Star Wars - The Force Awakens - Did J.J. Abrams and Disney Ruin Star Wars?

[babinro]

The Force Awakens wasn't created by George Lucas so love it or hate it the movie really isn't anything more than a glorified fan fiction. If someone feels the move shouldn't be cannon then turning to the expanded books is just as viable an option as they fall under the same circumstances.

I haven't seen this movie by the way but I have been spoiled to it because that's what you get for using a computer. From what I've heard since being spoiled this movie sounds like they played things too safe. It's essentially just Episode 4 again in the same way that Star Trek Into Darkness was a different way of retelling Wrath of Khan.

I'm happy to hear the reception has been mostly good to great and here's hoping I share that opinion when it's released on dvd. Hopefully episodes 8 and 9 can evolve the formula now that the nostalgia throwback movie is done.

 

[Fox12]

You know, I recall an interview with Alan Moore, where he said that fans were probably not the best people to write a character they enjoyed. There's certainly nothing wrong with with being a fan of something, but if a person was an obessive Spider-Man fan as a kid, and he grows up to write Spider-Man, then he's probably not going to be an objective writer. He's not going to write a work of fiction that is a story in itself, or introduce new ideas, he's going to pay reverent homage to a plot line that's now 20 years old, and that many of his readers are unaware of. The youngsters who read his work will likely grow to do the same, and the story will build a sense of reverence for itself. The problem is that, over time, this becomes rather incestuous, since you stop bringing in outside influences. And, just like real life, over time the incest begins to mutate the result into something a little... Weird.

Miyazaki made the same point about the modern anime market, since the people currently making anime are people who only watch anime or read manga.

I think they made a really good point, and I think that's the main reason I hated episode 7. It had just as many plot holes as the prequels, and I think people will realize that once the excitement wears off, and it's able to gestate in their mind a little bit. But for me it's cardinal sin is that it's totally derivative, and self agrandizing. I'm not sure people understand quite yet how unhealthy that is for the franchise.

 

[sagitel]

ok i need to ask this. every reviewer said that this movie pushes all the right nostalgia buttons. what if i dont have any? i didnt like the previous starwars movies so seeing millennium falcon or han solo wont do much for me. will this movie be still good without all the nostalgia pandering?

 

[Maniclings]

ok i need to ask this. every reviewer said that this movie pushes all the right nostalgia buttons. what if i dont have any? i didnt like the previous starwars movies so seeing millennium falcon or han solo wont do much for me. will this movie be still good without all the nostalgia pandering?

Don't bother spending the money to see it at the cinema. It really is just a comedy spoof of episode 4, lacking in every area but comedic value, and music.

The plot is full of more holes than a colander...

 

[Metadigital]

There is a surprising amount of vitriol in this thread for a movie that, by all accounts, is quite good.

I'm sorry some of you were expecting Jesus to ride down on a velociraptor and baptise the Millennium Falcon. That was never going to happen. It's just a movie, and by any reasonable movie standard, it's a good one. It's time to start recovering from the PTSD you got from the prequels and let yourself enjoy Star Wars again. It's going to be okay.

 

[Extra-Ordinary]

And this is why you don't read message boards, or youtube comments, before seeing a movie. Without fail, there will be spoilers, every, single, time! Good luck with that brain surgery. I understand the area around your temple contains vocabulary memory.

Vokabyoulairee? Naw, fridge, it went link, I feel carrot.

 

[Orga777]

You know, I recall an interview with Alan Moore, where he said that fans were probably not the best people to write a character they enjoyed. There's certainly nothing wrong with with being a fan of something, but if a person was an obessive Spider-Man fan as a kid, and he grows up to write Spider-Man, then he's probably not going to be an objective writer. He's not going to write a work of fiction that is a story in itself, or introduce new ideas, he's going to pay reverent homage to a plot line that's now 20 years old, and that many of his readers are unaware of. The youngsters who read his work will likely grow to do the same, and the story will build a sense of reverence for itself. The problem is that, over time, this becomes rather incestuous, since you stop bringing in outside influences. And, just like real life, over time the incest begins to mutate the result into something a little... Weird.

