Star Wars Force Awakens Spoiler Filled discussion thread (no spoiler tags, you've been warned)

[BloatedGuppy]

Technically, we wouldn't even need finn or poe, since the tie fighter escape was extraneous to the plot. BB8 was already on the planet with rey, and the first order was looking for it. Cue escape/han meeting/resistance base. Even Finns 'vital intel' was something a spy could have given. Reps not the only one would could be removed without harm.

You could just have BB8 land on the planet, send out a distress signal, and get picked up by a passing Resistance pilot. THE END.

 

[Lightknight]

Maybe there will be a two-hour longer special edition that will become the gold standard of the form of this movie.

I think if you set about anticipating a 4.5 hour TFA special edition you're going to be sorely disappointed. If there are deleted scenes, they'll likely add up to less than 10 minutes of running time, and it will almost certainly be immediately apparent that most were deleted for a cogent reason.

I mean, probably, but don't forget the vast sum of money Lucas amassed by piecemeal additions and alterations of early versions. The movies already have a consumer base that has been largely dependent on that kind of crappy "dlc" movie modeling.

So I'm not sure if you or I should be surprised if exactly this happens. If there is any brand that comes to mind where this happens, it's Lord of the Rings Star Wars.

 

[Lightknight]

Maybe there will be a two-hour longer special edition that will become the gold standard of the form of this movie.

I think if you set about anticipating a 4.5 hour TFA special edition you're going to be sorely disappointed. If there are deleted scenes, they'll likely add up to less than 10 minutes of running time, and it will almost certainly be immediately apparent that most were deleted for a cogent reason.

I mean, probably, but don't forget the vast sum of money Lucas amassed by piecemeal additions and alterations of early versions. The movies already have a consumer base that has been largely dependent on that kind of crappy "dlc" movie modeling.

So I'm not sure if you or I should be surprised if exactly this happens. If there is any brand that comes to mind where this happens, it's Lord of the Rings Star Wars.

It would actually be strange if they left that kind of money on the table, and film stock is cheap. Film everything, it takes months to make a movie, and it costs little to keep behind-the-scenes cameras running.

I'd be shocked if this didn't turn out to be 3-4 edition "Work of Art".

Sure, and it was already pointed out that the director re-shot the original scenes where Finn and Rey met up and got to know each other. Are they just going to pretend that those scenes don't exist when releasing them (especially if finished) would warrant a whole new edition?

I mean, it's cruddy business but if such a version of the movie comes into existence then at least it would be a well-paced and more believable version of the film than what was released (though, again, I still enjoyed the film).

 

[jamail77]

Also another thing, considering the fight, I wonder if she'll ever get actually hurt or lose a limb, because female mutilation is far worse then male mutilation for our society, and I doubt the writers have the balls to do that.

Damn right!

Can you imagine the reaction to a female character missing a limb?

Our oversensitive society would buckle under the weight of the ensuing outrage! There would be blood! The SJWs would riot in the streets!

No script writer would ever dare allow such a shocking spectacle to make the screen.

Spoiler: Oh wait.

Spoiler: Though, it's not quite a limb

Nice to see some more people who didn't think the prequel lightsaber fights were all that and a glass of blue milk. Seems like this new trilogy will go beyond the fighting of the originals in spectacle without taking it into the realm of ridiculousness.

 

[Sozora]

I just realized something: Rey is filler that could easily be written out of the plot.

Think about it: all she does is point BB9 towards an outpost, flies the Falcon, saves Finn from a situation everyone knows is pointless filler, gets captured, immediately escapes and then gets into a fight with Kylo.

Here's the thing though, Finn could easily have all the set pieces for the plot happen without her being there. Outside of needing a pilot for the escape from Jakku she could be removed completely. Have someone, anyone, pilot the Falcon for that one scene and change Finn's motivation for helping the Resistance be genuinely wanting to help and boom, you've written one of the dual protagonists out of the movie completely.

Fin wouldn't even need a pilot to get off Jakku, he crashed with Poe the best pilot in the resistance. They would have just needed to find a ship, and it would have made more sense then having him disappear from the crash site and then just show back up later in his X-wing like nothing happened.

See, it was that bit that made me think Poe was supposed to stick around more in the first half of the movie, particularly with the Falcon. Finn takes gunner, Poe flies, and Rey co-pilots and fixes things. Boom. All three characters, all in roles we know they're theoretically capable of doing. It just feels like they re-edited the first half at the last second.

