Starfield - No Man's Bethesda

CriticalGaming

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and yet in them too you can spend weeks doing basically nothing.
Being able to do nothing, and having nothing to do, are two completely different premises.

Those boring planets offer a sense of scope.
So make them gas giants, where you can't land on them anyway and let them provide that scope. Or just copy and paste the interesting planets to make stuff to do on every possible planet you can land on. Most players are not going to land on all 1000 planets anyway. Additionally the activities in Starfield and points of interest are already cut and paste so what difference would it make?

I get that space is a vast place but even in those games you mention, there are other aspects of gameplay to fill in those gaps. Can you go off into the nothingness? Sure. But you can also get into dynamic space battles and join factions, and build bases, and join player run businesses (in like Eve Online and such), fucking aliens!!!!. Starfield's boring shit isn't being compensated by the active gameplay imo. The game is held back by basically running on 15 year old gameplay elements and systems that don't work anymore.
 
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Ag3ma

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So make them gas giants, where you can't land on them anyway and let them provide that scope.
If they're effectively impossible to go to, they don't provide scope, they're just impassable terrain.

Or just copy and paste the interesting planets to make stuff to do on every possible planet you can land on. Most players are not going to land on all 1000 planets anyway. Additionally the activities in Starfield and points of interest are already cut and paste so what difference would it make?
Okay, but Starfield has enough planets with stuff going on to keep everyone who wants stuff to do busy. I just don't understand what the objection is to also having places to go which are uninhabited.

I get that space is a vast place but even in those games you mention, there are other aspects of gameplay to fill in those gaps. Can you go off into the nothingness? Sure. But you can also get into dynamic space battles and join factions, and build bases, and join player run businesses (in like Eve Online and such), fucking aliens!!!!. Starfield's boring shit isn't being compensated by the active gameplay imo. The game is held back by basically running on 15 year old gameplay elements and systems that don't work anymore.
If you want to make a point about the weakness of gameplay loops - that the quests are derivative, the FPS and space combat "adequate" without being good, that's a different complaint. One of the criticisms I saw about the first big city you get to is that it is dull in architecture and design: instead of looking like a place where the greatest architects in the species have demonstrated their post-Earth vision, it more has the feel of a generic city where the city planners just grabbed a load stock designs out of a catalogue.
 

CriticalGaming

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Okay, but Starfield has enough planets with stuff going on to keep everyone who wants stuff to do busy. I just don't understand what the objection is to also having places to go which are uninhabited.
Uninhabited is fine, I'm not saying there should be people or even aliens on every planet. But every planet should have SOMETHING on it. An abandoned dig site where you can find resources, or lost pirate loot, or contra-band to try and smuggle, new planets and/or animals to scan for rare crafting supply. SOMETHING! Not just bared nothings.
 

FakeSympathy

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Uninhabited is fine, I'm not saying there should be people or even aliens on every planet. But every planet should have SOMETHING on it. An abandoned dig site where you can find resources, or lost pirate loot, or contra-band to try and smuggle, new planets and/or animals to scan for rare crafting supply. SOMETHING! Not just bared nothings.
Exactly! I feel like even FO4 with its flaws, the "barren" wastleland and its locations worked because they had interesting things going on. I.E. the ruins of other vaults, schools that had last thoughts of students and faculties, etc.

Plus, it wasn't bloated af.
 
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CriticalGaming

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Exactly! I feel like even FO4 with its flaws, the "barren" wastleland and its locations worked because they had interesting things going on. I.E. the ruins of other vaults, schools that had last thoughts of students and faculties, etc.

Plus, it wasn't bloated af.
And there are ways in which barren areas can be good. Usually it adds to the world, but the traversal through the barren landscape is in order to reach a point of interest. That does not work when all that exists is barren landscape, in that regard it just makes the game empty and unfinished, making the barrenness serve no purpose other than to provide physical space within the game. That is not the way to do it.
 

meiam

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Exactly! I feel like even FO4 with its flaws, the "barren" wastleland and its locations worked because they had interesting things going on. I.E. the ruins of other vaults, schools that had last thoughts of students and faculties, etc.

Plus, it wasn't bloated af.
That's how they work, they have some randomly generated point of interest every 1000 meter or so (movement speed is pretty high so its takes less than 5 min to get there) and some of these are part of quest chain so presumably hand crafted.

The point of having 1000 planets draw into the outpost system, but you're really not forced to interact with them, you can just land right next to the quest location, clear it and get back on your ship and ignore the area. If you go trough them it's just to scan fauna and mine, neither of which are that important.
 

Ag3ma

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And there are ways in which barren areas can be good. Usually it adds to the world, but the traversal through the barren landscape is in order to reach a point of interest. That does not work when all that exists is barren landscape, in that regard it just makes the game empty and unfinished, making the barrenness serve no purpose other than to provide physical space within the game. That is not the way to do it.
Nope.

It is absolutely fine that you do not have the soul of an explorer - we all have our different angles. But kindly don't tell those of us that do that we're not allowed gameplay.
 

CriticalGaming

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Nope.

It is absolutely fine that you do not have the soul of an explorer - we all have our different angles. But kindly don't tell those of us that do that we're not allowed gameplay.
Is it exploring if there is nothing to find?
 

BrawlMan

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Nope.