Miyazaki made the same point about the modern anime market, since the people currently making anime are people who only watch anime or read manga.

I think they made a really good point, and I think that's the main reason I hated episode 7. It had just as many plot holes as the prequels, and I think people will realize that once the excitement wears off, and it's able to gestate in their mind a little bit. But for me it's cardinal sin is that it's totally derivative, and self agrandizing. I'm not sure people understand quite yet how unhealthy that is for the franchise.

Well. What I gather from all that is that it is still better than the insulting and mishandled Prequel Trilogy. I will take more of the same over... that... any day of the week.

Of course, I haven't seen the movie yet. I was waiting for the general reaction and to learn more about the plot. I will be seeing it some time soon. However, I think people claiming it is the best movie ever are kidding themselves. Everything I gathered is that this thing MIGHT be a bit better than Jedi, but that is as far as I will go with the praise. It most certainly isn't better than A New Hope or Empire. It is the same thing with Jurassic World. Sure, it is better than the beyond garbage Lost World and JP3, but it still isn't THAT good a film, and is so much weaker than the original that it still seems like a pointless addition to the series.

 

[Foolery]

You know, I recall an interview with Alan Moore, where he said that fans were probably not the best people to write a character they enjoyed. There's certainly nothing wrong with with being a fan of something, but if a person was an obessive Spider-Man fan as a kid, and he grows up to write Spider-Man, then he's probably not going to be an objective writer. He's not going to write a work of fiction that is a story in itself, or introduce new ideas, he's going to pay reverent homage to a plot line that's now 20 years old, and that many of his readers are unaware of. The youngsters who read his work will likely grow to do the same, and the story will build a sense of reverence for itself. The problem is that, over time, this becomes rather incestuous, since you stop bringing in outside influences. And, just like real life, over time the incest begins to mutate the result into something a little... Weird.

Miyazaki made the same point about the modern anime market, since the people currently making anime are people who only watch anime or read manga.

I think they made a really good point, and I think that's the main reason I hated episode 7. It had just as many plot holes as the prequels, and I think people will realize that once the excitement wears off, and it's able to gestate in their mind a little bit. But for me it's cardinal sin is that it's totally derivative, and self agrandizing. I'm not sure people understand quite yet how unhealthy that is for the franchise.

I agree. This was bugging me the entire time I was watching the film. It feels like people 'playing at Star Wars' instead of just Stars being Star Wars. Like cosplay fan fiction, in the form of a movie.

 

[Remus]

And this is why you don't read message boards, or youtube comments, before seeing a movie. Without fail, there will be spoilers, every, single, time! Good luck with that brain surgery. I understand the area around your temple contains vocabulary memory.

Vokabyoulairee? Naw, fridge, it went link, I feel carrot.

Oh great, time for a cognitive recalibration. Just hit yourself really hard in the head. That's what seems to work in the movies.

 

[tzimize]

I found it to be a very good movie, not great but still a worthy entry in the series. I was impressed by Adam Driver. I have a feeling he may end up being what we wish Hayden Christiansen had been.

While I will wholeheartedly agree that Hayden was a disaster of galactic proportions I feel that Adam Driver was the most pathetic bad guy I've ever seen. He has ZERO menace to him, with or without the mask. And while I realize he's probably MEANT to be a bit pathetic, as to grow into his evilness over the trilogy...I'm pretty sure he'll fall short. Just like Hayden.

And also, unlike Anakin, I'm almost certain, when we do get his backstory, it'll be total garbage. I cannot imagine a scenario where someone with SO much going for him is going to fall to the dark. With Anakin, it was masterfully done. Really, if there is any reason to watch the middle trilogy, it Palpatines fantastic machinations, both politically in the Senate, and in emotionally manipulating Anakin.