 

[Sozora]

I felt the lightsaber battles of the prequels were one of the things they got right. I even love the fight against Grievous, though Obi Wan just nipping a hit in here or there was a tremendously uninspired way of overcoming him.

Actually, I found it to be quite brilliant. Obi Wan's whole style revolves around defense and counter attacks, while Grevious is pretty much pure offense. Obi was literally the best Jedi for the job.

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

Finally saw it today, as the last movie of 2015 for me. It was fun, the characters were mostly engaging and well rounded, the action was fine. I'm still a bit torn on whether it went too hard on the nostalgia fishing (not only repeating plot points, but literally entire iconic scenes from the originals, right down to the environments), but for now I liked it. I think it probably took a little too long for them to get off the desert planet: first we're on it, then we're on the empire ('cuz that's what I'm going to call them!) ships, and then we're back on the desert planet some more. And some more. And some more. Until we finally get to space.

I did like Kylo Ren. If Vader was cold iron, Ren was molten iron: potentially more instantaneously dangerous, but still bendable and unstable. He felt human as a villain, which, especially given his backstory, could potentially take him to Vader or Heath Ledger's Joker calibre in terms of movie villainy if they do him right in the following films. Also the decision to go back to the heavier, more visceral lightsaber fights I liked, since it had far more sense of physicality and danger to it.

As a movie on its own it's a solid 6 or 7 out of 10. Seeing as we still have two movies to go, that could go up or down depending on how well the setup pays off. I would also be remiss if I didn't mention how hot Daisy Ridley was. I rarely get hung up on the looks of actors, since it has nothing to do with the movie's quality, but by god she was gorgeous.

Also: 2000TH POST MUDDAFUKKAS!!! Only took me almost seven years, when there's users with a post counts in the thousands who have been here for seven months.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Okay, I just saw it... And this all coming from a guy who wouldn't self-apply the star wars label. In the past I've found all the films rather boring, except 3... but 3 I only dug because of Vader finally turning heel.

I give it an 8/10. And it's barely hitting that 8.

Oh my god does this film have pacing issues. Thankfully the visuals are so eye-candy pretty, but I went from really digging the story to getting to the point where I was like "Okay, end movie"

I loved Finn quite a bit, probably the most relatable character I've seen in the Star Wars universe. I would of liked his character to have a bit more conflict about fighting though considering he first sees that dead storm trooper and it seems to affect him quite a bit... but scenes later he's just slaughtering them away. That's a minor gripe though. I like that the Storm Troopers are actually a pretty serious threat now.

What everyone is saying about Rey being the biggest Mary Sue since John Cena... oh God, I can totally see it. The movie really beats you over the head just how capable she is. Almost as if it really is say "LOOKK!!!! STRONG FEMALE CHARACTER!!! WERE SO PROGRESSIVE!!!" and right when she seems to almost get a character arch where she runs off into the woods... she doesn't get to resolve that conflict cause the plot moves forward. However, I can forgive her John Cena-ness since this is only part 1 of her story. In a way, this movie felt more like Finn's story and setting up Rey for her story.

Kylo Ren was everything I wanted him to be. Loved him. Loved the temper tantrums. Loved how he killed Han.

Loved the nearly-self aware humor at points. I loved Han's reaction to the new death star.

I don't like the romance between Rey and Finn, that felt forced. Finn JUST escaped the Space Nazi's and he's got a serious crush on the FIRST pretty girl he sees? C'mon. It's unnecessary, and should of just been a friendship, at least to start with. Then again I can't imagine Storm Troopers are well socialized so maybe it makes sense he'd be that bluntly obvious about his feelings but I'm not sure how I feel about him charging in blindly head first JUST to save his instant pal. Meh. But in a Opera way I suppose it does work.

It's a very decent movie on it's own. Very solid. Also felt very safe, artistically.

For a breif moment though, when they first land the falcon on that grass planet with the bar, I thought to myself how cool would a Doctor Who movie be with this kinda budget... Kinda sad there won't ever be one.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

For a breif moment though, when they first land the falcon on that grass planet with the bar, I thought to myself how cool would a Doctor Who movie be with this kinda budget... Kinda sad there won't ever be one.

Isn't having no budget kind of Doctor Who's *thing* though?

I feel like without it's budget, it would lose it's essential "Whoness". Mind you, I've come to believe Doctor Who is secretly terrible, so maybe that would be a good thing. I'll show myself out.

