars. The title of this episode was "The Force Awakens", after all, which could easily suggest some form of personification of the Force. Somehow, this unassuming scavenger girl is connected personally and spiritually with the war raging around her, and she inexplicably finds the power to take a major role in the conflict. Accepting that seems, to me, to be roughly on the same level of suspension of disbelief as accepting Luke shooting down the Death Star in his first ever time piloting an X-wing without the aid of a targeting computer. We've been accepting "strong in the force" as a viable explanation for impossible feats in this series since 1977.

YES. A thousand times, yes. I'm not sure why people think what Rey did was any less plausible than a farm boy totally untrained in the Force rocking a blaster and taking out Storm Troopers left and right (without getting hit once), swinging across a ravine in the Death Star with Leia on his hip, blowing TIE Fighters into pices on the Falcon, and yes, piloting an X-Wing, for the first time, and blowing up the goddamn Death Star.

All this fucking "Mary Sue" garbage about Rey is just that -- garbage.

 

[Dazzle Novak]

Calling Rey a Mary Sue is bullshit. Mary Suedom relates to a character's placement within a story ( i.e. does the universe and all the characters' lives seem to revolve around them?) not their skillset; making Mary Sues hyper-competent is simply how most hack writers justify the former aspect. Bella Swan is a Mary Sue and she sucks canonically being described as "plain-looking", "clumsy", etc. while demonstrating no talents whatsoever.

Turning around and calling Luke, as he stood by the end of A New Hope "the REAL Mary Sue" is both self-contradictory and inaccurate, however.

 

[Saltyk]

I feel they are going to be our new protagonists, with Po taking on the role of Han Solo, even if Rey now owns the Millennium Falcon.

I made an offhand comment about Rey having the Falcon now, and my GF corrected me, "Like hell, the Falcon is Chewie's; he just gave her a ride to Luke." and I realised that I made the assumption that it was her's now, but thinking about it, it makes complete sense that Han would have left it to Chewbacca who had been his co-pilot/lifebro forever.

On the other hand, Han was going to let her join his crew. And the Falcon needs at least two people to fly effectively. A pilot and co-pilot, if not also a gunner. So it's not like Chewie will be kicking her out of the ship. It may be his ship, but I fully expect Rey to be the pilot from here on.

Though, it would make sense for Chewie to be the official owner. He and Han have been friends for decades at this point and the both cared for each other, like brothers.

 

[wizzy555]

I think the Mary Sue people have a bit of a point. But I'm holding off on it because her backstory is still a mystery.

 

[Blitsie]

Know what was the most disappointing though? They had The Raid crew in... and they didn't let them use their amazing martial arts to create an amazing spectacle with. How can you have martial artists from one of the best martial arts movies ever made and only have one say like two lines and then cast them aside?

Spoiler: Missed opportunity! Dammit Abrams!!

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Turning around and calling Luke, as he stood by the end of A New Hope "the REAL Mary Sue" is both self-contradictory and inaccurate, however.

Well to be fair, galactic events do kind of conspire and revolve around the Skywalker dynasty. You could argue that lineage is a "Mary Sue" in the respect that everything of note in the film series tilts on whatever the Skywalkers happen to be up to.

The "chosen one" monomyth shit is my least favorite part of Star Wars. Luke being able to fly military vessels because he presumably flew the equivalent of a crop duster for funsies in Space Arkansas is contrived horseshit, too.

I'm sympathetic to that, but I'm curious at that juncture what it is you LIKE about Star Wars. Serious minded science fiction this is not. You've got ships lined up like naval vessels all within the range of human eyesight poking at each other with lasers. You've got aliens and humans all co-existing comfortably in the atmosphere of dozens of different planets without any kind of assistance. You've got a mystical "force" that is a stand in for 'magic did it' that defines the central protagonist/antagonist factions of the series. The list goes on and on.

I guess I made my peace with its camp and cornball elements a long time ago, and view them as part of its essential charm.