Anakin didnt have anyone. The Jedi Council was suspicious of him, they wouldnt accept him or acknowledge his obvious talent, and they pushed him into spying on the one person that pandered to his vanity. His fall was brilliant and believable. His fear for losing his only family, first his mother and then his wife, was great stuff.

SPOILERS BELOW:

What did Kylo Ren have? A supertalented, experienced jedi, with the emotional maturity that comes from his experiences as a teacher, yes.
Parents that loved him, and lived, yes.
Why the hell should he fall? And fall as much as he did? I absolutely refuse to believe they will manage to make up a good explanation for this, but I will reserve final judgement untill the end of the trilogy.

 

[Metadigital]

SPOILERS BELOW:

What did Kylo Ren have? A supertalented, experienced jedi, with the emotional maturity that comes from his experiences as a teacher, yes.
Parents that loved him, and lived, yes.
Why the hell should he fall? And fall as much as he did? I absolutely refuse to believe they will manage to make up a good explanation for this, but I will reserve final judgement untill the end of the trilogy.

MORE SPOILERS (should be obvious):

There's a lot of ways to explain this, and personally, I think it felt a little more on the mark than the expanded universe's take on the New Jedi Order. Here's some easy examples of how it could have gone wrong:

1. Luke was trained for war, not as a mentor or diplomat like the traditional Jedi. Also, he was attempting to single-handedly train a new generation of padawans (note that Kenobi only had one and still failed).
2. Luke may have himself flirted with the dark side in between movies (or even during Jedi, such as when he force choked the guard in Jabba's palace). This may have tainted the training he gave.
2. Han and Leia aren't ideal parents. They're both intensely involved in their own ambitious, important, and very public lives as decorated war heroes / leaders / etc. It's common for people like this to send their kids away to be educated rather than brought up in a loving family environment.
3. Kylo Ren may have felt abandoned or inadequate when compared to the other force sensitives. His family name (Solo) may have put on a lot of expectations and demands (like with Anakin) which pushed him over the edge.
4. New sith lord obviously mentoring Ren. Perhaps his influence began during training leading to the betrayal.

Really, I could go on and on here. There's no end to reasons these events could have happened, and a limited imagination is no excuse to claimed that it was poorly planned. The first trilogy was poorly planned out. I'm sure this one has it covered well in advance.

 

[Scow2]

I found it to be a very good movie, not great but still a worthy entry in the series. I was impressed by Adam Driver. I have a feeling he may end up being what we wish Hayden Christiansen had been.

While I will wholeheartedly agree that Hayden was a disaster of galactic proportions I feel that Adam Driver was the most pathetic bad guy I've ever seen. He has ZERO menace to him, with or without the mask. And while I realize he's probably MEANT to be a bit pathetic, as to grow into his evilness over the trilogy...I'm pretty sure he'll fall short. Just like Hayden.

And also, unlike Anakin, I'm almost certain, when we do get his backstory, it'll be total garbage. I cannot imagine a scenario where someone with SO much going for him is going to fall to the dark. With Anakin, it was masterfully done. Really, if there is any reason to watch the middle trilogy, it Palpatines fantastic machinations, both politically in the Senate, and in emotionally manipulating Anakin.

Anakin didnt have anyone. The Jedi Council was suspicious of him, they wouldnt accept him or acknowledge his obvious talent, and they pushed him into spying on the one person that pandered to his vanity. His fall was brilliant and believable. His fear for losing his only family, first his mother and then his wife, was great stuff.

SPOILERS BELOW:

What did Kylo Ren have? A supertalented, experienced jedi, with the emotional maturity that comes from his experiences as a teacher, yes.
Parents that loved him, and lived, yes.
Why the hell should he fall? And fall as much as he did? I absolutely refuse to believe they will manage to make up a good explanation for this, but I will reserve final judgement untill the end of the trilogy.

Do you really not know any middle-class well-off teenagers that go emo/goth/'gangsta'? Fortunately for the world, most teenage rebels don't really have a lot of power and get over their idiocy. Unfortunately, losers like Kylo Ren have too much power and end up monsters because of it.