 

[Drathnoxis]

I was so bored! The movie was one plot contrivance after another, there were hardly any moments in the film that felt like a natural progression from what came before. Not only that, but so many elements were rehashed from A New Hope. I'd go into more detail but Joccaren pretty much nailed all the major points on the first page, and the rest were covered in the other 10.

One thing that has hardly been covered though is: why is everybody looking for Luke??

Luke's been moping on some mountain for 20 years and hasn't shown any intention of returning, why is everybody expending thousands of troops in a mad pursuit for him? I can't think of a reason for anybody to want to find him. It's not like Rey wanted to find him so he could train her because she didn't even know she had the force for half the film. The other good guys don't have a reason to look for him either, especially since nobody else bothers to go with Rey to see him at the end. The bad guys maybe want to find him and kill him because he's a Jedi and they're Sith and killing Jedi is what Sith do. That's a really weak excuse though, also Luke's already been disgraced and taken himself out of the game, there isn't really much point in pursuing the matter further.

This is the main plot for the film and I don't think we were ever given an explanation for it. How can I get invested in the heroes plight if it's not made clear why I should care if they ever accomplish their goal? It's like the writer just thought, "oh well everybody in the audience wants to see Luke, since he was the protagonist in the OT, that's enough motivation."

Also Luke is kind of a jerk! He makes everybody run through hoops to find him by splitting his map coordinates into multiple pieces and hiding them in various locations, like he's so great and troubled that anybody who wants to see him should have to go through a treasure hunt to find him. Why didn't he just tell Leia what mountains he was hiking in and not to bother him unless it was really important?

 

[Drathnoxis]

And people keep forgetting that Kylo Ren was shot by the Star Wars equivalent of a .50 cal just moments before the duel. He was bleeding out.

I didn't forget it and I kept that in mind after seeing the movie the first time but I've seen it 3 times now (Midnight, next day, then biggest screen in southern hemisphere just for the experience) and he got shot by the bolt but moments before Rey closes her eyes and becomes super jesus Kylo is barely showing it, if at all, he isn't bothered by the pain and easily overpowers Rey to get close to her and offer his teachings to her.

If the damage he sustained earlier was supposed to be a big factor in why Rey beat him, it should have actually been showing, so either it wasn't a factor at all and the force is completely stupid now, or the director was/is terrible and had no idea how to show the audience Kylo was actually in danger.

Yeah, I never got the impression that he was overly bothered by that wound he got. I actually thought that he had some sort of special space armor due to how little he reacted to the bowcaster shot and how little damage getting tagged with the lightsaber did. I also never got why he kept hitting himself, it all probably should have been made clearer since it really didn't look like he was just hanging on through force of will.

EDIT: Also guys, most of your "plot holes" (how did the sabre end up there for example) will probably be explained in the next 4 hours of the trilogy, we've got quite a bit of time left

I don't think there is any explanation that could cover this.
Luke dropped his lightsaber into Bespin the gas giant, it should have burned up as it fell through the increasingly dense layers of gas and possibly into the molten core. Even if it somehow didn't melt, gas giants are, well, positively giant and not exactly the kind of place anybody could find anything on purpose let alone by accident.

 

[ravenlordhun]

This movie taught me that experience and training simply do not matter.

First of all, why does anyone spend money on training pilots if a slave-girl who can barely take off with the Falcon can out-manoeuvre TWO professional fighter pilots? Seriously, just mass-manufacture TIE fighters with drones at the helms. Same ineffective, but a lot cheaper.

Secondarily, why did the Jedi Order even exist? Apparently if the Force awakens in you, you instantly gain enough know-how to beat down a Sith (who already had some degree of training). So uh... what was the purpose of having a whole Order dedicated to training and whatnot? Bragging rights? Tax evasion?

Thirdly, even if you have a whole organisation of brainwashed Troopers, the head trooper will fold under pressure like wet tissue paper. Makes me wonder why her troopers - who are supposedly less badass - don't just turn tail and run away at the first sign of trouble. Also makes me wonder why they bother with brainwashing if this is the best they can get?

 

[Skin]

Just saw it a few days ago. They literally just ripped off the 4th movie. The story is almost exactly the god damn same? Why aren't there more people criticizing it?

And of course the MC is the most boring, bland, paper-thin, unengaging, can-do-no-wrong, Mary-Sue fuckwit in the entire film. I hated Luke and I hate this boring ***** Ray.

Not a Star Wars fan anyway, Episode 1 was my favorite film of the series and apparently that is blasphemy. It was a nice, safe, fun film and nothing more.

 

[Neverhoodian]

This movie taught me that experience and training simply do not matter.