 

[Exley97_v1legacy]

Calling Rey a Mary Sue is bullshit. Mary Suedom relates to a character's placement within a story ( i.e. does the universe and all the characters' lives seem to revolve around them?) not their skillset; making Mary Sues hyper-competent is simply how most hack writers justify the former aspect. Bella Swan is a Mary Sue and she sucks canonically being described as "plain-looking", "clumsy", etc. while demonstrating no talents whatsoever.

Turning around and calling Luke, as he stood by the end of A New Hope "the REAL Mary Sue" is both self-contradictory and inaccurate, however.

To be clear, I'm not saying that about Luke. I'm not going to pull out some "Mary Stew" bullshit here because we're talking about STAR WARS, which is essentially a fantasy/magic tale in space. I'm just saying I agree with Yojoo's point that Rey's ascendance in TFA is in keeping with Luke's ascendance in ANH, and if people accept the latter but not the former, well, that's just inconsistent.

Side Note: I had to Google "Bella Swan."

 

[kris40k]

On the other hand, Han was going to let her join his crew. And the Falcon needs at least two people to fly effectively. A pilot and co-pilot, if not also a gunner. So it's not like Chewie will be kicking her out of the ship. It may be his ship, but I fully expect Rey to be the pilot from here on.

Though, it would make sense for Chewie to be the official owner. He and Han have been friends for decades at this point and the both cared for each other, like brothers.

True, the ship does need a couple people to crew it well. My GF also mentioned that she could be his co-pilot, going forward. Which I think depends on how long of a time jump they are going to make between Ep.7 and 8. I suspect they are going to jump forward a few years, with some "flashbacks" showing Rey and Luke's initial conversations, so that when 8 starts off they can have Rey have a bit of training under her belt, Kylo Ren would have had time to head back to Snoke to "complete his training", and Finn will have recovered and joined the Resistance proper. During that time, I don't think that Chewbacca is going to playing dejarik with R2 on the Falcon for a few years straight, so he's probably going to be going off-world a bit with the ship (maybe head back to Kashyyyk for a Life Day special.)

 

[BloatedGuppy]

It was a really, deeply, truly cynical cash grab. I don't think we're going to see a truly new moment in three movies, it's going to be pure and unrelenting fanservice. It's going to make billions too.

They wouldn't have needed to dedicate a quarter of the new film to fan service if the previous three hadn't alienated and disgruntled a substantial portion of the fan base. Did you think they were going to be wildly experimental? What if it flopped? Do you think the fans would be tolerant of a fourth shit show? Disney paid FOUR BILLION DOLLARS for the franchise. Of course they played it safe.

Expecting them to continue doing it going forward, given they have plans for six of the things already and likely more beyond that, is demonstrative of where the cynicism in this discussion actually lies.

 

[Kajin]

I didn't forget it and I kept that in mind after seeing the movie the first time but I've seen it 3 times now (Midnight, next day, then biggest screen in southern hemisphere just for the experience) and he got shot by the bolt but moments before Rey closes her eyes and becomes super jesus Kylo is barely showing it, if at all, he isn't bothered by the pain and easily overpowers Rey to get close to her and offer his teachings to her.

If the damage he sustained earlier was supposed to be a big factor in why Rey beat him, it should have actually been showing, so either it wasn't a factor at all and the force is completely stupid now, or the director was/is terrible and had no idea how to show the audience Kylo was actually in danger.

I took that to mean that to mean that he was
A.) hyped up on adrenaline and/or relying on a part of his training to ignore the pain and persevere
B.) superior enough of a fighter/force user that he's able to shrug his way through all that punishment and still give Rey a run for her money until it all catches up to him at the end, thus allowing her to get the upper hand.

Either option, not even taking into account that it's likely both at the same time, could account for the events as displayed. I don't see how it's farcical to think that a complete psychopath could manage to shrug off such grievous injury for at least some time before succumbing to his wounds.