He's like the inverse of Anakin. Anakin was a flawed person trying to be good, but cracked under the strain of his own inadequacies and flaws ("I'm not the Jedi he thinks I am!"). Ren is a 'good' person trying to be bad to make some noise and a name for himself. Unfortunately, starting a garage band and screaming "FUCK DA POLICE! LETS START A RIOT!" while strumming on a guitar isn't an option a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.

I think that now that this movie has been an effective "Rally the Fanbase" one, the next ones will be much better. Not a great standalone movie, but an excellent 'consolidate/clean up the past and lay the foundation for the sequels" movie.

Also - I love how the Stormtroopers and TIE Fighters are actually competent, even if they can't face the Plot Armor of the heroes.

Hopefully now that the previous trilogies have been dealt with, the sequels have space to be their own thing.

 

[FPLOON]

"135 minutes long"? Huh... It felt longer than that...

Other than that, why do I feel like Episode 8 (and/or 9) is going to make some people go "Now, I can like/enjoy Episode 7"?

 

[Crazy Zaul]

I was skeptical even after everyone said it was good, but all of the things that could have been bad weren't. Even my biggest problem, that none of how the galaxy got to its current situation from ROTJ that isn't explained, is actually pretty much explained on starwars.com (yeh, in an everythings on Reddit/Wookiepedia world who would have thought star wars stuff is on starwars.com) in the databank there.

 

[Bobular]

I found it to be a very good movie, not great but still a worthy entry in the series. I was impressed by Adam Driver. I have a feeling he may end up being what we wish Hayden Christiansen had been.

When I left the movie the first thing I said was that I wish he'd played Anakin, Ren seems to be a whiny teen turned to the dark side done right. I'm looking forward to seeing his arc and hope to see him transition into the awesome Darth Vader he clearly wants to be.

 

[Telefonegun]

Force Awakens should have been a better movie. Most of all it felt like a high production fan movie. The cover says Star Wars, and true it is more coherent than the prequels but far from orginal trio. Force Awakens is in all in the good and bad: Star Trek Star Wars. I'm not really your average Star Wars fan but after all one must give some credit to JJ, he must have been in a enermous pressure by crazy SW fans, money hungry Disney executives and by the actors and whole production team. Several actors were criminally underused (Sydow) while others were overused (Boyega). Many key scenes should have been written and directed differently.

Spoiler

Why did Kylo Ren take his mask off before the big scene with Han? It makes no sense. Rey seemed too quickly match Ren with force powers without any guidance and teaching. Especially the final fight scene strike me ass odd, I expected to Luke to make his apprearence at the end by saving Rey from Kylo Ren. Isntead our not even padawan beats the dark sith 10-0. And Deathstar 3.0, why?.. well it was given away by the movietrailers already.

To me the most "starwarsy" of this movie was the BB8 robot. BB8 was a total success in absense of R2D2, in fact it was total surprise for me as I expected it to be just another Jar Jar.

 

[Jandau]

The film is alright, but the frustrating thing is that it was so close to being great. It has solid characters, good dialogue, nails the visual style, looks and sounds great, the atmosphere is there, even a genuine sense of humor. But a few elements really let it down...

1. Pacing. Particularly in the first half of the film, the action scenes are too long and too plentiful. I'm not saying it should be a snorefest, but tone it down by, say, 10% and devote that runtime to a bit of exposition, character moments, background, etc. By the time the second half rolls around, I felt fatigued by the constant action. It no longer seemed cool and exciting. This is Filmmaking 101, but then again, it's Abrams directing, so I don't know what I was expecting...

2. Context. Basically, what the hell happened since the Return of the Jedi? Why is there a Rebellion if there's a Republic? Is there still an Empire? Did it collapse? Was it coopted by the First Order? Why don't the Rebels have more than a few X-Wings when they had an entire fleet throughout the original trilogy? How exactly are the planets that were blown up significant? And so on and so forth... These are all questions that could be answered in a few minutes and would go a long way towards making the audience feel more invested in the action. This ties in to my previous point and would go hand in hand with better pacing.