First of all, why does anyone spend money on training pilots if a slave-girl who can barely take off with the Falcon can out-manoeuvre TWO professional fighter pilots? Seriously, just mass-manufacture TIE fighters with drones at the helms. Same ineffective, but a lot cheaper.

Secondarily, why did the Jedi Order even exist? Apparently if the Force awakens in you, you instantly gain enough know-how to beat down a Sith (who already had some degree of training). So uh... what was the purpose of having a whole Order dedicated to training and whatnot? Bragging rights? Tax evasion?

Thirdly, even if you have a whole organisation of brainwashed Troopers, the head trooper will fold under pressure like wet tissue paper. Makes me wonder why her troopers - who are supposedly less badass - don't just turn tail and run away at the first sign of trouble. Also makes me wonder why they bother with brainwashing if this is the best they can get?

To be fair, this was one of the Empire's major pitfalls in the classic trilogy. After all, Palpatine boasted that "an entire legion of my best troops" was lying in wait on Endor, only to have them be defeated by a tribe of rock-chucking teddy bears. Despite that, they still look like total badasses compared to the comically inept Battle Droids of the Trade Federation. Even the Expanded Universe generally followed this pattern; Kyle Katarn single-handedly slaughters entire armies of Stormtroopers in the Jedi Knight series and the player character cuts through plenty of Sith troops in KOTOR, even before they become a Jedi.

Bad guy mooks are meant to be cannon fodder in Star Wars. You just gotta roll with it.

As for Rey's abilities, yeah, I am inclined to agree. However, it's not that big of a stretch when one compares protagonists of the other films. After all, the Skywalker family (which Rey may be a member of) boasts such prodigies as an inexperienced farm hand who destroyed the Death Star without his targeting computer using a ship he had never flown before and a nine-year old boy who participated in races that were supposedly impossible for human reflexes and derailed an entire invasion fleet. Also, Kylo Ren isn't a Sith (no "Darth" moniker) and was physically (and probably emotionally) wrecked by the time he clashed sabers with Rey.

 

[DoPo]

First of all, why does anyone spend money on training pilots if a slave-girl who can barely take off with the Falcon can out-manoeuvre TWO professional fighter pilots? Seriously, just mass-manufacture TIE fighters with drones at the helms. Same ineffective, but a lot cheaper.

I don't think Rey was a slave girl. At any rate, her proficiency with the Millenium Falcon was nothing that extraordinary - she does say she has pilot experience, only she never flew off the planet. The chase was on the planet. Moreover, she is very familiar with the ship and with good reason - it belonged to that humanoid Jabba guy who was her...well, I don't think "master" but certainly in that ballpark, which meant that she has worked on the ship, if not even flown the ship. Furthermore, since she had been looking up to Han Solo, and that looked like Han Solo's ship, she might have had a further interest in it. Little did she know, it was the genuine thing.

This is all stuff that has justufication in her background - she can fly, she can fly the Millenium Falcon - that's not actually that strange.

But furthermore, her outmaneuvering the TIE fighters is not really that strange, either - it was means of showing she was Force Sensitive. Also a big thing in the movie.

You are complaining about something that's had quite a lot of justification in the movie.

Secondarily, why did the Jedi Order even exist? Apparently if the Force awakens in you, you instantly gain enough know-how to beat down a Sith (who already had some degree of training). So uh... what was the purpose of having a whole Order dedicated to training and whatnot? Bragging rights? Tax evasion?

Umm, very simple answer - train the people so they don't go over to the Dark Side. You may have had a point if being a Jedi was about casting space spells. It's not. You don't have a point.

 

[ravenlordhun]

To be fair, this was one of the Empire's major pitfalls in the classic trilogy. After all, Palpatine boasted that "an entire legion of my best troops" was lying in wait on Endor, only to have them be defeated by a tribe of rock-chucking teddy bears. Despite that, they still look like total badasses compared to the comically inept Battle Droids of the Trade Federation. Even the Expanded Universe generally followed this pattern; Kyle Katarn single-handedly slaughters entire armies of Stormtroopers in the Jedi Knight series and the player character cuts through plenty of Sith troops in KOTOR, even before they become a Jedi.

Bad guy mooks are meant to be cannon fodder in Star Wars. You just gotta roll with it.

Yeah, I understand that... but it's just, it irks me. Whenever I see a TIE fighter or a Stormtrooper, I no longer have the foreboding sense of "oh goodness, the Empire's here, shit's gonna hit the fan". I'm more along the lines of "Oh the Empire's here, I wonder how these idiots are going to get massacred this time".