It is absolutely fine that you do not have the soul of an explorer - we all have our different angles. But kindly don't tell those of us that do that we're not allowed gameplay.
Is it exploring if there is nothing to find?
You both might as well agree to disagree and move on. Neither of you are getting anywhere, but I agree with Critical in this case. BTW @CriticalGaming, my brother sold his Series X (well I had to help sell it for him and transfer the money back to him), so he's not playing Starfield either. He might have his Series S, but I don't see that lasting long.
 

Baffle

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This ran like dogshit until I moved it to my SSD, then it was okay but is hogging too much space on my small SSD. I've only played for about an hour so I can't really form an opinion yet, and I'm not totally sold on not refunding it yet either. I'm not bothered by the somewhat dated graphics though; unless I'd read other people complaining about them I'm not sure I'd have thought about them much at all. Menu system is rubbish in these inexperienced hands.
 

CriticalGaming

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You both might as well agree to disagree and move on. Neither of you are getting anywhere, but I agree with Critical in this case. BTW @CriticalGaming, my brother sold his Series X (well I had to help sell it for him and transfer the money back to him), so he's not playing Starfield either. He might have his Series S, but I don't see that lasting long.
Why did he ditch the xbox? He swapping for a ps5?
 

BrawlMan

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Why did he ditch the xbox? He swapping for a ps5?
He already had the PS5 after getting the Series X first. He still has his PS5. My bro does have an Alienware laptop too, but he sold his Series X for some extra cash he needed. Though I highly doubt he was going to play Starfield either way.
 

CriticalGaming

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He already had the PS5 after getting the Series X first. He still has his PS5. My bro does have an Alienware laptop too, but he sold his Series X for some extra cash he needed. Though I highly doubt he was going to play Starfield either way.
Can just play it on the laptop if he gets that interested in it.
 

Gergar12

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Modders to the rescue! Although I think even they'll be restricted to what they can add to the game.
Do you have any idea how long it took for the flyable Vertibird in Fallout 4


 
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I... do not agree with you.

Again, the sort of games we're looking at here for comparison are No Man's Sky and Elite: Dangerous.

These are perfectly good games in their own right - and yet in them too you can spend weeks doing basically nothing. E: D has simulated the galaxy: literally billions of systems, tens-hundreds of billions of planets/moons, and outside a core area of a few tens of thousands of systems, most of those systems have basically nothing but proc gen stars and planets. One icy moon is much like another. There's nothing on most of them except the odd mineral cluster you can pick up. And yet thousands of players will explore them anyway, just for the sake of it. After seven years with a few million players, I think about 1% of those systems have ever been visited. And just occasionally, you do stop and realise the view from a particular point is really fucking beautiful, because the proc gen also ends up creating some wonders. You won't see it unless you go out there, and some of us are prepared to put up with the routine to catch those moments.

There's a tiny, weeny, little chunk of the E: D galaxy in the middle of nowhere, about 50-10 light years in diameter, which you can visit and almost every one of those systems shows me as the first player to discover it. Just routine: jumped to the system, fired off the discovery scanner, maybe scanned the planets (if worth the bother), left. No space pirates, no trading, no mining, no alien ruins. It wasn't "exciting" as such, and yet I loved it. That's my little area of the E: D galaxy, that I picked pretty much at random, on a whim decided to make mine. And it felt good.

Those boring planets offer a sense of scope. They mean there's a vastness out there, a place beyond the frontier, places people haven't really gone. You don't really need to use them, but they do actually give something. How utterly weird and claustrophobic would it be, with the whole expanse of the galaxy, that there's only 50 worlds and loads of shit going on on all of them? So yeah, there's 1000 planets and maybe 950 of them are kind of not worth the bother for many players. And yet I suspect their absence would still fundamentally change how the game would feel: it would no longer be a sense of exploration, of humanity expanding across the stars.

NMS and E: D show there's an appetite for this stuff out there. I certainly accept that some people want to play Skyrim: a meticulously crafted place from corner to corner, filled with carefully curated stuff to engage the player (even if plenty of it is still routine kill/fetch quests). If those Skyrim types "don't get it", it's no big deal. Other players do.
Whole different genre but this “nothing to do” angle reminded me of this -

 
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Ag3ma

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Is it exploring if there is nothing to find?
Imagine taking a walk in the countryside. You're not necessarily going on the walk to see or do anything specific, but that doesn't mean there isn't anything to see and do. The purpose is the walk itself and just seeing what's out there and taking in the experience.

It's not for everyone, and that's fine.
 
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sXeth

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Imagine taking a walk in the countryside. You're not necessarily going on the walk to see or do anything specific, but that doesn't mean there isn't anything to see and do. The purpose is the walk itself and just seeing what's out there and taking in the experience.

It's not for everyone, and that's fine.
Generally the countryside isn't a hostile environment that can instakill you if you take one wrong step though, nor do you get there with a flying craft and (presumably) potential remote technology that could equally show you everything without so much as landing.

More to the point though, NMS from the outset was positioned as an exploration game (before taking more of a pivot towards base building/survival, and later pseudo-MMO stuff), Elite is specifically meant to be a space simulator. Starfield is, despite a handful of bare acknowledgements to other things. A story driven game. And while you can have downtimes and things in your story setting that are there for scope, you usually won't bother actively presenting them because its a waste of everyones time and resources in that context.
 
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Baffle

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Starfield is, despite a handful of bare acknowledgements to other things. A story driven game. And while you can have downtimes and things in your story setting that are there for scope, you usually won't bother actively presenting them because its a waste of everyones time and resources in that context.
I don't know, that's what I spent an awful lot of my RDR2 time doing, just riding around and cowboying it up.