3. Kylo Ren. I like the concept of him - a villain who's also only now growing into his powers. Young, conflicted, inexperienced, hoping to one day fill Vader's shoes. But I don't think he quite sells it, and again, a big part of it is that he doesn't get room for proper characterization, which in turn ties into 1 & 2 I mentioned above. Giving his character more room to breathe would make him work a LOT better. He's intended as a more personal threat than Vader (who was basically a force of nature), but that also means he requires more screen time, and not just in action scenes.

A lot of this can be fixed by "head canoning" it into a semblance of sense, but I shouldn't HAVE to do that. It all comes down to the fact that Abrams is kinda shit as a director. Granted, he's more suited to Star Wars as opposed to Star Trek (which he mangled into oblivion IMHO), but I can't help but hope that they give better directors a crack at the franchise in future installments and spinoffs.

At least it's not bad and revives the spirit of Star Wars, giving me hope for the future...

 

[Synigma]

Okay I haven't seen it but in the first paragraph you started to lull me into trusting you THEN answered my biggest question; What was the McGuffin (it was obviously in the droid but I knew it wasn't the death star plans this time)

I can't say I'm too mad... I was on the fence whether I should look it up or not, opting for not just because I didn't want anything else ruined. So I guess I should say thank you.

 

[tzimize]

SPOILERS BELOW:

What did Kylo Ren have? A supertalented, experienced jedi, with the emotional maturity that comes from his experiences as a teacher, yes.
Parents that loved him, and lived, yes.
Why the hell should he fall? And fall as much as he did? I absolutely refuse to believe they will manage to make up a good explanation for this, but I will reserve final judgement untill the end of the trilogy.

MORE SPOILERS (should be obvious):

There's a lot of ways to explain this, and personally, I think it felt a little more on the mark than the expanded universe's take on the New Jedi Order. Here's some easy examples of how it could have gone wrong:

1. Luke was trained for war, not as a mentor or diplomat like the traditional Jedi. Also, he was attempting to single-handedly train a new generation of padawans (note that Kenobi only had one and still failed).
2. Luke may have himself flirted with the dark side in between movies (or even during Jedi, such as when he force choked the guard in Jabba's palace). This may have tainted the training he gave.
2. Han and Leia aren't ideal parents. They're both intensely involved in their own ambitious, important, and very public lives as decorated war heroes / leaders / etc. It's common for people like this to send their kids away to be educated rather than brought up in a loving family environment.
3. Kylo Ren may have felt abandoned or inadequate when compared to the other force sensitives. His family name (Solo) may have put on a lot of expectations and demands (like with Anakin) which pushed him over the edge.
4. New sith lord obviously mentoring Ren. Perhaps his influence began during training leading to the betrayal.

Really, I could go on and on here. There's no end to reasons these events could have happened, and a limited imagination is no excuse to claimed that it was poorly planned. The first trilogy was poorly planned out. I'm sure this one has it covered well in advance.

SPOILERS:

Well...from my point of view you're listing reasons for a teenage rebellion. Going to the dark side and comitting patricide is quite a lot more than a teenage rebellion. And no matter how maladjusted Leia and Han might have been, they are both good people, as are Luke, fighting for the good side. There is no way someone grows up in the aftermath of the absolute horrors of the empires deeds and decideds the rebels are the bad guys. There is just no way.

Being a troubled teenager is one thing. Deciding to fight for the side that blows up planets...is something else. "Boohoo I didnt get enough attention from my dad, I better destroy a star system." ....what?....no. Just no.

 

[UsefulPlayer 1]

I agree that the movie might have walked some conventional lines...

The movie basically repeats Episode 4 almost scene for scene. But I think the movie was still a blast, especially when it did find the courage to do its own thing. The final battle in the snow? Cinematic Masterpiece. Whoever thought up that scene deserves a raise.