These guys have decayed from supposed elite to clowns with expensive toys. As for comparing them to the droids, I don't know - the droids were really bad, but Stormtroopers don't really have anything to show for being any better. So there was a singular trooper who managed to duel a confused and panicking Fynn? Hooo-rah. The MagnaGuards did better - they could hold their own against mediocre jedi even. And they could be mass-manufactured, too.

I guess my biggest gripe is that I just don't see any justification for keeping the armed forces of First Order around. Against anything that can fight back, they are barely more than a speedbump.

As for Rey's abilities, yeah, I am inclined to agree. However, it's not that big of a stretch when one compares protagonists of the other films. After all, the Skywalker family (which Rey may be a member of) boasts such prodigies as an inexperienced farm hand who destroyed the Death Star without his targeting computer using a ship he had never flown before and a nine-year old boy who participated in races that were supposedly impossible for human reflexes and derailed an entire invasion fleet. Also, Kylo Ren isn't a Sith (no "Darth" moniker) and was physically (and probably emotionally) wrecked by the time he clashed sabers with Rey.

When you put it into that context, it does look different. I guess I had nostalgia going in full force... and haa, Kylo isn't a Sith yet indeed! Wait a mminute, does this this was the first SW movie with no Sith on display?! (Discounting holograms of course.)

One minor nitpick, though: bleeding or not, Kylo wasn't showing any signs of being seriously wounded. He managed to catch up to two people who had a headstart, and he never showed pain during the duel either. He didn't even grimace. He kept hitting his side for sure, but I never had the feeling he was in any serious pain. One could argue his pain treshold was just that high, but then why did he start screaming bloody murder when Flynn stabbed him in the shoulder? I mean, lightsabers hurt but bowcasters don't?

I don't think Rey was a slave girl. At any rate, her proficiency with the Millenium Falcon was nothing that extraordinary - she does say she has pilot experience, only she never flew off the planet. The chase was on the planet. Moreover, she is very familiar with the ship and with good reason - it belonged to that humanoid Jabba guy who was her...well, I don't think "master" but certainly in that ballpark, which meant that she has worked on the ship, if not even flown the ship. Furthermore, since she had been looking up to Han Solo, and that looked like Han Solo's ship, she might have had a further interest in it. Little did she know, it was the genuine thing.

This is all stuff that has justufication in her background - she can fly, she can fly the Millenium Falcon - that's not actually that strange.

But furthermore, her outmaneuvering the TIE fighters is not really that strange, either - it was means of showing she was Force Sensitive. Also a big thing in the movie.

You are complaining about something that's had quite a lot of justification in the movie.

If she was so force sensitive at that point already, then why did she have such a difficult take-off? I mean, the movie clearly shows her struggling at the helm... and then she takes an immediate upgrade to being a better pilot than trained professionals.

I could understand her besting the fighters if she was really that proficient with the Falcon, but then I don't understand why she demolished the camp. Unless it was revenge (though going by her reaction, that didn't seem to be the case).

Umm, very simple answer - train the people so they don't go over to the Dark Side. You may have had a point if being a Jedi was about casting space spells. It's not. You don't have a point.

So the Jedi Order was a indoctrination camp, basically? And they weren't doing a very good job at it... Dooku and Anakin were both highly regarded Jedis before they turned.

This logic also make me wonder what HoloGollum meant by "finishing the training" of Kylo. The guy was self-admittedly a lot weaker than Rey; if force abilities can't be augmented by training, then he has no hope of beating her.

 

[Drathnoxis]

Umm, very simple answer - train the people so they don't go over to the Dark Side. You may have had a point if being a Jedi was about casting space spells. It's not. You don't have a point.

How is being a Jedi not about being able to cast space spells? Jedi are defined by their ability to use the force. If you can't use the force, you aren't a Jedi. Do we ever see a Jedi that has no force ability and is just a good and balanced person? No, therefore Jedi=space spells.

 

[DoPo]

Umm, very simple answer - train the people so they don't go over to the Dark Side. You may have had a point if being a Jedi was about casting space spells. It's not. You don't have a point.

How is being a Jedi not about being able to cast space spells? Jedi are defined by their ability to use the force. If you can't use the force, you aren't a Jedi. Do we ever see a Jedi that has no force ability and is just a good and balanced person? No, therefore Jedi=space spells.

Every dog has fur.

Therefore since this cat has fur, it's a dog.
s/dog/jedi/g
s/fur/the Force/g